SAAS Responding Other Services..

[sesroadcrashrescue]

i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working

[filtered]

i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working

That's totally harsh and uncalled for.

You are obviously removed from all reality of situations.

How about the pressure that Volunteer Ambulance Officers put on Volunteer Rescuers (be it CFS or SES) that they need the patient out of the vehicle 10 minutes ago and can't they go any quicker?  Then tell them stop and change their minds on how they want the patient extricated five times in ten minutes?

It sounds like you had a specific incident that needs to be sorted out in the correct manner - through your chain of command.  Whinging on this forum will not help the situation.

It is unfair that you tarnish every volunteer with your negative experience at one incident.  Get some perspective!



Oh, and punctuation helps get your message across a lot clearer...

[sesroadcrashrescue]

ok situations change we all know that! sometimes the traped person has a turn for the worst or a new injury shows its self so what would have been a simple side removal and bring them out that way is now a full inline extrication. i do know how RCR works i have been around RCR for hmmm the last 6 years. I know it is slow i know its a pain to do all i am saying is look at it from the saas point of view thik of it this way. you are an ambulance office at a MVA you have a traped person who you are working on, The rescue and fire services turn up and start sooking about the fact that SAAS has been there for 10 15 20mins already there in your face trying to push you and get you out of the road so they do the cuts they want to do it there way not even interested in what your trying to say pushing in leaning in over the top of you how would you handle that???  im 6ft 4in tall i dont need people leaning in over me i have enough problems trying to get in the car my self the last thing i want or need is having fire trucks and rescue crews turn up and telling me what to do how would you handle this hmmmm tell me that   

[Alan (Big Al)]

It's simple mate tell them to SHUT THE filtered UP!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously the crews in your area have some major issues with each other and need to sort them out.

We work with AO's alot down here and we don't have a problem working with them!

IF theres a problem bring it up afterwards through the chain of command and get it fixed or you lot will do more harm than good.

Remind me not to get into a VA at Kapunda, might die while everyone argues with each other.

[RescueHazmat]

Tell them, or their officer, to stand back and give you room and the time you need. If you have too, tell the Cop at the scene to get those who are hindering your efforts out of your face! (And if that includes other service members being pains in the asses, so be it.. If they are being a pain, they clearly don't respect the seriousness of the job.. Telling you to "hurry up" in your treatment is absurd..)

However, I agree with 'filtered'.. Don't allow one incident or negative experience at a job to make your mind up on every rescue operator.. And follow up from that negative experience and possibly have an Ops Debrief with the crews involved, and voice your concers with what happened at the job..


But I have to agree with Mundcfs, If you are being hassled by other services to "hurry up" so to speak, tell them to get knicked, and at the time, very clearly make it known they are hindering your efforts as an Ambo.. (People tend to take a step back when you shout at the top of your voice to their OIC that they are getting in your way and to have them pulled back).. They clearly have no idea as to the importance of patient stabalisation prior to extrication if they are acting in that way. . . (It would be a slightly diff. scenario if the fireys were saying.. " Hurry up mate, this LPG tank is about to let go " or something to that effect).

Must be something up your way, cause of all the jobs ive been too I have never seen anything like this..

[bittenyakka]

sesroadcrashrescue could you pleas break your slabs of writing into paragraphs or sentences rather

[bajdas]

ok situations change we all know that! sometimes the traped person has a turn for the worst or a new injury shows its self so what would have been a simple side removal and bring them out that way is now a full inline extrication. i do know how RCR works i have been around RCR for hmmm the last 6 years. I know it is slow i know its a pain to do all i am saying is look at it from the saas point of view thik of it this way. you are an ambulance office at a MVA you have a traped person who you are working on, The rescue and fire services turn up and start sooking about the fact that SAAS has been there for 10 15 20mins already there in your face trying to push you and get you out of the road so they do the cuts they want to do it there way not even interested in what your trying to say pushing in leaning in over the top of you how would you handle that???  im 6ft 4in tall i dont need people leaning in over me i have enough problems trying to get in the car my self the last thing i want or need is having fire trucks and rescue crews turn up and telling me what to do how would you handle this hmmmm tell me that   

Meet them at a social gathering, at the pub, hold a debrief, get advice from a SPAM team member, complete an exercise together, do whatever it takes to talk to the other organisations away from the stress of the incident.

