Experience markings

[CFS_Firey]

At a recent incident I went to, it became clear to me that a system for marking members' experience would be fantastic and possibly lifesaving.
When you are at an incident with another brigade, unless you do a lot of training with that brigade, its near impossible to tell how much people know, or how new they are...
I think the CFS should have a system of marking how long a member has been in the CFS. Whether we have the stars and chevrons on the helmets, or maybe a green strip around the helmet when the member is still in their first year.
this could save many mistakes made through assumptions that the other person knows what to do (How to re-commission a BA set, run a pump, even sink a standpipe )
Any thoughts / suggestions / experience with this kind of set up?

[Firefrog]

Nice in concept but really difficult to implement.

The issue is that time served does not equate to knowledge/skill. Take for example a member who is approaching 12mths service in a 400+ call a year brigade and has attended heaps of calls. Versus a person who has 10 years service in a 20 calls a year brigade and only makes the truck occassionally.

It's a valid fireground issue and it used to be partly solved by wearing a small patch on your overalls with BA, RCR, First Aid, HAZMAT. It's been a long while since that but did give an indication of what to expect from the person displaying the patches.

Maybe a qualification structure could be created with a different helmet insignia of some type to show what level of training you have had??? 

More questions than answers to this one.

[kat]

Agree with Firefrog. How difficult is this to manage?

And I have met the odd firie with plenty of calls under the belt and lots of training who have no idea 

Ideally Brigade leaders are well aware of the skills and competencies of their individual crew members and all taskings should be directed back to the appliance/crew officer.

And in taskings (ie NSW) where this may not be available, all crew members should have been vetted as competent anyway??

[corocfs]

maybe the system of stripes/chevrons should just be more widley used on helmets again... noone in our brigade uses it, but we all know about it... there are brigades i ahve seen using it religously however..

i have thought for a long time that it would be great if more of the blank space on our helmets was put to use....

obviouslt the names should stay on the back where they are currently...
but;
on one side i would like to see the wearer's brigades name
and on the other there qualifications...

this (in my opinion) would be shown by a set of symbols placed [as stickers] above the reflective stripe...
the stickers could be:
qual...                 sticker...
Breathing apparatus    =   BA
Senior first aid       =   +
advanced resuscitation =   O2
HAZMAT                 =   HAZ
Road Crash Rescue      =   RCR


seems like an obvious thing that would be useful in some brigades/groups.......

[CFS_Firey]

That would be a fantastic system Alex. However, I thought the reason brigades don't have the qualification stickers / patches was because the CFS decided it was a bad idea...

That was a trial, but never took off, I understand they have been asked by HQ to remove them. (Good times in "Helmet markings - use the uniform Guide!")

I also love the idea of having the brigade on the helmet... How many times have you asked a fire fighter where something is on their truck, only for them to tell you they don't know, because they are from a different brigade

[strikeathird]

Why make more hassles, and spend more money, on something like helmet stickers, arm patches etc.   

Firstly, you should all know the competencies of people in your brigade, and group.  (E.G - Neighbouring brigades...)  - If not, ask for more group training excersies.

Secondly, if at a job, and you are not sure of a persons skill... ASK THEM!

Then there is no need to make your helmet look like a scouts blanket, and no doubt as to a persons compentecies.....

[fire03rescue]

great idea
having the brigade on the helmet

[oz fire]

Brigade name on helmet - good idea!

Skills badges, markings etc NOT. As someone stated years of service does not equate to competence, nor does number of calls and level of training.

There are many fire fighters churned out through the training centres with various qualifications and competencies, however put them to the test, when the numbers are down and it's a differnet thing. It comes down to regular training, knowing your crews, your skills and being competent is what you do, before you want to do something new.

50 years ago the most respected, admired and compatant fire fighter was the one on the end of the branch, is that still the case - maybe for the once a year going structure fire .........

Making crew leaders, officers et all accountable for their crews, ensures that they take the correct people to incidents and task them appropriately ...... if people don't want to be accountable and responsible for their crews and their outcomes, then don't take the positions.

