Structure Fire Entanglement Hazard

[flyonthewall]

I think it is a fair question to ask a question and get a proper answer. Rather than take a dig at eh CFS for not having much of a RIT plan how about suggesting what brigades can do with what is currently available to them.

Unfortunately for multiple reasons we haven’t considered RIT a high priority to allocate resources to implement. Rightly or wrongly this is the fact and what Ideas can you offer other Fire-fighters to improve the status qou

Not having much of a RIT plan? If you have crews committed to a larger fire such as numbers hypothetical incident, Why is it so hard to have a crew as a designated RIT team? I have already described what they do. There is nothing magical about a RIT team. All the equipment needed is on the fire ground. This should all be part of the IC's IAP.

When is the RIT set up?  Is this only for commercial fires, or all fires where crews are inside a structure?  If you have a relatively small domestic fire where you only have 2 operators committed, would the standby crew outside have tools ready in case something goes wrong? (or would you have a 4 member RIT at the ready?

At a domestic fire, the backup BA crew could be used as a RIT team (only on a smaller scale) I'm sure that if something happened at a domestic fire, it would be on a much smaller scale than at a commercial premises. This is all at the discretion of the IC of course and once again, it should be part of the IAP.

I wouldn't be in there in the first place..........





ahhh well...I hear the Salvos are always looking for volunteers for the lunch wagon, so you can still feel involved

I don't know how much of or if you get any structure fire training but along time before the ceiling collapsed and the A/C ducts fell down, it would be pretty obvious that it would be unsafe.

If you happened to be in there when it happened then someone was a bit too keen to be a hero.

A safety officer is designated at K99 incidents ASAP (A K99 is an automatic upgrade or higher if requested - so there will be enough resources to have a crew for a RIT Team if required - once again, at the discretion of the IC

What is so hard...........

The bigger the job, the greater the safety risk. If you guys can't get trucks or crews to turn up at incidents, then there is the start of your problems.........

[flyonthewall]

Quote from: flyonthewall on Today at 02:32:20 PM
I wouldn't be in there in the first place..........





ahhh well...I hear the Salvos are always looking for volunteers for the lunch wagon, so you can still feel involved

I did forget to mention, I have helped the Salvos before and they were a nice bunch of people. Who knows, I might have even served you.

[6739264]

I think it is a fair question to ask a question and get a proper answer. Rather than take a dig at eh CFS for not having much of a RIT plan how about suggesting what brigades can do with what is currently available to them.

Unfortunately for multiple reasons we haven’t considered RIT a high priority to allocate resources to implement. Rightly or wrongly this is the fact and what Ideas can you offer other Fire-fighters to improve the status qou

Not having much of a RIT plan? If you have crews committed to a larger fire such as numbers hypothetical incident, Why is it so hard to have a crew as a designated RIT team? I have already described what they do. There is nothing magical about a RIT team. All the equipment needed is on the fire ground. This should all be part of the IC's IAP.

As has been said, and flyonthewall is basically spot on, RIT isn't hard. All of your tools are on the trucks, it's merely a matter of assigning a crew, or more if required, to RIT duties, and then as part of the RIT start to formulate plans based on your size up.

When is the RIT set up?  Is this only for commercial fires, or all fires where crews are inside a structure?  If you have a relatively small domestic fire where you only have 2 operators committed, would the standby crew outside have tools ready in case something goes wrong? (or would you have a 4 member RIT at the ready?

At a domestic fire, the backup BA crew could be used as a RIT team (only on a smaller scale) I'm sure that if something happened at a domestic fire, it would be on a much smaller scale than at a commercial premises. This is all at the discretion of the IC of course and once again, it should be part of the IAP.

I tend to stick to the rule of thumb that at 2nd Alarm and greater you should be thinking about turning out a pump specifically for RIT duties. Again, its no hard and fast rule (unless its in you ARP Schedule) but the IC needs to be thinking about it.

I wouldn't be in there in the first place..........

ahhh well...I hear the Salvos are always looking for volunteers for the lunch wagon, so you can still feel involved

I don't know how much of or if you get any structure fire training but along time before the ceiling collapsed and the A/C ducts fell down, it would be pretty obvious that it would be unsafe.

If you happened to be in there when it happened then someone was a bit too keen to be a hero.

A safety officer is designated at K99 incidents ASAP (A K99 is an automatic upgrade or higher if requested - so there will be enough resources to have a crew for a RIT Team if required - once again, at the discretion of the IC

What is so hard...........

The bigger the job, the greater the safety risk. If you guys can't get trucks or crews to turn up at incidents, then there is the start of your problems.........

