SES vs CFS responses - split from Interesting Paging

[Zippy]

smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire....  MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...

Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.

[chook]

MFS: *CFSRES INC030 29/08/09 08:59,RESPOND STORM DAMAGE,WAIKERIE ,WAIKERIE MAP 0 0 0 TG205,NO 4 PENALUNA CR, WAIKERIE. SALT CHURCH., MINOR STORM DAMAGE. FROM SES VIA REG. 3, DUTY OFFICER.,WAIK19

Finally some sense.

And do you why Zippy because the closest unit (Barmera) has consistently over many years re-directed Waikerie tasks to Waikerie CFS, because both groups know & respect each others capabilities & Barmera believe that RCR coverage in their area is far more important. So obviously someone has finally taken the hint
Hello Numbers - where have you been? You have in your usually blunt way identified the real problems - as for the idiots comment, have a look at what some of the other comments on this thread & you wonder what it is really all about. I agree service delivery is what it is all about, Crash you example is a fair point. I can think of numerous other examples of a slow first response for various reasons - including brigades/units who can't get enough crew to respond & have to default. It happens everywhere sadly & there isn't an easy solution - big operations with multiple agencies involve still don't always result in an instant response (Renmark, Karoonda, Pinaroo, Newcastle, are examples I can Think of) Hopefully most of the time we can  assist in a timely manner but sometimes filtered just happens cheers

[chook]

I just want to clear up a few things as this is my last comment on the subject (do I hear a cheer?  )
1 The closest most appropriate resource should be sent to any job - regardless of which service.
2 This resource must be trained, competent & equipped to do the particular task, regardless of which service.
3 The system must know about the resource, hard to despatch if they don't & you can't assume that just because a certain brigade/unit is there they can actually do it !
4 I personally think that the current system that insures that brigades/units are competent is crap!
5 I think it was a mistake to remove responsibility from the local council to support the volly emergency services.
6 It was also a mistake for the SES to use "Rescue" as a marketing tool, everywhere else its combating mother nature - rescue is just one of the other things we do!
7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.
Finally I still believe that your "dream" of one service is full of danger for some of you & your towns - it hasn't worked elsewhere why do you think it will work in SA?
Anyway good luck to you all, what ever happens.
cheers

[6739264]

smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire....  MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...

Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.

Not really...

There is a huge difference between "Smoke in area" and "Smoke issuing from structure". So, for example, paging a "Smoke in area" call with the further details as "Smoke issuing from building" would be the same as paging "Smoke in Area - Large Grass&Scrub fire at this location". It makes no sense, to include specific information that is not consistent with the rest of the page and can inhibit the response to the incident. Smoke in area tends to suggest that there is smoke in an area with an unknown origin. If you can see what is burning, then it simply goes into the response category of what ever is burning... (as long as you can define it as either a Commercial or Domestic Building in the ever so rigid response parameters)

I don't know about you, but to me "Smoke issuing from building" pretty much screams that shes going like stink. Rather than the "Smoke in Area" lazy haze cause by some burn offs in the local area. (Plus, you can work a rural fire off a pumper, but a rural truck without CABA ain't so good at structure fires)

Finally it doesn't matter what service you're from, CFS or MFS, it doesn't matter what you 'think', as a comms operator you turnout based wholly on the information passed to you via the caller. You don't second guess from an office. THAT is when problems happen. (Sure the local brigade can start to modify their response based on the info from mets, and hence the caller, but thats for the OIC to do, NOT the Comms chaps.)

Anyhow, enough of dragging the thread off topic by whining about terminology.

The basic issue is that, like always, CRD is munted across all services in the State. Will it take deaths and an inquest to fix it? Hopefully not, but its looking that way. We have a nasty summer coming up, with a CRD and comms system that totally shitful. May as well go grab the old Shand Mason so atleast our apparatuses are as capable as our support systems.

*sigh*

For once I even feel sorry for the SES

[jaff]

7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.

Just for the record Chook, I have never said that any "untrained filtered wit",
can do the job of the SES! Also just for the record I have met some untrained filtered wits from the SES.......and yes quite a few from every other service...some would say I qualify for this title, but hopefully never to my face!

