Mount Barker Pumper

[JamesGar]

Heard that Mt Barker have finally been delivered the Re-furbished imported 13 year old Dennis Pumper which now apparently meets the ADR's and has been met with some 'interest' in the Barker brigade. I'd be interested to hear from someone in the Heyson Group what they think! I believe it looks good, but has some problems like lack of engine back/retarder and old style turnpipe lock valve instead of the 90 degree stop lever valves on most appliance

Any thought on importing further appliance to save money

How about a truck design for cold nothern hemisphere weather not 40 decree Aussie days

[Good times]

Just think mate, what is Belair pumper going to be replaced with?

Whats the issue with screw type valves, the brits seem to get on well with them, if not they would have been replaced long ago.

I was under the impression that it was to be fitted with an exhaust brake, but come to think of it those of us using the delivery trucks in a heavily built up urban environment with heavy traffic conditions are not using anything better, even if its new!!

And in regards to the heat factor, where are scania's from? Sweden!
These trucks are fitted with the same cummins engine you find on any other Aussie truck, so I can't see it being a huge issue, perhaps the air intake might be, but we will find out.

But having said that, I don't think we should settle for them as a be all and end all fix. Maybe an interum messure to buy some time.

But let me put this to you, all of us with the heavy urban pumpers are fast approaching or have gone long past the useby date, but what are we faced with? We built these trucks for a reason, and funnily enough they are still performing better than many new trucks 20 + years later.

One thing you are getting with a Dennis is a large pump that can boost efficiently, has 2x 60 m hp lines (prefer 90) massive amount of locker space and BA seats in the cab, with a higher HP engine, auto gearbox. I have more opinions on what we should have but have woffled too much as it is. So just think what you are faced with other than a Dennis before dismissing them outright.

[strikeathird]

Compared to alot of the Urban pumpers that are being offered at the moment, I would take the Dennis any day....

[fire03rescue]

How do the Mount Barker crew like the newish Dennis ??
or has anyone seen it in action
Any pictures

[Good times]

I will tell you this, New Zealand love them, I understand they are nearly up to 40 purchased so far, this is to replace all the ACCO pumpers, so I might be wrong but that tells me they are pretty good.

[JamesGar]

Sorry Good Times, Hope I didn't come across too negative about the Dennis Pumper. I'm only relaying the thoughts of an Officer at Barker that I was speaking to yesterday!

As for the concept I'm all for trying other equipment and my understanding is that the Dennis with a 1000gpm pump is an internationally recognised excellent fire appliance, Good appliance to drive (fast I believe, but that raises obvious concerns for me), excellent brake and turning circle (that would be nice in the hills). My only issue with the turn pipe valve's is I believe all other CFS appliances have the 90 degree turn valve, and I like to keep things relatively standard across a fire service.

BA seats are a great concept, but on all operator will end up in the BA seats, (ie in our brigade all the drivers are qualified BA operator), 1 see two definite advantages in being able to get straight to work at a going fire, and additional locker space!

2x60 metre hose reels is better than only getting one 75 hp line like on the Type 2 Skilled Pumper.

I'm led to believe that Belair is going to get a 24P when Pumper is up for retirement. I like the 24P in most incidences, but wonder how effective the pump will stand up to supply constant water for the Bronto or Abbey for MFS which Belair Pumper has had to do twice in the last 12 months. Personally I'd take a Dennis too. Not my choice though!

Cheers

[Good times]

I can tell you the 24P won't keep up with the bronto or abbey, and its got nothing to do with the pump, its the design  fault of the inlets and outlets, it has a distinct lack of both, you can only put out what water you can get in, and as it only has 2 of each it just can't keep up!! And for people who doubt that, try it, I have proven it on a booster system, pump could do it, just couldn't get enough water in.

Oh, apologies James, I didn't mean to have a go, I just want people like your brigades members and others like them to consider what is going to happen in the next few years when the current pumpers are due for retirement, its going to be a step backwards for many if you are not careful.

[JamesGar]

Nice to know about the 24P's capabilities, Considering there are a few boosters in the Belair/Blackwood Catchment will mean a bit of thought into Appliance placements. Kalyra Nursing Home has a Four outlet/Four Inlet booster so should probably get an appliance to boost with the same. Do the Skilled Type 2 Pumper have enough capability to cover this need?

What brigade are you from Goodtimes?

