Keep pushing the boundaries

[fire03rescue]

Well done to the CFS brigade members for using fire hoods,
Yes some people are what if
It has not been approved
We need people to ask these questions, but more importantly we need volunteers to push the boundaries (not in a dangerous way)
Just a few things that Volunteers have done and introduced

Fire appliance made by firefighters
   90m hose reels
   Monitors
   Paging of fire calls
   PPV
   Blue lights on fire appliances
   Hooligan tool
   Turn out pants and coat

The list just keeps going
Keep up the good work

[corocfs]

hmmm 100m hose reels!!! 
[edited to add the below comment]

however...  i wouldnt necessarily say good work to ppl who are disobeying or not listening to what the CFS says in relation to flashhoods...

dont forget, you are only covered by the CFS insurance if you are wearing your supplied PPE fully and properly, this doesnt include all the little things we add to them.

just something to think about... it is up to you wether you follow CFS guidelines or choose to do your own thing.

[firefighter_sa]

Hi there

I think we all flex the rules a little.

With the nature of our area (Hills) we have installed additional hose reels (2) between the cab & rear body pod on the 3-4 appliance.

We use allot of lay flay hoses, and they are used for storage (rolled up). 

Also additional box mounted on the top of the rear pod to store the chain saw - the other lockers are to small.

Just the nature of human - make our tasks easier not harder

Wayne

[CFS_Firey]

dint forget, you are only covered by the CFS insurance if you are wearing your supplied PPE fully and properly, this doesn't include all the little things we add to them.

Really?  Wouldn't the CFS insurance only not cover us if we aren't wearing the correct PPE?  I would have thought that you only wouldn't be covered if you sustained injury from the flash hood (If you were strangled to death on a flashood you wouldn't be covered, but if you were burnt while wearing a flash hood you would be..)
I'm no expert on insurance, just asking...

[Wagon 1]

They would be hard pressed to knock you back if the hood met australian standards for structural fire fighting, but you know what insurance companies are like. But if they have been approved, yippee, now mine can come out my pocket more often.

[corocfs]

dint forget, you are only covered by the CFS insurance if you are wearing your supplied PPE fully and properly, this doesn't include all the little things we add to them.

Really?  Wouldn't the CFS insurance only not cover us if we aren't wearing the correct PPE?  I would have thought that you only wouldn't be covered if you sustained injury from the flash hood (If you were strangled to death on a flashood you wouldn't be covered, but if you were burnt while wearing a flash hood you would be..)
I'm no expert on insurance, just asking...

if you check the CFS insurance docs.. im pretty sure it says we must be wearing our SUPPLIED PPE fully and appropriately... flash hoods may mean we are safer in reality.. but it may also mean we are breaching the "rules" for our insurance..

[strikeathird]

They would be hard pressed to knock you back if the hood met australian standards for structural fire fighting, but you know what insurance companies are like. But if they have been approved, yippee, now mine can come out my pocket more often.

They have not been approved for our use yet.  To my knowledge they can still ONLY be worn at STC.

[Cameron2919]

Hi All,

I couldn't agree more with you with regard to what the volunteers have achieved.... Never tell a volunteer it can't be done, or worse still that it shouldn't be done!!!

But we can't afford to rest on our laurels ever. Now if we can get the welfare side of things better in line to REALLY look after and protect volunteers, especially those injured in line of duty, we'll be doing brillantly!

This is quite a long message and appreciate that you may not wish to read it all. On that note though I am hoping that you might take the time to read it all and that you may have some ideas and input at the end of it!

I am currently recovering (some 8.5 months on) from an injury sustained while on CFS duties. To quote Mike Rann a couple of years ago: "No volunteer will be worse off".....Got news for you all if you are injured though!

Medically, support and morale wise the CFS (now SAFECOM) OHS&W Rehab section have got it right. Financially though, the system is pretty ordinary. If your are injured as a CFS member on CFS duties, you are covered under the Workcover Act....There's NO superannuation payments, your fulltime employer can put you off on leave without pay (as mine has), no super payments means no disability and / or death insurance with some funds, discounts on payroll deductions such as health insurance won't apply and the list of financial losses goes on and on! There is also NO avenue to recover financial losses. 