What I will continue to bleet about is any service that doesnt do the right thing ie "CLOSEST MOST APPROPRIATE RESOURCE"

Unlike what you say Chook, this will not be my last post on this subject...BLEET ON !

[6739264]

Closest, most appropriate retard should be responded in every instance...

[Alex]

smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire....  MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...

Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.

Not really...

There is a huge difference between "Smoke in area" and "Smoke issuing from structure". So, for example, paging a "Smoke in area" call with the further details as "Smoke issuing from building" would be the same as paging "Smoke in Area - Large Grass&Scrub fire at this location". It makes no sense, to include specific information that is not consistent with the rest of the page and can inhibit the response to the incident. Smoke in area tends to suggest that there is smoke in an area with an unknown origin. If you can see what is burning, then it simply goes into the response category of what ever is burning... (as long as you can define it as either a Commercial or Domestic Building in the ever so rigid response parameters)

I don't know about you, but to me "Smoke issuing from building" pretty much screams that shes going like stink. Rather than the "Smoke in Area" lazy haze cause by some burn offs in the local area. (Plus, you can work a rural fire off a pumper, but a rural truck without CABA ain't so good at structure fires)

Finally it doesn't matter what service you're from, CFS or MFS, it doesn't matter what you 'think', as a comms operator you turnout based wholly on the information passed to you via the caller. You don't second guess from an office. THAT is when problems happen. (Sure the local brigade can start to modify their response based on the info from mets, and hence the caller, but thats for the OIC to do, NOT the Comms chaps.)

If i may, Mr Numbers

Just a brief comment from me, that in CFS area, there is noone to blame except the CFS, whether regional or local, for poor responses. As all calls for CFS area, are either sent straight out because data has been provided to the system, or if there is no data in the system, the brigade is contacted to query who they want responded. Some locals out there make some very average choices for responses, this decision needs to be taken away from them by the State, and responses sent per SOPs only.... thats all on that.

Re; smoke in area being used for structure jobs, i have only ever seen that done for MFS area, and at the discretion of a comms officer, not every slight smell of smoke in a building needs 3 pumps an aerial and the DO to go and tell them to close the window.


Cheers.

[boredmatrix]

7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.

you mean they're not?

I've spent lots of time in urban and rural areas, and it would seem to be a sad reality that in small communities - any volunteer service seems to attract the cream ......but in larger country centres it seems to attract the dimwitted,  authority hungry,  "I can't even get a job at McD's"   types......

[6739264]

If i may, Mr Numbers

Just a brief comment from me, that in CFS area, there is noone to blame except the CFS, whether regional or local, for poor responses. As all calls for CFS area, are either sent straight out because data has been provided to the system, or if there is no data in the system, the brigade is contacted to query who they want responded. Some locals out there make some very average choices for responses, this decision needs to be taken away from them by the State, and responses sent per SOPs only.... thats all on that.

Re; smoke in area being used for structure jobs, i have only ever seen that done for MFS area, and at the discretion of a comms officer, not every slight smell of smoke in a building needs 3 pumps an aerial and the DO to go and tell them to close the window.

Cheers.

For sure, I like discussions with people who have a clue.

When comms are actively talking to CFS brigades and because of the CFS Brigade a poor decision is made, thats not really the issue. I think thats really good, and hopefully when the people involved are all switched on, it should work. I've just noticed recently that there seems to be numerous occasions where Comms have been doing their own thing... Perhaps new operators, or just a certain shift with a few mongs onboard. Ah well. but you are right, if we had more guidelines and brigade information in place, then we wouldn't be relying on country bumpkins to make decisions.

Now if only there was a way of getting the correct response type that didn't require SAMFS to turn out the cavalry to every slight smell of smoke, and Fire Alarm...

[pumprescue]

The recent storm day had mt barker ses responding without a chainsaw qualified crew, well done.........  

[Zippy]

The recent storm day had mt barker ses responding without a chainsaw qualified crew, well done.........  

Sigh....  The next nearest SES had a full compliment of crew responding..

[pumprescue]

Now is that the CFS/SES, SES or CFS with SES funding...........