Frankly, I don't tend to agree. The ceiling and other assorted furnishing can start to fall down WELL before a building is unsafe and is threatening to collapse. If you honestly think that furnishings, ceiling tiles, suspended ceilings and other bits and pieces of the interior of a building falling down are hard and fast signs that you're "too keen to be a hero" and shouldn't be in there, then I guess you're going to be a great builder of carparks.

But then again, what is the building that you're in made of? Is it brick and tile or of lightweight construction? Did the ceiling fall in because the steel frame its hung off has expanded? Does the CFS get taught building construction? Of course not.

Lightweight building materials, adhesives, attachment devices and fixture mountings can all be effected by heat in a negative fashion and they then tend to fail. Odd that.

It comes down to reading the structure that you're operating in and understanding how the fire effects the building's construction. There are a handful signs of structural collapse, but they need to be weighed up against the building you're actually in.

[pumprescue]

The entanglement I experienced was in a house where the roof stayed intact, just the covering over the ductwork melted and like a slinky the wires fell through the vents.

[6739264]

The entanglement I experienced was in a house where the roof stayed intact, just the covering over the ductwork melted and like a slinky the wires fell through the vents.

Exactly. I'd happily assume that the building was structurally intact, even though you experienced some debris falling onto you. Certainly not a case of "...along time before the ceiling collapsed and the A/C ducts fell down, it would be pretty obvious that it would be unsafe. [sic]"

[unfknblvable]

Is it not the responsibility of the Incident Controller to decide upon incident strategy?
Is it not the role of Safety Officers to take corrective actions where "personnel are taking unacceptable risks"?
Oh but of course all you highly experienced and far more knowledgeable types on this forum are much wiser.
ROFL

[CFS_Firey]

Is it not the responsibility of the Incident Controller to decide upon incident strategy?
Is it not the role of Safety Officers to take corrective actions where "personnel are taking unacceptable risks"?
Oh but of course all you highly experienced and far more knowledgeable types on this forum are much wiser.
ROFL

Some members of this forum are trying to have a serious discussion about urban fire fighting because they know the CFS training provided is inadequate.
If you're an experienced urban fire fighter, how about you contribute to the discussion positively, so that members on here can learn from your experience?  How about explaining what you would do as an incident controller, or describing what actions you would take after being entangled rather than saying "it's not hard, follow SOP"?

Snide, passive-aggressive remarks are not helpful, and will be removed from now on.

If you have something helpful to say, please contribute.  If you don't, feel free to read but don't post.

[bajdas]

People state that enough tools exist on a fire truck to equip a RIT team. I am not part of a fire service so would be interested in what specific tools you would lay out on a tarp for quick access ?

[Darcyq]

...so would be interested in what specific tools you would lay out on a tarp for quick access ?

I would be thinking of the "Holligan Tool, Axe, and Sledge Hammer, for a start if it was just a case of making an forced entry or egress. Like what has alresdy been posted, a good set of wire cutters would be handy for removal of wires etc. I suppose it all depends on what "what if's" you could potentially be faced with. Worse case you could require Hydraulic tools, air lifting bags, shoring blocks. Then if there is a height access issue (fall through floor) ladders may well also be needed.

All this RIT work takes time, what is the recommended (read SOP) response for maintaining an air supply to a trapped fire fighter whose cylinder has become depleted?

[6739264]

People state that enough tools exist on a fire truck to equip a RIT team. I am not part of a fire service so would be interested in what specific tools you would lay out on a tarp for quick access ?

Halligans, Axe, Sledge Hammer, Spare CABA, Ceiling Hooks, Hydraulic Door Opener, QuickCut Saw as a start. This will all fit into a Stokes Litter as a start. The RIT should have at least one Thermal Imaging Camera and both small access and large extension ladders.

Believe it or not, this is all available to the CFS, as we speak. In some areas this possible with either regional of SAMFS assistance.

...so would be interested in what specific tools you would lay out on a tarp for quick access ?

I would be thinking of the "Holligan Tool, Axe, and Sledge Hammer, for a start if it was just a case of making an forced entry or egress. Like what has alresdy been posted, a good set of wire cutters would be handy for removal of wires etc. I suppose it all depends on what "what if's" you could potentially be faced with. Worse case you could require Hydraulic tools, air lifting bags, shoring blocks. Then if there is a height access issue (fall through floor) ladders may well also be needed.

All this RIT work takes time, what is the recommended (read SOP) response for maintaining an air supply to a trapped fire fighter whose cylinder has become depleted?

Pretty much spot on, although your heavy hydraulic tools/airbags etc, are generally only going to be able to be used one the area around the trapped firefighter is made same from fire. If you need that gear, then you're looking at a very protracted rescue, if not body recovery.

