OPS Bulletin 29 - PPV Use

[misterteddy]

so after years of PPV use in service, and years of asking for a course to teach it properly as an offensive firefighting tool it would appear that its all too hard for our Fire Service too organise and deal with.

As Ops Bulletin 29 says....no more using it until post fire overhaul.  Have people got it wrong - yes, of course, but then we get things wrong at every type of job (some get it wrong at every job), but we dont stop doing everything else.

Typical corporate arse-covering response to not having a suitable SOP and training package in place. Caught on the hop.....and nowhere to go except to ban it. Never mind the number of Brigades that have used it effectively and have made things safer for their own firefighters (and potentially trapped members of the community - the WHOLE reason we enter buildings at the start remember), one or two get it wrong (albeit in a big way), but lets not spend some time helping them get better with the resources we already have in Groups and Brigades.....let's just say NO.....cos then we cant be at fault. Statements like "The CFS is currently researching the use and applications of PPV during structure fires with a view to developing effective training and standard operating procedures to ensure safe operational use" beggar belief.....just what have those that are responsible for this been doing for the last 10 years? If you really need a hand, my Brigade will gladly volunteer our training resources and presentations for Ventilation - somehow us people with other jobs managed to gather the information,develop the training packages and deliver it each year - who would have thought it possible?

Pretty soon we will be able to save a lot of money because we wont need BA training because we will be external defensive only fire-watchers..... wouldn't even need PBI, more savings.....I should phone the Treasurer.....he could use the $$ for the Budget. We really are our own worst enemies sometimes. Another case where people should be held to account for a serious deficiency in our Service....and a bullshit response.

/rant (for Pump)

[misterteddy]

i'm actually going to add a little here to highlight this is not a rant aimed at the particular person that has carriage of this area at STC. He has had a Tactical Ventilation course developed and been pushing for its introduction for many years - the rant is at our Managers that seemingly find the task of running an effective modern fire service too challenging.

[pumprescue]

But Ted, you can't use a PPV fan to fight a bushfire....

[6739264]

I was going to quote and specifically deal with parts of your post, but I think that perhaps it'll be easier if I just post a different view on things.

I for one am glad to finally see some positive action being taken to consolidate our fireground practices.

Over the past few years I have on many occasions seen PPV fans in use at CFS incidents. This has been over a number of groups, with a number of different brigades. The vast majority of the time, the fans have been used incorrectly, either leading to a significant increase in fire behaviour, or a severe contamination of the area they are trying to "ventilate". It is obvious that the CFS need to develop a Tac Vent package, and as you are obviously aware, this is/has been done, but is still facing a number of hurdles.

Now, from my experience with Positive Pressure Attack, it requires a very switched on, and highly trained crew to implement in a safe and efficient manner. If your brigade happens to have this, then more power to you. Frankly I'd love to see the material you teach and instruct. PM? Anyhow, I believe that broadly the CFS as a whole does not possess this, and as a risk minimisation strategy, have produced this ops bulletin.

It should perhaps be pointed out that there are also a number of career fire & rescue agencies in the country that have very similar thoughts on the topic. Now, with this and their training budget/instructors/materials/research/facilities in mind, if they struggle to train their crews to a level of competence that they believe is adequate to use PPA on the fireground, how on earth can CFS come close when we don't even teach basic ventilation anymore?

We, as a service, are struggling to reach every CABA operator and teach them the basics of structural fire behaviour. We also struggle to use PPV fans correctly for the simple task of post fire ventilation. PPA requires a high level of knowledge, understanding and recognition of structural fire behaviour and a higher level of knowledge of use of PPV fans, as well as reading the burning regime and vent profile of a building. If we cannot achieve basic competence in any of these areas, how can it be safe to allow the service to utilise a practice that requires a HIGH level of competence?

I understand that you may have a very well drilled and instructed brigade, but perhaps its best to think outside of your patch and look at the service? We need to hone our basic skills and understanding rather than try to implement ideas that are not officially endorsed or instructed and can be VERY dangerous.

I don't think some people realise just how close we have come to some major extreme fire behaviour events, and so far it has merely been luck that nothing has happened.