What about the Foundation? Well, thats still bogged down in politcal BS and doesn't look like its going anywhere fast!!! So maybe the VFBA needs a big push from the vols to get some REAL welfare and better protection happening and in place for volunteers?

I know the MFS guys have a fund that they contribute something like $2 a pay, to help each other out in times of financial hardship, ie. not having any sick leave left to take, extended time off work, etc.... I'm NOT suggesting that we need to start chipping in to a fund, but I think we can get a better deal with the huge knowledge and ideas base that is the CFS Volunteers!

The folks up in SAFECOM (OHS&W and Rehab) are a fantastic team of dedicated people and I can't sing their praises highly enough....but even some of them admit the system is sadly lacking in this area. The TOP UP Insurance through the VFBA is a nice idea, but from everything I've heard about it from many sources, its not really worth much at all!

Nothing can be done to rectify my situation or others before me, but I am going to push as many avenues as possible to ensure that this doesn't happen to any other CFS member (and if the numbers help, maybe other services could be asked to join the push?) I estimate that I've probably lost the equivalent of over $10,000 in wages, super, discounts, etc... not to mention teh injury itself, temporary loss of lifestyle, unable to work, get on an appliance, long term problems from the injury, etc... I would hate to see a fellow volunteer, especially a mum or a dad having to go through a similar situation and not being looked after financially.

There are quite a few other people (some who are not even CFS members but just want to help) working on ideas on how to improve the system (and to find ways to ensure it is then maintained and not abused).

To rub salt in the wound... The fire that I was at when I was injured back on 1st Jan this year was believed to have been started by a 15 or 16yo who allegedly threw a sparkler into dry grass. The alledged offender apparently walked into a police station a few hours later and said that they think they started the fire.....and GOT OFF WITH A WARNING!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

[Cameron2919]

Hey guys,

Which "CFS Insurance" are you refering to? If you mean what will happen if you are injured and you are not wearing the CORRECT PPE and wearing CORRECTLY (ie. Flashoods)! Well we're all covered under the Workcover Act SA 1987.... If you're not wearing your PPE or not wearing it correctly (or I guess you are wearing something you MAY not supposed to be wearing like a flashood) what can happen to you? Not a great deal actually!

HERE"S WHY....You MAY get a reduction in either weekly nominal earnings whilst you are off work and injured or any potential section 43 (non economic loss payment) or potential payouts MAY be reduced, but you will still be covered medically (no matter what).

The chances of someone (a volunteer in particular) actually having wages reduced, payments or payouts reduced, especially if you could show the benefits of such an item like a flashood (worn appropraitely and at the appropriate time) would be so slim, it almsot doesn't bear mentioning. Why? Because if the government (CFS) goes around punishing volunteers (who were acting in good faith)....THERE WOULDN"T BE ANY VOLUNTEERS AND THEY KNOW THIS!!! Word travels fast, especially in a service such as ours.

I don't mean this as a carte blanc that we should all do out own thing and we can get away with anything, but common sense is still a part of common law. The best advice I would offer (as this is what I would do) is to do as the SOP's, Regs, ACT, technical reports direct us to do and push hard to change the system when it is wrong, defective or simply doesn't work.... question everything, but reason it out too! Hope this helps?

Cameron2919

[Wagon 1]

Thanks, nice to see some facts and figures not just hearsay. Yes, I am as guilty as the rest.

[Mike]

Welcome to the forum Cameron..
What a fantastic post.... very informative, and very down to earth to.

Hope its not to much longer before your back out there with us.

[kat]

I have been a Claims Administrator and had a reasonable amount of training and experience with the WorkCover system.

CFS is a "self insurer" but this doesn't mean much as far as WorkCover benefits go except that they handle and pay for their own claims as opposed to using an inurance company.