Maintaining an air supply to a downed CFS firefighter is very difficult given that the Sabre Centurion airsets currently issued do not have the ability to buddy breath in a standard configuration. Best method I can think of is to haul a spare airset in and swap demand valves over at the facemask. This should leave the facemask/helmet/hood intact.

[flyonthewall]

All the info about RIT teams and Safety Officers is in SAMFS SOP 12 - Command and Control Procedure at Incidents.
More information is in SAMFS SOP 14 Breathing Apparatus and Respiratory Protection Procedures.

Maintaining an air supply to a downed CFS firefighter is very difficult given that the Sabre Centurion airsets currently issued do not have the ability to buddy breath in a standard configuration. Best method I can think of is to haul a spare airset in and swap demand valves over at the facemask. This should leave the facemask/helmet/hood intact.

I am glad this has been brought up ........

In my original post where I was talking about Tablets and Entry control boards,
I mentioned the incompatability. The Alpha Network sytem that the MFS run with their airsets has the capability of being remotely monitored. I don't know what you guys know about this system but ......... If an MFS firefighter was trapped, they can set of their set so that the ECO monitoring the tablet will know they are in trouble. The ECO can also monitor their air supply and relay this information back to a RIT team or IC. If the firefighter is motionless, it will also set of an alarm. All of this is info is given in live time data.
An auxillary facemask can also be run off the MFS BA.

If it was a CFS firefighter, everthing would have to be a guesstimation. Of course a rescue would be as quick as possible but there is no way of monitoring what is actually going on, sure you can use the radios but if someone is incapacitated, how do you know? .......... So it was not a dig at the CFS.

Quote from: bajdas on Today at 11:59:59 AM
...so would be interested in what specific tools you would lay out on a tarp for quick access ?


I would be thinking of the "Holligan Tool, Axe, and Sledge Hammer, for a start if it was just a case of making an forced entry or egress. Like what has alresdy been posted, a good set of wire cutters would be handy for removal of wires etc. I suppose it all depends on what "what if's" you could potentially be faced with. Worse case you could require Hydraulic tools, air lifting bags, shoring blocks. Then if there is a height access issue (fall through floor) ladders may well also be needed.

All this RIT work takes time, what is the recommended (read SOP) response for maintaining an air supply to a trapped fire fighter whose cylinder has become depleted?

At a domestic fire, there would be enough equipment and manpower around. At a large commercial/factory incident, the IC could call on the Heavy Rescue pod to be dropped of, specifically for a RIT team. There would also be enough small gear around to use, eg a thermal camera.

Once again..........

The IC is responsible for co-ordinating an incident. Safety Officers and RIT Teams, and all other resources are at the discretion of the IC . This will all be part of their risk assesment and IAP.

This info is all in the SOP'S mentioned.

Frankly, I don't tend to agree. The ceiling and other assorted furnishing can start to fall down WELL before a building is unsafe and is threatening to collapse. If you honestly think that furnishings, ceiling tiles, suspended ceilings and other bits and pieces of the interior of a building falling down are hard and fast signs that you're "too keen to be a hero" and shouldn't be in there, then I guess you're going to be a great builder of carparks.

But then again, what is the building that you're in made of? Is it brick and tile or of lightweight construction? Did the ceiling fall in because the steel frame its hung off has expanded? Does the CFS get taught building construction? Of course not.

.......... I respect your opinion numbers, however if there was nobodys life at threat, I wouldn't be risking mine. If things are falling, would you be able to tell what it was in a smoke filled environment? Some people probably think it is like the movies where everyone can see eachother and see what is going on around them. If the A/C slingy has fallen through the roof (through it's duct?)-I would be asking myself, What's going on above my head that I can't see? What else is up there that might come down?

You can't save what is already burnt. I've never seen a ceiling come down without any prior compromise or unless I have pulled it down. All ceilings that I have seen come down in fires have had whatever has been above following close behind including roof trusses, beams, hotwater systems, A/C ducting, tiles and insulation. I have been entangled in electrical wires, although not during the fire. Has anyone tried using a small hand tool with structure gloves on? A leatherman would be useless.

(By the way, You never mentioned in your hypothetical if there were persons reported?)

[CFS_Firey]

All the info about RIT teams and Safety Officers is in SAMFS SOP 12 - Command and Control Procedure at Incidents.
More information is in SAMFS SOP 14 Breathing Apparatus and Respiratory Protection Procedures.

Is there some way us mere volunteers can get hold of these SOPs?  It might help us put systems in place at incidents given that our SOPs don't cover it...

An auxillary facemask can also be run off the MFS BA.