Something has happened & if the crews do not resolve the issues by talking as adults, then the next victim will not get the professional assistance they need.

Yes, your role in a RCR is important to patient comfort & the ultimate outcome for the patient from the incident. But in other peoples eyes you are not the most important.

The victim is the most important.

So the crew will need to manhandle & sometimes push to get equipment into place, so they can do their job to assist the victim. I would imagine that this accidental push happens at all incidents.

Aim to become a team of people who 'roughly' work together in each skill set to get the injured person as safe as possible.

The first step is talking to someone about the issues. This is sometimes the hardest step to do...

** my opinion only **

[Pipster]

As I have said in previous postings, members of all services can be under extreme stress at a serious incident, no matter what the type of incident, and what service

All services, at some time, have to make life & death decisions - it is not the sole domain of Ambulance Officers.  

I pointed a loaded firearm at a person, who was coming at me with the knife...finger on the trigger, and all that was going through my mind, literally was "I'm going to have to shoot this prick"  Luckily, in the end, I didn't have to.

To me that is a pretty serious life & death decision.

There are many other people, in all of the emergency services, who have made, and will have to make, life and death decisions.

As for people getting in your way, or hassling you, there are perhaps a few issues -

one, as I posted earlier, is perhaps a lack of understanding by the different services, of exactly what the other service does (excluding those people in dual services, do you know EXACTLY what the other service is actually doing? - you know if there is an injury, that ambos deal with that, if there is a person trapped, then firies come & cut them out, and police turn up & investigate the cause..but how do they do that? )

While it is not necessary to know the specifics of what each service does,it does help if all services have an appreciation of what the other services do.

So, hold some joint training sessions - learn from each other - what each service does, how the other services can assist in specific situations.


Second, if you are an ambo, focusing on your patient, you may not be seeing the big picture - those other services "hassling" you might be because they can see things that you can't.

I have been to several road crashes, from an ambo, fire & police perspective - and certainly haven't encountered negative experiences, in terms of the behaviour of other services on scene - sure, various members of the various services might be very short with others, demanding things be done (rather than asking politely!), but once things have settled done, patients gone to hospital etc, the other services become much friendlier, not rude - and I understand that their behaviour during the incident is not being rude & pushy - just doing what has to be done at the time.... having an informal debrief at the scene can be very beneficial!

Pip

[JC]

sesroadcrashrescue it sounds like you really need to sit down with he local crews up there and do some serious training together, i am really shocked that any rescue person would be telling an AO how to do there job or to hurry up, all people rescue trained know and accept that a rescue is dictated by the AO's. Also if a patient is being resused in a car i would consider that time critial, and be asking the rescue crew to dismantal that car asap.

[Alan J]

as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged

Of course, if SAAS management honoured its agreement to respond other services, you wouldn't be getting grief (which you shouldn't anyway - that should be going back up the CFS food-chain). 

And this thread wouldn't exist.

(you really do need to use punctuation - 2/3 of your post was unintelligible gabble - SMS & chat habits only work for short no-brain stuff, not complex & important ideas & issues.)

[Smallflame]

i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working

Everyone is under a lot of stress at these jobs. The problem is the caveman mentality involved in whose tribe is first at the car... You guys need to grow up and have a nice big chat over what SHOULD happen at an RCR and train together...

I also have a headache from trying to decipher these posts you keep making. Is there any possibility of not having a wall of unpunctuated text in every thread please? Full stops, capitals and spaces don't generally take much longer to put in...

[Alan (Big Al)]

 
 1924962 09:43:05 16-11-07 SA82 Cat2 Moloney Rd, Virginia 39 F14 SAAS Road Crash Research



1909192 10:45:37 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 19 - 16/11/07 10:45,RESPOND RCR,MOLONEY RD,VIRGINIA, MAP 39 F 14 ,,CAR V TRAIN - DOUBLE FATALY - POSSIBLE INSECTICIDE SPILL - NITOFOL - GROUP 1B..POLICE MESS 383,VIRG19 DALK19*CFSRES: CFS Virginia Response

Gotta be sh***ing me.