[rescue5271]

If you look at the cost of this 13 year old pumper and the cost of getting replacement parts then I would say that teh CFS will notbuy any more of these. I understand from a member high up the pole that the cost is the killer and the amount of time that it will take to get parts if needed will far out ride the cost of buying more of these pumpers.


Is the price fair for a unit that is 13 years old ?

Time to get more involved in what the volunteers want rather than supply a part time pumper,that is second hand we have a few good fire appliances maker's here in Australia who ahve full back up at the ready. I sure would like to hear what the barker brigade have to say in a few months about this unit.

[Good times]

The Type 2 is a medium pumper according to AFAC, it puts out 750 GPM, go to this link for all the specs

http://www.semfirerescue.com.au/vehicle_details.php?vehicle_id=2100

Its not a bad bus, might be as good as some of us can hope for, it has 4 in, 4 out, still manual, no BA in the cab, but they new model is turbo. These were designed by the NSWFB, and they are mass producing hundreds of them for the retained stations, the only criticism I have heard is the fact they should be auto as the ACCO's were, BA in the cab as the ACCO's had and the first model was gutless. Apart from that not bad.

Regarding the Dennis, I really can't see how they would be more expensive to fix than a normal aussie fire truck, after all, the only thing unique is the cab, anything else we use. This first one would have been just to get it right for ADR but anymore would be much easier because they know what to do, but we will wait and see what Mt Barker think.

[corocfs]

regarding a comment i made somewhere else...

why cant we get 4wd heavy pumpers built? or can we and i just dont hear about them?

surely they would be the obvious chocie for the CFS, the best of both world...

[Good times]

We could, but then ergonomics start to play havoc, and to get it right I think a heavier chassis would be needed such as an American or a European chassis, and most brigades that need them have a 4x4 appliance anyway, but there is no reason why not, the Europeans use M.A.N and the occasional Scania 4x4, the only way you would know is the diffs. But I think the Isuzu Type 2 is cheap for what you get so it will do.

[JamesGar]

I agree with Goodtimes. I think that the CFS should look at a standard Pumper, and the NSW CFA Type 2 pumper looks the goods for me, bar only one HP line and lack of BA in cab. The BA in cab can probably be rectified if needed though. As for Auto vs Manual in the Vehicle specs for the Type 2 there is an option for an Allison Auto Shift and there not bad (I think Belair Pumper currently runs with an Allison).

My view only but to run a standard fleet of the following would unify the service and make us look more professional:

- Type 2 Urban Pumper (Covering high Urban Treat and Risks, also can take both RCR - Heavy and Hazmat)
-24P (sorry Alex) but more the Izusu D/Cab with 3cylinder turbo Pump not PTO, this to cover Urban/Rural and Rural/URban areas
-34 for Rural
-14 for areas with difficult terrain (everywhere I know, but justified), or possibly a primary rural appliance in urban areas with pumpers as backup
-Tankers, but standardised. I personally like Belairs Tanker (no bias at all) but am still fond of Yankalilla's Old Forestry RFW (Rain Forest Wrecker!) Great vehicle as it can trully go where no other appliance can (6x6 with locking diffs!)
-Stand alone Rescues/Hazmat but only a few say 15 state wide, 2-3 per region.
-and of course Command Vehicles (hate to see GO's without a form of transport!)

Personally I believe QAV's should be dropped. Not enough water and not enough crew. As for CAFS, I'm not sold on it, and think there are a number of risks (i.e. 20-39 seconds at least until you get water from the nozzle and lack of ability to go to a fog quickly if you need crew protection) I am a little ignorant with CAFS though.

My thoughts only

[rescue5271]

I agree with james it is about time that we did have standard pumper for urban and urban fringe area's,I would not like to see $WD heavy pumpers as the NSW guys did play with this some years ago and the up keep of these units was more than the cost of the appliances that where built. The new type two pumper that eden hill's is getting is turbo and sure it only comes with one hp line but times have changed in how we deal with urban fires.

CAFS units have there good and bad points and they may work well in the STATES but lets face it the fire service there get alot more money that what we do here in Australia. Q.A. have there good points are great in some areas where there and not many members but also good in area's where you can't get a 24/34 into.


Each brigade/group has there own risk's and needs,we in the south east like our 34 units due to grass/blue gums/and forest risk's but also because we dont have water tankers down here other than what we can get from the council.It should be noted that in the cfs fleet in the south east we only have 3 pumpers,one at millicent,naracoorte and bordertown the MFS have two pumpers and a skyjet at gambier.