[kat]

I think there's over 100 training courses recognised by CFS on TAS?

Don't think even the Bullard would fit them

[CFS_Firey]

How about if you don't have a sticker for every course though? ie, just BA and RCR. BA can be replaced by HAZMAT as its a pre-requisite... I understand what you're saying that just because they are trained, doesn't make them 'good' at it, but at least its an indication as to what they can do... I know what the members in my brigade can do, but do you think its realistic to know what the 30 members in each of the surrounding brigades can do?

[kat]

If I am an IC I don't think I need to know what the members of my other attending Brigades can do (although I probably do) - I give the task to their appliance officer who does.

[oz fire]

you're saying that just because they are trained, doesn't make them 'good' at it, but at least its an indication as to what they can do...

I can see your point, however I believe it still comes back to the OIC of the appliance on which the crews responded with.

The other issue with qualification markings - who removes them when the person looses competency, ie if they haven't worn a BA set within their allocated 3 months, or haven't been able to attend an RCR, HAZMAT or similar re-accreditation. Very touchy subject - technically once outside their competence they shouldn't undertake the task, not only for their own safety but for those they are working with, working for and trying to help.

We could go on for ever here, but lets put them in a medical field, do you want a doctor performing heart surgery on you who undertook their training 5.5 years ago and hasn't raccreditied on the new teachings, practices, tools, procedures etc ......... now at the end of the day the patient who's  doctor has their heart in their hand is not allot different from the person laying unconscious in a burning house waiting for a competent person to rescue them - difference is the doctor can't become another physical casualty if things go wrong!!!!!

Therefore let the appliance OIC's carry the responsability, know their crews and work with them, not rely on a helmet sticker

[TillerMan]

I guess either way it can't really hurt to have them and we wouldn't really miss them if we didn't have them.

[Wagon 1]

A good point regarding doctors etc who havn't performed surgery for 5 + years, what we do is dangerous to. How often did you see people back in the day with BA, VAR, DS etc on there overalls who hadn't touched the stuff since they did the course.

I really don't know, Burnside did it for a while but were told to remove them, It could be good, but it doesn't phase me either way.

[CFS_Firey]

do you want a doctor performing heart surgery on you who undertook their training 5.5 years ago and hasn't raccreditied on the new teachings, practices, tools, procedures etc ....

Therefore let the appliance OIC's carry the responsability, know their crews and work with them, not rely on a helmet sticker

Wouldn't you rather a doctor who has had the training operate on you, rather than someone who has worked in a hospital?
The purpose of the stickers is not to say what they can do, but rather what they have trained in... You wouldn't trust your life to someone because of a Helmet sticker, but wouldn't you rather know at least what they have trained in, instead of knowing nothing?

Sure, the OIC would know his crew and what they can do, but I'm talking about what someone from another brigade knows.
At the incident I'm talking about, I was trying to find someone to replace the BA cylinder on my BA set (do a hot change), I asked several people, only for them to say that they weren't trained and didn't know anything about BA... If all I had to do was look for a little "BA" sticker, it would have saved a lot of trouble, and time.

[oz fire]

Wouldn't you rather a doctor who has had the training operate on you, rather than someone who has worked in a hospital?
The purpose of the stickers is not to say what they can do, but rather what they have trained in... You wouldn't trust your life to someone because of a Helmet sticker, but wouldn't you rather know at least what they have trained in, instead of knowing nothing?

And you would know how - show me how I can distinguish between a heart surgeon and a brain surgeon when they walk down a ward towards me.........

At the incident I'm talking about, I was trying to find someone to replace the BA cylinder on my BA set (do a hot change), I asked several people, only for them to say that they weren't trained and didn't know anything about BA... If all I had to do was look for a little "BA" sticker, it would have saved a lot of trouble, and time.

So in the time it took to walk around an incident and look for that sticker, or ask those around you, you could have taken your set off and changed it yourself!!!

Stickers are a nice idea, but they went out in the 80's when competencies started appearing. At an incident the best method is to ask, it easier when its dark too than looking through a sweaty face mask for tiny stickers on a helmet somewhere on the fire ground!!!!