[mack]

16:50:29 16-11-07 MB81 Cat2 Cnr Aldgate Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga
16:50:31 16-11-07 MB81 Cat2 Cnr Aldgate Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga

 MFS: INC # 66 - 16/11/07 17:07,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,CHURCH HILL RD,ECHUNGA, MAP 183 E 8
 ,,INT. OF ALGATE TO STRATH ROAD,CLEAN UP ONLY FROM SAAS,ECHG00
 MBKR19*CFSRES:

[chook]

Obviously they were having problems at SAAS today, they were getting better. We just got back from an Vehicle Accident
1909713 20:18:56 16-11-07 BE171 Cat2 Dalziel Rd, Winkie SAAS Berri
1918237 20:22:05 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 81 - 16/11/07 20:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,DALZIEL RD,WINKIE, MAP 000 0 0 ,,SINGLE CAR ROLLOVER, NO TRAPPED,BRI029 GLOS00*CFSRES: SES Berri1919306
20:22:16 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 81 - 16/11/07 20:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,DALZIEL RD,WINKIE, MAP 000 0 0 ,,SINGLE CAR ROLLOVER, NO TRAPPED,BRI029 GLOS00*CFSRES: CFS Glossop Response
so thats not to bad only 3 minute gap - nothing job both guys manage to get out of it with scatches.
Someone must have stuffed up today I hope the crews involved in that one are ok.
cheers
 

[SA Firey]

All I will say is that one day the worst case scenario will happen and maybe then the "It Will Never Happen" attitude go away.
Every crash is a potential emergency situation and those few minutes can be the difference between life or death.

[RescueHazmat]

 1924962 09:43:05 16-11-07 SA82 Cat2 Moloney Rd, Virginia 39 F14 SAAS Road Crash Research



1909192 10:45:37 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 19 - 16/11/07 10:45,RESPOND RCR,MOLONEY RD,VIRGINIA, MAP 39 F 14 ,,CAR V TRAIN - DOUBLE FATALY - POSSIBLE INSECTICIDE SPILL - NITOFOL - GROUP 1B..POLICE MESS 383,VIRG19 DALK19*CFSRES: CFS Virginia Response

Gotta be sh***ing me.

Were SAAS the Primary call takers?

[chook]

I'm not sure who that comment was aimed at mate, no body is saying that it"will never happen". Don't know about everyone else but my crew & I treat every job as an "emergency situation". I would (& have done) get rid of anybody who didn't!
The point is it was obvious that a mistake was made, hopefully those involved will learn & grow from it. Yes it was a very poor call to have a fire/ rescue responded 1 hour later - infact intolerable.
Sesrescues comments regarding the role of AO's seem over the top, also does this mean he/she is a member of two services?
Must admit never heard of the problems he describes occurring on a job, have had Junior (trainee) AO's making very stupid decisions, regarding removal of a PT instead of waiting for rescue (dragging a PT over a centre consol nil life threat) - reported the problem to there boss.
Had young CFS guys shouting the odds, pointed out that a) not their problem b) Quietly I'm the boss of a rescue not them - their Captain dealt with their youthful enthusiasm.
I might have said this previously but I will say it again, those who are in charge of Units, Brigades, Stations, Groups need to put their ego's in a tin & learn what each others roles is.
Also they need to manage their own teams, my guys are very clear on what is & what isn't acceptable behaviour on the scene and in relation to interaction with other services. Any filtered from them will bring Filtered from me " those who live in glass houses" Mind you it does help being appointed from above & not voted in .
In all honesty I thought this stuff had died off years ago.
cheers

[backburn]

Had young CFS guys shouting the odds, pointed out that a) not their problem b) Quietly I'm the boss of a rescue not them - their Captain dealt with their youthful enthusiasm.

when and where did this happen chook. not at your last mva.

