Author Topic: Myer (Read 22937 times)

bittenyakka · « **on:** December 14, 2006, 07:00:08 PM »

I am going out on a limb but there is a reason this is the hypothetical section

On the 23rd of December as 14:00 a fire is reported in the white goods department of the Myer store. initial reports are coming from fixed alarms and people on lower floors seeing smoke come across the void space in the center of the store.

For those who haven't spent the extreme amounts of time in Myers that I have the store has 6 floors including the ground floor and each floor 1-5 has a void space that enables you so see all the way down to the ground floor. Other than that each floor is essentiall open level space.

For the sake of this hypothetical the fire has some form of accelerant and is burning quite intensely. Essentially I am asking how you fight a well involved fire in such an open indoor environment. Both with and WITHOUT sprinklers.

5271rescue · « **Reply #1 on:** December 14, 2006, 07:10:32 PM »

wont have to worry about it the MFS will take care of it.....well if its fully involved would go to a 9th alarm crews would connect to both the sprinkler and hydrant boosters(lots of hose work) direct attack would be the best tactic as long as its save to do so the biggest problem you will face is the people trying to get out and those trying to get in looking for loved ones. the will have spread but the sprinkler system should hold it till crews are able to get in and get to work.

Ryan · « **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2006, 07:50:05 PM »

Send in a mixture of crews to combat the fire and assist in getting people out, search for those trapped which could be yonug kids hiding, seperated in the mayhem, old people trying to get out disorientated. from memeory the whitegoods is near a window so if possible get bronto aiming in. Have crews in venting to let heat escape and smoke get out.

SA Firey · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2006, 02:44:43 PM »

Quote from: 5271rescue on December 14, 2006, 07:10:32 PM

wont have to worry about it the MFS will take care of it.....well if its fully involved would go to a 9th alarm crews would connect to both the sprinkler and hydrant boosters(lots of hose work) direct attack would be the best tactic as long as its save to do so the biggest problem you will face is the people trying to get out and those trying to get in looking for loved ones. the will have spread but the sprinkler system should hold it till crews are able to get in and get to work.

MFS will take care of it will they? They had four second alarm jobs the other day, leaving them very short and guess who filled the void for them at their stations....CFS

So if it went 9th alarm, grab your PBI fellas and head on down to the city as well.Use your CFB techniques well, and you will save many lives

fire03rescue · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2006, 04:16:34 PM »

I think by the time the CFS was in the city, anyone inside would be toast !

5271rescue · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2006, 04:18:15 PM »

Call in air support............

SA Firey · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:51:05 PM »

Quote from: 5271rescue on December 15, 2006, 04:18:15 PM

Call in air support............

Nah they would be in the "no fly zone" and the F-18's will get scrambled to shoot them out of the sky

RescueHazmat · « **Reply #7 on:** December 16, 2006, 03:27:03 PM »

A 9th alarm hey...

I haven't been in the centre recently, and am unaware of their fire supression systems.. I would assume the sprinkler system would heavily contain, if not extinguish the fire.. (Not to mention drowning everything around it resulting in exposures being fairly well protected..

Hopefully you can contain the fire quickly.. As essentially it would be extremely difficult after the fire took hold..

(But that is rather obvious...)

SA Firey · « **Reply #8 on:** December 17, 2006, 12:09:36 PM »

Yeah thats right we would normally go to a 9th alarm grass/scrub before that ever happened

medevac · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2006, 01:31:01 PM »

9TH ALARM.... does that even exist?

and if so would probably comprise of mroe appliance than there are in service with MFS.

Camo · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2006, 01:39:00 PM »

Technically alarms only exist up to 4th alarm in MFS & CFS but if you request appliances beyond that then of course you can calculate more then that, its just not recognised.

A 4th Alarm Fire in Adelaide depending on the location will more then likely see at least 1 cfs appliance at the scene and a whole heap doing COQ's.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2006, 03:40:09 PM »

so this type of incident is really stretching the resources in Adelaide.

Alan (Big Al) · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2006, 03:53:08 PM »

Thats why MFS have diffrent risk categories because a 4th alarm A risk will stretch MFS to the limit but a fourth alarm C risk would only pull a few stations???

Camo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2006, 04:00:30 PM »

Quote from: Mundcfs on December 17, 2006, 03:53:08 PM

Thats why MFS have diffrent risk categories because a 4th alarm A risk will stretch MFS to the limit but a fourth alarm C risk would only pull a few stations???

I would presume so. A small C Risk structure wouldnt require 5 Aerials and 10 Pumps like an A Risk structure would.

RescueHazmat · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2006, 04:04:41 PM »

A 4th alarm C risk would still stretch things out quite considerably, however you are correct, obviously the higher the risk, the more appliances and crew will be at the scene..

Mitcham Shopping Centre is a good example, I believe that went 4th alarm. Multiple CFS appliances did COQ for SAMFS, and a couple even attended the scene.