Just to clarify, the Centurions do allow for auxiliary masks to be run, it's just that the CFS does't stow the fittings required.  Likewise you can also attach an external air supply to the sets, but we don't stow the fittings/hoses for that either.

You can't save what is already burnt. I've never seen a ceiling come down without any prior compromise or unless I have pulled it down. All ceilings that I have seen come down in fires have had whatever has been above following close behind including roof trusses, beams, hotwater systems, A/C ducting, tiles and insulation. I have been entangled in electrical wires, although not during the fire. Has anyone tried using a small hand tool with structure gloves on? A leatherman would be useless.

You're right that you shouldn't risk your life for nothing, but remember in this hypothetical case the ceiling came down once crews were already inside, not before they went in. It's possibly for a small smouldering fire in the ceiling space to build up enough heat to melt aircon duct, but still not show up as a large fire from the outside.

Would you personally refuse to go in to a smoke logged room (with no persons reported) because the structure would be weakened?

[pumprescue]

Interesting that you wouldn't go into any structure that had no life threat, you may as well just ask on the 000 call is there anyone home, if not then say call the demolition company...

Firefighting is dangerous, there is stupid and there is calculated risk.

[flyonthewall]

CFS_Firey,

Is there some way us mere volunteers can get hold of these SOPs?  It might help us put systems in place at incidents given that our SOPs don't cover it...

... Sorry, I can't help.

[Just to clarify, the Centurions do allow for auxiliary masks to be run, it's just that the CFS does't stow the fittings required.  Likewise you can also attach an external air supply to the sets, but we don't stow the fittings/hoses for that either.

... That dosen't help if you need to supply someone with air then.


I have been into plenty of smoke logged rooms with a knowledge that no one is in them, have you heard of scene preservation. If someone is reported then of course, I would do what I have been trained to do.

I find it ironic that there is alot of complaining about lack of training and yet, I keep getting questioned about my personal risk management by people who supposedly don't have the training?

pumprescue,

Interesting that you wouldn't go into any structure that had no life threat, you may as well just ask on the 000 call is there anyone home, if not then say call the demolition company...

Firefighting is dangerous, there is stupid and there is calculated risk.

.......... calculated risk - exactly, and I didn't say I wouldn't go in. I have been saying that I would be erring on the side of safety.

I say again,

I find it ironic that there is alot of complaining about lack of training and yet, I keep getting questioned about my personal risk management by people who supposedly don't have the training or the SOP's that,

don't cover it...

[jaff]

When I grow up, I want to be just like Flyonthewall and maybe even have a cape as well....non flamable of course!

[CFS_Firey]

Just to clarify, the Centurions do allow for auxiliary masks to be run, it's just that the CFS does't stow the fittings required.  Likewise you can also attach an external air supply to the sets, but we don't stow the fittings/hoses for that either.

... That dosen't help if you need to supply someone with air then.

No, it doesn't   (but it's a failure of the system, not the sets)

I find it ironic that there is alot of complaining about lack of training and yet, I keep getting questioned about my personal risk management by people who supposedly don't have the training or the SOP's that,

cover it...

Maybe because they see you as someone who has been trained, and want to learn from you, so they ask you questions?

[flyonthewall]

Posted by: jaff 

When I grow up, I want to be just like Flyonthewall and maybe even have a cape as well....non flamable of course! 

I'ts this kind of mentality that lets some people down.

I've tried to give some detail into the thinking of an urban firefighter (this is only my opinion of course)along with some of the things that might happen at an incident.
It is quite obvious that there are some things that you guys didn't know or were unfamiliar with because of the difference in training and core buisness.

........ stay safe at the next structure fire you attend.

[misterteddy]

It is quite obvious that there are some things that you guys didn't know or were unfamiliar with because of the difference in training and core buisness.

lmao at the "core" business comment. So, do you thing grassfires are our core business??? You really have no idea sometimes do you??

[flyonthewall]

Posted by: misterteddy  

Quote from: flyonthewall on Yesterday at 01:47:54 PM
It is quite obvious that there are some things that you guys didn't know or were unfamiliar with because of the difference in training and core buisness.



lmao at the "core" business comment. So, do you thing grassfires are our core business??? You really have no idea sometimes do you??



 

My apology, core business - was a poor choice of words. Substitute core business with - how often you attend these incidents ie. on the job experience). I also am aware that some guys have structure fire experience and have worked alongside them with no issues of capability.......

Anyway, I didn't mention grassfires and in actual fact, the MFS responds to more anyway. Check the stats 09/10......

CFS total 09/10 - 1996
MFS total 09/10 - 2151

You really have no idea sometimes do you??

?......

I have no intention of turning this into a stats. thread so back to numbers hypothetical..........