private fire appliances

[rescue5271]

What do people think of private fire appliances that have been bought by farming communitys to provide help to CFS in summer? I am all for it providing that all those on the appliances are dressed to level one gear and know what they are doing. I would like to see the CFS introduce a guide book for private units giving them the correct information on who/what and where to report to. The CFA (Vic) have just done this guide book and its not too bad something that we (cfs) could also do.

Remember all the water you can get helps put out that fire.

[Firefrog]

This is tough one for me. In the urban fringe many brigades have hardly seen a private unit but further out there are many.
The issues that I can see.
Comms
Clothing
Training
Knowing and then carrying out the incident management plan
Accountablity

Of course it is the locals right to assist and CFS can never protect every property so private units are good in that regard. I just don't know how best to manage them on the fireground.
If the actions of private units didn't have any potential to impact on CFS safety then we could just let them do their thing. But I think some management is needed.
I have a lot of questions few answers. Does anyone have case studies on it working well?

[Macca]

Hi guys as a new bloke to SA I can see a lot of fall backs of a private appliance attending a fire such as insurance, training, and a crew manning that truck, when the original crew is stood down  it is a great idea to do it but in the long run what happens if someone is injured

[kat]

All good issues raised - but how do we stop them? We would have no hope of enforcing any ban even if we were to face the ire of the community by imposing one. And as Blinky pointed out - the extra water is great ('specially if someone slings them a litre or two of A Class foam). And the farmers units have been great front line attack and certainly reduced the scale of a few recent jobs I've been to started by farm machinery. But there is no doubt that there can be some negatives
So perhaps the happy medium is to try to work in together and provide them some information and education. The handbook sounds like its worth a try. Our Council fire prevention leaflet tells local farmers to wear appropriate clothing and report to the fire service (on UHF - we had to buy one   ) Anyone out there got an integrated approach working?

[corocfs]

i think the events of black tuesday definitely highlighted some problems with private units...
people fighting fires NEED training, protective clothing, the right equipment and the ability to communicate with the cfs to make sure they r used/being affective..

however there is also no doubt at all that in some areas they are vital for knocking a fire down quickly

[strikeathird]

Private Units (often farmers, and there utes with water tank and pump)  are often the only thing in remote locations which prevent/ totally stop some grass / scrub / crop fires. etc.  I heard that during the Mallala fires a while ago, there was at least 5 private farm units to each CFS appliance....

[rescue5271]

I am of to a group meeting this week and the matter of private units will come up,I am all for these unit's providing they met a standard of sorts that cover the following. All members where basic level one gear,they train to level one,they have UHF radios so that they can contact the command car but above all work as part of a team rather than on their own.

There is no way that we can ban them from the fire ground and so I understand that the FS is in the process of doing a hand book just for private units like the CFA one. The other point that I wanted to make is that private units should not have red and blue flashing lights and siren as this is the wrong image that the public dont need to see as they will think thta private units are the CFS as has been the case here in region 5

[Good times]

Yes Bill a very bad idea for them to be running red and blues and siren, people see white they assume CFS, maybe an amber set of lights to at least have some sort of warning, but thats it.

[firefighter_sa]

Hi there all

There is good and bad issues with private units.  There is already a CFS standard a private unit has to meet before assisting.  

In our area with the national parks the private units are paramount with the majority of incidents.  For Example - a fire in the Hills South of Melrose early in the year private units out numbered the CFS fleet by 2:1 - some time cordinating them possed other problems.

Obviousley it would be difficult to check private units for standards whilst on the fireground - so we do it this way.

Prior to the start of the fire danger season we have a information night followed with a BBQ - the soul purpose is to notify the standards (its all common sense stuff) they are to required to meet with there vehicles whilst on the fireground.  The discussion durring the evening also keeps them up to date with changes and we strongly strongly enforce they notify base before leaving so we can keep a record who is on the fire ground.

Thanks

Wayne

[Good times]

How many brigade members in these rural area's take the private unit first and does this impact the brigade response, would it be of more benefit to have perhaps a tanker in the area looked after by CFS than a 24 or 34, if the appliance is not really of use. Or would some slip ons paid for by CFS be of more use?

[rescue5271]

A tanker what is that good times There are no CFS tankers in region five we have to ask the council for a loan of their tanker so as you can see there is a need to use private fire appliances as long as people are trained and have correct PPC for fire ground.

[strikeathird]

I think Good Times meant that if its better for private units to respond, then they should be given the equipment, and some one rock up in a Tanker to provide water.

We wil never know, as they are no longer on list.

[oz fire]

I would like to see CFS survive and combat allot of the fires across SA without private units!!!!!!!!!!

Our chances are not very good.

Through the Adelaide Hills, no major dramas, theres a fire station every 5 - 10km. Get out a bit and theres a station every 30+ km and this is where private units are worth their weight in gold.

It is important to note though, that for them to be covered by CFS insurance, they must be operating with the incident controllers authority - hence they need to log on via radio (usually UHF) and as previous stated most do abide by a code of practice that has been around for a long time and as per Wayne's example, many areas of the state have info days/nights, to brief the farmers/community what they MUST do and what they can expect.

As for running around with red or blue lights or a siren - this contravenes the road traffic act and if they are impersonating a fire service they contravene at CF Act - so I would think, as has occurred previously in various areas of SA that would be quickly stamped out!!!