Just my view, but having been in a brigade where we trailed stickers and rank markings - it made NO differacne, what so ever except to upset people as some had more stickers than others - very NON productive!!!

[Mike]

Just out of curiosity..... Why couldnt the second op change the cylinder?

[Toast]

This was an interesting incident. As for the second op not being able to do the change, we had an odd number of operators working, exterior only. The OIC of the crew in question  was donned and working, leaving the two 'junior' people of the crew next to the truck. This in itself I believe was NOT a good idea, as was shown on the day...

Also there is a basic amount of training that you hope a brigade gives to a person. All the courses in world cant help when you walk upto someone and ask "Where are your spare BA cylinders" and get the reply "I dont know, Im not BA trained".

Having a sticker or stripe or something to indicate that you are Hazmat or BA as a start would be a decent idea because, without it turning into a scout blanket situation, it would just give people a little bit more of an insight into what others around them can do. If you have six people on a truck to a hazmat job and only two operators, wouldnt it help to have a visible indicator of who are the operators? As opposed to using masking tape etc etc...

Either way, I think something needs to be put in place due to the ongoing and disjointed nature of our training.

[CFS_Firey]

Just my view, but having been in a brigade where we trailed stickers and rank markings - it made NO differacne, what so ever except to upset people as some had more stickers than others - very NON productive!!!

So having been in a brigade where they did this, can you perhaps give us a bit of a summary as to how it went? Good points (If any) and Bads? Like, why doing it convinced you it was a bad idea...? Do you think it might have made a difference for other brigades, even if it didn't for yours? etc..

[oz fire]

Sure:
Good point
 - it showed when a person had completed a training course, although this was also known by the brigade members.

Point (neither good or bad)
 - when the sticker was issued depended on when the equipment officer (sticker custodian) was present,
- was not reliable as a number (more senior) saw it as wank factor, they knew they had the skills and didn't want to waer a badge to prove it
- could not be seen at any distance, either day or night (just as the name on the rear of the helmet can't
- Other brigades still refered requests for crew/equipment/assistance to the OIC (as they should have)
- Deciding what skills - we have a number that require specialiset skills for equipment - First Aid, O2, BA, RCR, Chainsaw, Hazmat

Bad
- Did not allow for competency periods
- Needs to be policed by someone, and then fairly, and against CFS standards, not a brigade interpritation
- Promoted elitism - people who had the time to do the training or maybe those who pushed hardest to get on the training (might also be an issue with the nomination process of the brigade)
- Two sets required for those who opted for a rural helmet as well (which was 1 or 2)
- My helmet looked like a touring caravan window, not like that of a fire fighter

As for making a differance - I was around in the days of skills badging and that made little if any differance, again often people look at the person and speak to them face to face first, not the sleave first to check qualifications.

I have friends interstate where thay have used and removed and trialled a number of methods (NSWFB and QFRS) and the majority of them think that it is overkill and a waste of time, stickers and looks stupid - not to the f/s but to everyone else staning around. They believe all that is required is a rank marking

[CFS_Firey]

Thanks oz fire

[kat]

In the old days of iron on skills badges people often ended up with others overalls (BA used to have a year on it as well) complete with non removable skills badges.

A participant on a level one I was instructing on went into a fit of laughter because I had a BA badge on my overalls (which to be fair were a bit oversize - in those days overalls were hard to come by and I had to make do with what was there) saying "yeah, right, as if.."

Good way to get an instructor off side (it was my badge earned fair and sqaure)

[fire03rescue]

Boy Scout badges

[strikeathird]

I still think none of it is needed.

[Stefan KIRKMOE]

Burnside tried it with the important Training type of markings, ie. highest level of training so you had a 1, 2 or 3, RCR, BA or HZ (obviously if you have hazmat you already have BA) and first aid green square.... the official respose by CFS HQ. "We don't need to look like boy scouts, take them off!" Ok, so they worked well, looked good, easy to use and was officially granted by the ROPO a while before hand but yeah.... CFS Opinion was straight to the point!