RE 9th alarm.. No, it would never be upgraded to a 9th alarm as such.. The highest the alarm structre is equated to is 4th alarm (A/B/C) risk. Technically even a 9th alarm rural fire does not exist.. Anything over a third would result in strike team response, again, if you worked out each strike team to the quota of appliances I guess you could estimate an alarm value.. However it would not be recognised..

The MYER centre would have specific risk and response plans on database for varying types of response. Then factoring upgrading of alarms to that response.. With the push of a key SAMFS COMCEN would know who to respond and who to fill in COQ from the initial call to when the third/fourth alarm was announced.

(Hopefully you contain it before it gets that far)

Alan (Big Al) · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2006, 04:12:27 PM »

So how does the risk category work??? Is it C risk= Domestic/Small Commercial
B risk= Mid sized Commercial/Institution
A risk= Large commercila/institutional?

?

Camo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2006, 04:54:46 PM »

Quote from: RescueHazmat on December 17, 2006, 04:04:41 PM

A 4th alarm C risk would still stretch things out quite considerably, however you are correct, obviously the higher the risk, the more appliances and crew will be at the scene..

Mitcham Shopping Centre is a good example, I believe that went 4th alarm. Multiple CFS appliances did COQ for SAMFS, and a couple even attended the scene.

A shopping centre is a C risk? I would of thought B. Anyway.

Mitcham is a little different as that is in the far south of the city. Like i said depending on where the fire is would depend on the response from cfs.

medevac · « **Reply #17 on:** December 17, 2006, 05:39:00 PM »

not sure where u interpreted that from Camo...

a shopping centre would be an A or B risk, depending on the potential risk to life.... im not sure exactly how the system works...

but a C risk would be a domestic dwelling or a shed type structure.

A's would be your hospitals, and high rise apartment type buildings

5271rescue · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2006, 05:52:10 PM »

sorry NSW use up to 10th alarm

bittenyakka · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2006, 06:29:57 PM »

Quote from: RescueHazmat on December 17, 2006, 04:04:41 PM

The MYER centre would have specific risk and response plans on database for varying types of response. Then factoring upgrading of alarms to that response.. With the push of a key SAMFS COMCEN would know who to respond and who to fill in COQ from the initial call to when the third/fourth alarm was announced.

(Hopefully you contain it before it gets that far)

Does this mean that each of the large structures in the city has response plans worked out if the first responding appliances confirm a fire that MFA COMCEN can essentially open a book and go down a list calling respective MFS appliances and CFS to COQ into these stations.

Does risk A/B/C also get determined on the basis of surrounding structures.

Camo · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2006, 07:28:01 PM »

Yepo thats what response plans are all about. Alot of CFS brigades should have these as well for there local risks.

Not sure but i dont think surrounding structures do much unless they are joined?

Sorry misinterpreted something rescue hazmat said. I was presuming a shopping centre would be an A or B due to the amount of people in these buildings.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2006, 07:58:17 PM »

Well The Myer Center is attached to the old David Jones building Via a enclosed walkway.

This makes me wonder Do you think that your brigades have enough response plans?

Robert-Robert34 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2006, 08:36:57 PM »

If a fire were to happen in Myers the shopping centre fire wardens would be the first responders by evacuating shoppers and staff as well as attempt to extinguish the fire

Bearing in mind myers does have a FIP so technically MFS would be dispatched right away after the fire indication panel is activated but still the fire wardens would attempt to keep the fire from destroying so much until MFS crews arrive

SA Firey · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2006, 09:27:19 PM »

This should clear up a few things...direct from MFS officers handbook.

RISK CATEGORIES/ATTENDANCE SCHEDULE

RISK"A"
1.All areas oer individual building four floors and above
2.Oil and gas refineries installations
3.Ships
4.Special target risks invoving very high hazard industrial,commercial or life risks

1st Alarm 3 pumps and aerial
2nd Alarm 3 Pumps,aerial,BA Tender,Fire Command Vehicle
3rd Alarm 3 Pumps
4th Alarm 3 Pumps

RISK "B"
1.Industrial building and complexes not in A.4.
2.Large shopping and commercial centres
3.Hospitals,rest homes other than in A.1.
4.Public Buildings,grandstands,hotels, cinemas

1st Alarm 3 Pumps
2nd Alarm 3 Pumps and Aerial,BA Tender,Fire Command Vehicle
3rd Alarm 3 Pumps
4th Alarm 3 Pumps

RISK "C"
1.Residential areas
2.Small shopping and commercial areas
3.Small industrial buildings

1st Alarm 2 Pumps
2nd Alarm 2 Pumps
3rd Alarm 2 Pumps BA Tender,Fire Command Vehicle

Command and Control
Phase 1 Initial Control 1st Alarm
Phase 2 Incident control Centre-2nd Alarm plus
Phase 3 Fire Command-Follow on from Phase 2

In addition to these a Safety Officer also responds to the incident

bittenyakka · « **Reply #24 on:** December 18, 2006, 03:17:10 PM »

Thanks that sorts out some issues.

But can a CFS OIC request MFS aerials if he or she thinks it is needed?