[chook]

definitely not the crew I worked with last were as usual easy as to work with, a real pleasure.
No the incident happen a while ago due to a misunderstanding, easy when not all of the facts are not understood - nothing to write home about.
But as I said the crew I worked with last are a pure pleasure as are 99% of CFS/ MFS crews. cheers

[boredmatrix]

call me intuitive, but I'm detecting a lot of concern in relation to discrepancies between incident occurance times and how long it takes to dispatch other agencies.

many years ago, SAAS used to manage dispatch of it's crews locally.  Then it became a regional thing - and a regional comcen used to manage crews in a geographical area.  As of 4 years ago, the whole of SA's ambulance resources are all managed/dispatched from Eastwood - from calltaking right through to major incident management.

also at around the same time, SAAS management was having trouble getting road staff to work in the ComCen - so started employing civillians to undertake call-taking duties.  Slowly but surely this leached into civillians co-ordinating all ambulance resources state wide.  The guys who deal with regional ambulance co-ordination are generally on the ball and smart, but the one's who deal with metro and fringe metro ambulance co-ordination are civvy's who wouldn't know that their proverbial was on fire if they had the most expensive alarm fitted to their backsides! 

now - you can't blame them entirely (they've never worked on an ambulance......)- management are focussed on meeting targets and ensuring that their own proverbials are covered and that they won't be smacked by the coroner.

so where does this leave the practical bits of ambulance resource management?

.......not even your average paramedic or VAO seems to know any more...and the usual reply is "just do what and go where you are told!"

now I know that there are some VAO's and even a reasonably senior SAAS manager that read this forum - and guess that they probably won't have the same perspective or entirely agree with me - but at the end of the day - these monkeys in Eastwood simply sit in front of a computer, and feed the cases on one PC screen an Ambulance from the other PC screen - and tell the crews where to go on a radio.

as for specific agreements on when should fire services be involved in VA's?  I don't believe there is one - but I know that in Metro Adelaide - if we routinely called SAMFS for every single VA we attend - there would be appliances belting around the city almost as aimlessly as the ambulances which attend minor VA's more routinely than you have hot dinners.  SAAS don't carry patients from a fair majority of these, and there is generally no requirement for SAMFS to attend....and given that these monkeys in Eastwood sit in front of a screen and "co-ordinate" (sic) - it's little wonder that the same rationale is starting to emerge in country SA!

sorry this took so long......enough of a rant...I think I need to go on a holiday!!

btw - for the record - I enjoy and appreciate the work all firey's do! have some very good mates in both SAMFC and CFS!!

[Pipster]

I am not sure that the Coordinators at Eastwood are Civilians... of those I know (and I don't know them all ) they were ambulances officers (and presumably now paramedics- I knew them a long time ago!)....

But that is not really the issue.    Each service should have protocols to follow - presumably SAAS have those.  Civilian or otherwise, in any service, those protocols should be followed.

Why it didn't occur in this situation, who knows! 

Hopefully CFS will put through an issues form, and try & determine why the problem occurred.

In the situation at Virginia, in hind site, there was nothing CFS could of done....but when the next crash occurs, somewhere, it might be a different story...

Pip

[Alan J]

<snip>
as for specific agreements on when should fire services be involved in VA's?  I don't believe there is one - but I know that in Metro Adelaide -
<snip>

But there is a written agreement.  It's called the "Road Crash Rescue Memorandum of Understanding" or RCRMOU.  It is dated around 2000 (+/- a couple of years) & on one of the first few pages are the signatures of the CEO's of SAPol, MFS, CFS & SAAS.
From memory - it's a few years since I held a copy in my paws & read it - it says that the agency receiving the 000 call WILL respond the other 2 services. First arriving agency can stop-call the others if not required.
cheers

[boredmatrix]

you're right, there is the RCR MOU - but cyncically, I don't think it get's used a whole lot in SAAS comms.

pipster - you'll have to trust me that there are not a lot of AO's up in the SAAS comms room anymore!  I think we're up to about the 3rd or 4th "generation" of civvy's now. the guys who co-ordinate regional SA are the "old hands" and haven't worked on the road in years, but at least they have...and know what happens out there.  these new bods wouldn't have a clue!! They have about 10000 work instructions to try and follow, while the managers breathe down their necks, pushing them to meet targets such as response times, call recieved to despatch times etc. 

[mack]

aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.

that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...

[Alan J]

aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.

that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...

Nothing to do with procedures.  It's about price. 
People who actually know their stuff cost more than people who don't. 
And they are a lot harder to bully into cooperation with management
targets vs. core business.

Sad thing is that it more-or-less works for a while. Just long enough
fpor the manglers who introduce the system to collect their bonusses
& bolt. Then the wheels fall off.  Who here can spell "Intergraph"?