[TillerMan]

I do think that private units should have some sort of warning/safety lights. most end up on or near roads at some point and should have an amber flashing light of some sort. Almost everyone doing anything needs to have an amber flashing light these days. That way you can ensure the bombers know where they are and they can be seen at night time.

[rescue5271]

The private units that on the VIC side of our border all have a amber light and are ex CFA tanker's still in good condition. Yes they need some form of warning device as they do work along road ways but must of all they should all meet before summer with local CFS group and go over the does and donts while on the fire ground. Its fair to say that most private units belong to community groups whos members are trainned CFS members but there is still room for training these people..

[mengcfs]

As stated before there is a CFS standard for private units. They are meant to contact the Brigade/Group controlling the incident to say that they are actually on the fire ground assisting, but how on earth do we Police it
Adam

[firefighter_sa]

There is a standard for private fire appliances - as for how you police it - we do the following.

Prior to the start of the fire danger season we have a BBQ at the station and its publicly advertised throughout the Group.  At this social evening each vehicle is checked.

When I say the word check - its a safety thing, ensure the tank is secured to the vehicle, the pumps not rolling around the back of the vehicle wedged in a old tyre (If anyones been at a big rural incident before they know what I am talking about)

Its also strongly voiced during the meeting-BBQ they have to call the Group Base before heading to the fire ground (A T card is filled out and placed on the board) they are also told to let the Officer in Charge on the fire ground know they are at the fire ground - and to be tasked to a job.

Communications on the fire grounds is also explained - usually we dedicate a UHF channel or two if needed.

This is all explained at the meeting - the reasons why - and its also an insurance issue as well.

I must admit this is a rural setting with big national parks all around - big fire risks during the summer.  As for a setting in the Adelaide Hills for example - this is a little different?

I just would like to point out these little rural Firefighters do a mighty job and some times are underestimated on the fireground.

Thanks for reading

Wayne

[mengcfs]

That is great in theory. I can assure you (in our area anyway) that the community minded farmer come firefighter is only worried about one thing. Putting the fire on his/her property out, or stopping it from entering his/her property. Copious amounts of education will not enter the mind of the good spirited farmer when the "heat is on". If these very helpful private units wish to enter the fireground so be it, but on their head be it.
Adam

[oz fire]

Lads - settle - but as with anything in CFS what works at Wilmington won't always work at Meningie just as what works at Tailem Bend may not work at Stirling North!!

The principle is though - that if the farmer wants the protection (legal) and insurance that CFS provides, they need to meet the CFS requirements - now it's a hard line to follow, but even a man on the land in the heat of a fire want insurance should he roll his ute, or get it caught in the fire etc.

The problem is how CFS gets this through to the farmers/privateers who are assisting.

Adam maybe speak with Coonalpyn Group and see how they and Tatiara went with the Bee Keepers - they have a great system now in place and I think they are going to try this for fires on and off of Ngarkat?

All said and done - again a brigade by brigade effort is ALLOT of work, maybe Regional Operations Committees could take the work and in conjunction with Regional Prevention officers be proactive - allowing brigades to focus on their daily business

[strikeathird]

Wayne, thats a fantastic way of preparing the people before F/Danger season.

Adam, wayne is talking about a heavily RURAL area, where all the farmers etc pitch in during a fire, with the local CFS, because they know if they don't, No force in the world will stop the fire that develops.  It is different out there than it is towards the city.

Fair enough, that would never work in the adelaide hills.  And it shouldn't have too, with all the resources available.

But when resources are stretched thin, I say "Good on them" for giving a helping hand.  And i'm sure wayne could testify that on some occasions the Private units would have outweighed the CFS presence! (As resources are considerably less than we are used to back here)

Different way of life, and different ways of fighting fires. - At the end of the day, as long as everyone goes home, and the job is done, that is really all that matters!

[mengcfs]

Adam, wayne is talking about a heavily RURAL area, where all the farmers etc pitch in during a fire, with the local CFS, because they know if they don't, No force in the world will stop the fire that develops.  It is different out there than it is towards the city.

Hi again people. Thanks for the input. I am from a "heavy rural area" not the hills. It is fantastic to see the private units and as has been mentioned they often outweigh the CFS appliances and provide exceptional support to us. Many a time have i worked with private units and everything seems to have ran very smoothly, i guess i would just hate to see something go pear shape involving a farmer who has given up his/her time to help others (like us) due to the good ol' Aussie spirit.  Like always, education is the key, and when us volunteer firefighters have finished with our families, knocked off work, walked the dog, returned from a CFS incident, eaten on the run to a CFS meeting and grown an extra pair of hands we maybe able to deliver it.
As long as EVERYONE stays safe.
Adam
(passionate about the volunteer spirit, hates red tape, but deals with it)

[rescue5271]

I did read some where that any private unit that comes onto the fire ground must now have a working platform and not just a stand up in the ute type as has been in the past. Private units have there place on the fire ground as long as members are in the correct PPC and the appliances is safe for them to work from.

[Mike]

Im told there is a lot of stuff to come out of project Phoenix about private appliances.....

[rescue5271]

I understand there is a working party looking into private fire appliances....

[TillerMan]

There's a working party looking into everything, soon there will be a working party looking into working party's.