As CFS volunteers are considered "employees" for WorkCover purposes they will be covered regardless of wrong or inadequate PPE. As my former company's insurer told me once when an employee injured themselves after displaying gross negligence "we cover all types of incidents, from b****d employers to idiot employees". Should CFS as the insurer choose not to approve a claim for whatever reason there are avenues for appeal and WorkCover is independant of the employer.

I once attended a training session run by a WorkCover lawyer with some 25 years experience in the field. We went through several cases that had been through the tribunal and they seemed to have completely unguessable and inconsistent outcomes. The one thing that was emphasised is that there are huge variations in how the law can be interpreted.

And, from my experience, if you were strangled by your flash hood whilst on CFS duties, you probably would be covered

[JamesGar]

Pushing the boundries!

I think it's time some of us push for some extras...Talking to a SO at St Mary's MFS the other day he state that the best advancement in regards to there appliances in the last 10 years has been the BA seats. Looking at the profile of these seats I think that my fit into the 34P cab. I'd envisage having 2 seats/sets in the cab for your primary BA crew to be donned and prepared on arrival at an incident and having an additional 2 sets in a locker for your second crew (this way officer and driver could don a set without the need to climb into the cab id they're required to wear!)

Other thoughts for areas of improvement apart from the standard appliance discussion...

Maybe it's time to look at technology properly.

Thermal imaging

CAFS, with a proper documented double blind trial (could incoporate university students as it could make a great doctorate for an engineering or science student)

Other specialist training like Ship Fires (I'm sure Cape Jervis/Yankalilla/Port Lincoln/Ceduna/Robe would benefit) Silo Fires.

Carbon Fibre 300 Bar BA Cylinders (OHSW issue as they're muck lighter)

Recipro Saws for building access, Vehicle Fires and ventilation

If you've got any ideas please add...

[TillerMan]

There's much better technology in PTO pumps now as far as pump and roll is concerned. I believe one of the new 34p's has a PTO pump with the capacity to pump and roll.

I was told once BA seats are only about $1000.00 a pop so would be worth investigating if your brigade has a bit of spare money, I was also told BA seats won't fit into an isuzu cab because it pushes the seat forward too much and are too high but could be wrong.

[Wagon 1]

Also, don't know if any of you have been in the latest Isuzu 4x4's but they are a looooooooooooong way up, so CFS OH&S might have an issue with you getting in and out of that truck with BA on. She ain't the Volvo James!

[24P]

Also, don't know if any of you have been in the latest Isuzu 4x4's but they are a looooooooooooong way up, so CFS OH&S might have an issue with you getting in and out of that truck with BA on. She ain't the Volvo James!

Thats what the carbon fibre cylinders are for. 

[Wagon 1]

You crack me up 24P

[JamesGar]

I hear you're argument about BA seats, maybe not on 34P's but other appliances like Pumpers. Other point with that though is we climb up ladders with BA on, climb though windows, crawl around on the floor. If we were to mitigate all risks in wearing BA then we wouldn't wear them at all. If you were to have trouble climbing down from an appliance wearing a set I'd ask whether you should be wearing a set at all

With the appropriate training I think BA seat in a 34P should work!

[Wagon 1]

Yes but people don't look at it like that, we just get told to stop trying to be MFS "wannabes" !!

[oz fire]

MFS wannabees - not sure that installing a CABA seat into a 34p makes the service MFS wannabees - rather it looks at what is useful on the ground and the equipment that is there to do that!

As for climbing out of a 34P great points James - and I'm glad it's you guys getting off the back of the Volvo - last I saw it was a long way down to the ground from the crew cab, with only one step  thats one large step for man kind!!

Having a blue uniform and driving a red truck because we perceive that that is what the public expects, makes us MFS wannabees - especially when you look at the efforts brigades and people like Brenton Ragless go to to promote us with a standard image - white trucks, yellow PPE etc.

Although I agree - our training is the same (well should be, the services have adopted the same course - which CFS wrote allot of) so maybe it's time that we looked seriously at Equipment - maybe the CFS Manager Training who spear headed the common training should be given the task to align equipment