[pumprescue]

None of us are trained by the service to use fans, they should have done this years ago, if we push the wrong way we might lose them altogether. They haven't actually taught us anything beyond wearing an air set, hence the name "wearers course".

[misterteddy]

Numbers....now i have a fair idea where your coming from....you don't need my Brigade and Groups info, you had it years ago. We made our stuff available more than 3 years ago. We've updated, rehashed and improved it....but its basically the same.

The service doesnt teach us to use lots of equipment that we have....we just get on and do it. Theres a bunch of easy to follow, good information out there - try the manufacturer of most of the most common brand, they actually have an excellent package.

PPV is not that complex; yes it comes with some inherent risks......and we all know CFS as a service and sadly many CFS personnel have a glass-arse when it comes to risk, but it really isnt that difficult. There are always going to be times when we go "oops, that didnt work".....but thats how we learn. We must embrace this, not be afraid of it. All we need to do is to mitigate the risk....not AVOID it. Personally I'm sick of being in a powder puff fire service that teaches people that no risk is acceptable - but this I stress is my personal belief. Once we used to have a Fire Service Star....one of the points had Bravery written on it...not stupidity....but (intelligent)bravery. Its appropriate that the CFS doesnt use the star anymore.

PPA requires a high level of knowledge, understanding and recognition of structural fire behaviour and a higher level of knowledge of use of PPV fans, as well as reading the burning regime and vent profile of a building. If we cannot achieve basic competence in any of these areas, how can it be safe to allow the service to utilise a practice that requires a HIGH level of competence?

We have a good Compartment firefighting course that gives more than sufficent knowledge on structural fire behaviour to employ forced ventilation - IF you understand the aims and methods of achieving it. Ventilation is a course tailor made for computer based learning, along with some practical exercises. Most Brigades/Groups struggle to practice it because of the lack of a suitable structure to smoke up and learn sequential/progressive venting properly, my Brigade/Group is lucky in that regard.  The proposed (but unfunded for some stupid reason)Tac Vent course could easily be adapted to a Computer based format that is extremely valid and of very high quality. But part of the deal is we need a residence/factory type building to practice - yes it costs $$  but it's a basic firefighting skill, so it should have a higher priority to set up than supporting other non core fire service activities like Cadets. I'd be happy to sacrifice a new appliance on the build program to get this underway - we're supposed to be fire fighters, not fire watchers. We can cope with a 20yr old truck for another year to get this right.

Yes pump, if we get it wrong, it can go bad. If we drive badly, it can go bad, if we stabilise a car incorrectly it can go bad....if we use the wrong dunny paper, it can go bad. But seriously....let's not push it cos the mean old bad CFS might take our toys away??....you have to be joking right???....I think the testicles are in aisle 3

[tft]

PPV is not that difficult, the word is to be switched on at a job.
If used correctly it an excellent tool to use.
It has been around since the mid 80s
http://www.firetactics.com/PPV.htm
Get on-line do some research, practice, practice. We have enough brigades that have and do use PPV with good outcomes.
How hard is a phone call or email

[pumprescue]

Are you guys even in the CFS, we are full of effing numpties....its a wonder some crews manage to get water on the fire, and you are worried about using PPV's on initial attack. How about getting the basic stuff right first, the service is the biggest joke, probably the worst run it has ever been....if you exclude the only thing we seem to be known for, fighting a bushfire. My God people, wake up, we can't even get training on how to do anything past put an airset on, its so typical of brigades, they want to go straight to the fancy dancy stuff when we can't even get the basics right!!!!  Not to mention after 3 or 4 defaults because of the lack of crew that no one seems to realise is a problem and the fact that some brigades are traveling massive distances to cover for those defaults, the house is beyond the point of even needing to get the fan off! God this service is so freaking frustrating!

I think your testicles are dangling down around your nose from the appendage on your forehead !!

[pumprescue]

So anyway


Get some crew that want to join and stay for more than 5 mins....

Get trucks out the door

Get them trained to fight fires

Get them good basic gear

Make sure they are actually training to maintain competency

Then maybe think about adding other items.

[misterteddy]

you forgot the /rant Pump

.....just saying 

[pumprescue]

I have learnt from the master.....