So has you can see we all have different needs around the state.

[Good times]

So has you can see we all have different needs around the state.

Well knock me down with a feather, you could not have said a more logical statement, pity they try to make the rest fit into what they have.

[JamesGar]

I see some OHS risks with a heavy duty 4wd Pumper. Alex just looking at 24P, anything stored high in your locker to me seems a risk as it's so high. Don't know if that's ever been a problem, but I'm 6'5" or 196cm tall and think I'd probably have a problem reaching some stuff up there. Let me know if I'm wrong. The answer could be airbag suspension on the back to lower the appliance, but that's big $'s. We've done it in SAAS though with the F350 Ford ambulance's in regional SA having self lowering suspension, open the back doors and it lowers 100mm, sounds great with a big hiss of air and looks impressive, but as I said $'s.

[corocfs]

cant say storage has ever been a problem with coro 24P, the only things that are stored above head height are blankets, so no real risk there at all.

also a comment that was made above about the type 2 pumpers not having BA in the cab. to me this seems a sensible idea. not having BA in the cab may mean an extra 1minute when you get to the job, but having it there also seems a slight safety risk to me. if someone was to fail to stow it properly, what would happen if the truck had to stop suddenly. also surely it would increase difficulty when dismounting from the truck if you had a set on? id rather get to the job then don it.

[JamesGar]

Definite advantage of having BA in Cab to safe locker space. This may be an advantage with some pumpers which carry both Heavy RCR and Hazmat Stowage.

I share your believes alex about OHSW risk, but surely we can gather some information from other service (including MFS) about incident statistic from these seats.

Other point though Alex is the 60sec+ at the scene may honestly be the difference is someones life if they're trapped in a house or burning car. Emotive point I know, but I thinks it's looks professional to get of the truck in BA and have the cold stuff on the hot stuff in under a minute, not like it is now where a crew takes 2-3minutes to don BA (realistic time, training times might be under a minute, but realistic job) and then a minute or so getting hoses on the run. BA Donning/Tallies and BA control could all be done prior to arrival with BA in Cab Systems.

[Good times]

Lets look at how long that the brits have been using our sets and had them installed in the cab, given the Mt Barker Dennis has BA in the seats its been at least 12 years. SAMFS use a lightweight cylinder so its a lot easier to get in and out, and look at it this way, if the concerns you bring up were a problem, then BA seats would never have taken off, even the CFA are putting them in their new Scania pumpers, so they must be an advantage, it should be more important for volly brigades because they are already behind the 8 ball for time, but as with everything, it comes down to the dollar! (except if your a volly in America)

[strikeathird]

Agree with JamesGar in regards to the unifying and standardising of appliances.

*Also believe we should have BA in the Cab
*90m High Pressure lines on the Urban Pumpers (and 2 of them)
*Non P.T.O driven pumps...  - If the need ever arrises to have to move an appliance, and there are crew on the end of Hose lines - Your stuffed.

[Good times]

I could not disagree more strikeathird, urban pumpers should have PTO pumps, becasue they are primarily stationary and if your fighting a fire in a structure I would be pretty damn annoyed if you drove off!! Also a PTO takes up stuff all room, and if you need to pump and roll you will find most of the older pumpers have a little one and a half Darley on board. Oh and if your pumpy is to stupid to take it out of PTO then whats he doing driving.

Oh and the noise too, you get a bit tired of dakka dakka dakka after a few hours!!

[JamesGar]

I've used both PTO and Engine Driven Pumps on numerous occasions now and for long term high pressure/high volume pumping I'd take a 2 or 3 stage PTO pump everyday. You can still move an appliance if you need and the noise levels are somewhat lower. No addition fuel lines and they may look complex but I've found the transition to a PTO pump easy.

Agree with Striker about all other points: BA Seats and HP lines though

[JamesGar]

Heard something new today. Possibility of a 34 Pumper. Similar concept to the 24P but a larger pump again. Sounds interesting and may fill the Urban/Rural appliance role better than the 24P's, I guess watch this space, hold your breath, but I won't... end up too blue in the face!

[Good times]

Well you can let your breath out, its no different apart from having a 3000 ltr tank rather than 2000, still a 500 gpm volume pump, but I will say they have evolved into a much nicer machine than the first effort. BUT they still are not a pumper.

[JamesGar]

Have you just seen plans GTimes or is one in production already. Skilled/Mills Tui or Moores?