[Zippy]

yeah well the fact is, the nearest CFS would still be called to the job's to assess, carry it out, pass it "Back to the SES" where needed....thats what happens locally.

[Desert Dweller]

S end  E xtra  S andwiches out goes the bait waiting for a bite, yep got one!

As I have said B4 why not just save us all $$$$Mills and get rid of SES, train CFS the few extra skills that are needed in some areas and let them deal with it. Think of how much fuel we could save?

We could also save $ by not having idle trucks & paying rent on buildings to house unused equipment as in Mt Barkers case.
Most of the time in my area SES have to come from 15kms away if they can get a crew? Meanwhile the job could have been started & 1/2 completed by either of the local Em Service just down the road who all have chainsaws(various sizes) & training ,while waiting for them to arrive. Most times they turn up under full lights and sirens I question why, is the fallen tree going to fall further and they have to hurry? No just cause they have so far to go!
Duplication is unnecessary if this was a business(private) the service would be carried out by the local branch and because of the GFC the extra non essential service from the other area would be made redundant or offered positions at the other service centre.
We will call you if we need you but leave that to the OIC, we also don't need you patrolling the streets on bad days looking for and calling in your own jobs either,like I said if we think we need you we will call you.

[Desert Dweller]

Exactly what I mean!!!

MFS: *CFSRES INC025 31/08/09 14:02,RESPOND Tree Down,6 MOUNTFORD AV,BRIDGEWATER MAP 158 E 5,P2 APPROX 1M DIAM, FALLEN ON OTHER TREES, & THREATENING TO FALL ONTO POWER LINES,CALLED ??$B? SES Mt Barker Response

Two perfectly good Fire Services nearby but I guess they have no hostage negotiators to deal with the tree that is threatening to fall so better send SES all the way from Mt Barker!!! they will be able to talk it straight back up out of harms way.

[Zippy]

that aint a emergency....thats a job for contractors outright...

[Desert Dweller]

that aint a emergency....thats a job for contractors outright...

Guaranteed L & S all the way!

Hopefully the Hostage negotiator is ready for this emergency.

Stealing jobs from the poor contractors in these tough times Shame Shame Shame

[Chinny]

OK OK OK Ease up men! I used to think firefighters were men, not bitches Some on here have some points if you want to change it well go get a job as a politician. I can guarantee most of you are loud now but if you were to be asked what you think of SES when needed, most would shut up!!

Who cares how the other service runs, lets focus on our own that ain't perfect!!!

[boredmatrix]

asked when needed most?  - like what exactly? 

Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....

[BundyBear]

Ah one should look in before one looks out!

Plenty wrong with the CFS for example brigades having group responses to some incidents when they should not, so another station in the group can keep there numbers up. Brigades sending everything out of their stations to some incidents instead of having a justified and tactical response. Brigades doing their own thing when it comes to buying equipment. Brigades attending incidents with out the right crew for the given task instead of defaulting to the next nearest brigade. Brigade members doing tasks at incidents they're not trained for!

I'm not saying the SES is perfect but neither is the CFS when you put it under the microscope.

Plenty of times my station has been responded to vehicles into houses, trees down and once we have dealt with the possible inital rescue, securing the scene or the cutting up of the tree is going to be a prolonged task we hand it over to our local SES brigade, that arrives in a timely manner not under lights and sirens and gets on with it. Why you ask so our resources can be free for any other incident that our appliances can be used for that requires a response.

How I love listening to Mong's bang on about what other services are doing!

[pumprescue]

CFS are mongs, thats a given, be hard pressed these days to find a top notch CFS brigade.

[bittenyakka]

this thread has some good stuff but any posts that purely bag out the SES will be removed. this isn't the point of this site

[crashndash]

asked when needed most?  - like what exactly? 

Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....

noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated

[BundyBear]

asked when needed most?  - like what exactly? 

Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....

noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated

"Deliver meals into the hero zone" that has to be the biggest gong beater comment of the year!

[jaff]

asked when needed most?  - like what exactly? 

Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....

noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated

"Deliver meals into the hero zone" that has to be the biggest gong beater comment of the year!

Hey Captain PC, chill out and feel the water!