Image Problem

[MATTE]

I realise i am going to get nailed by this forum simply because the following statement may offend...

The CFS has a HUGE image problem. i can now see why they axed the professional volunteer bumper stickers. The CFS is in a land of its own and each group and brigade has its own rules and regulations making some groups/brigades better than others. 2 things that annoy me and many others about the CFS is Uniform - PPE, Station wear and casual. we need standards and they need to be abided to. Secondly, the CFS DOES NOT have a lateral entry policy. It is a waste of money training someone who has a lot more operational experience than most then he has to do a new recruits course (bff1) if you question this persons experience he has been with a international Fire Service for over 20 years....

Plus CFS Recruit Standards --- Anybody can Pass BFF1, 25% of the people on a BFF1 course held at south coast wouldnt go up the ladder.

Ridiculous

[strikeathird]

I don't think you will get ne problems for posting your own opinion.

I agree bout the corporate logo, I like the STAR alot better.

You brought up some valid points, hopefully people respect your opinion.

[MATTE]

Cheers Mate, Just to let u know those people who didnt go up the ladder on the BFF1 course are now Firefighters somewhere in the state.

I guess beggars cant be choosers but there is a line and with the CFS it is crossed way too often...

[mengcfs]

Hi MATTE,
In regard to the below statement of yours. The CFS is a registered training organisation ans therefore do have policies in place for people wanting to join the CFS with prior training. It is called Recognition of current competency (RCC) or Recognition of prior learning (RPL). This is handled thru Brigade, Group, Region and State training officers. Sure there may have to be some units completed to align with CFS policy but it may be worth looking into and the new member may not have to complete a full CFS course.  And i agree with you on the CFS being more uniform with uniforms! I beleive the CFS is looking into this. If anyone out there has a copy of the Uniform manual that everyone is talking about but can't seem to put their hands on- please enlighten us!
Adam

It is a waste of money training someone who has a lot more operational experience than most then he has to do a new recruits course (bff1) if you question this persons experience he has been with a international Fire Service for over 20 years....

[oz fire]

MATTE - providing your training is current and meets the current competencies then it should be recognised. As Adam stated, as an RTO, CFS MUST recognise previous training that was delivered at the National standard and is current (RPL) - however where it isn't you can go through a process of RCC - which is a little more drawn out.

If you can't get any answers, try the Regional Training Officer - failing that Mr Watson at the FSTC looks after RPL I believe.

Re the uniform - mmmmmm ........ this goes on, and on and on and on - RC3 Chris Martin has headed this committee and review now for 18months - so maybe, just maybe one day the finalised version will be released  . Failing info from him the VFBA had reps on the committee - I think Mr Thorley.

[Fire_Rescue96]

Just a quick comment about people not going up a ladder on BFF1 course. CFS is a volunteer service and if someone doesnt feel confident enough to go up a ladder then that is their choice and I dont think they should fail until they have climbed a ladder.
If they didnt do it then they should tell there captain or officer so they know not to ask them to go up a ladder at a job.
And they can work on it at a brigade level where they may feel more confident

[strikeathird]

I got a feeling it is a little bit more indepth than the ladder.  Sounds like that was just the icing on the cake.



I have heard of people being told they got answers wrong, and that they might want to tick another box..... ?  As i said, have only HEARD about this happening................

[corocfs]

Just a quick comment about people not going up a ladder on BFF1 course. CFS is a volunteer service and if someone doesnt feel confident enough to go up a ladder then that is their choice and I dont think they should fail until they have climbed a ladder.
If they didnt do it then they should tell there captain or officer so they know not to ask them to go up a ladder at a job.
And they can work on it at a brigade level where they may feel more confident

cfs training courses are allowing incompetent people to be put on trucks all over the state... one day this ios going to backfire in a big way.

just my opinion though... im not saying im perfect, i got the odd question wrong on differant courses... but the problem is we arent then talked through the question further so that we actually understand better... they simply hint that we should  tick another box, as strikeathird said....

and im not just saying ive "heard about this happening"... ive been told to do it once. mind you i made sure that i followed it up later for my own knowledge...

this si the problem with treating us all as volunteers and not wanting to hurt our feelings? ?

[Mike]

Not being able to climb a ladder doesnt necessarily make someone incompetent. Once again it really comes down to knowing your crew and what they are capable of.

However I dont disagree with the fact that incompetent people are being passed..... I do recall a ladder drill where someone called turn on..... with the hose wrapped around their neck. Worse still they had no comprehension that this was bad...

Much to everyone else's horror, they were passed!

Need to compare critical shortcommings to things which dont effect someones ability to squirt water.

[mengcfs]

cfs training courses are allowing incompetent people to be put on trucks all over the state... one day this ios going to backfire in a big way.

Is it the courses or the instructors?
Adam

[corocfs]

well... (everyone feel free to scream at me)

i personally feel that half the CFS instructors out there are also incompetent.

[CFS_Firey]

i personally feel that half the CFS instructors out there are also incompetent.

Do you think the CFS should be employing full time instructors, so that they have to be good? It seems to me that the instructors (especially at Brukunga) don't get as much credit as they deserve...

[kat]

This is SOOO frustrating!

To be approved to deliver and assess BFF1 you have to hold a Certificate IV in Workplace Assessment and have been approved by your Group/Region to do so (ie have appropriate knowledge and experience).

My old group had 2 (now 3) of these approved instructors. To service 6 Brigades that are up to 130 km apart. (Now double that).

I'll use a recent course at Salt Creek for example. Three full, full Sundays - some particpants couldn't get to all three days suprise, suprise. The three qualified instrcutors had to give at least 2/3 days to the course, one travelling 120km each day, the other two 260km each day. The preparation took at least another day - the reading and rechecking the long answer books at least anohter 15 or so hours. These books have to go to STC so STC staff can see for themselves that these were answered adequately.

Even given this investment of volunteer time (and we all know how hard it is to get that many vollies together at times that suit them) it was very very difficult to get through the requirements. Yes, I made them all go up a ladder and if anyone had not been able to it would've been recorded in their assessment books with a reason why and forwarded to STC for their determination.

Now I love my service and I am passionate about training, but I have a full time job, four kids, and Brigade operational committments. So when I am still trying to chase down people to complete various components or check that they did really understand a point that was a bit clouded in their assessement books a month after the course - Well, you can understand why shortcuts are sometimes taken (NOT BY ME!!!)

But perhaps an instructor that appears to gloss over something is using their judgement that the person at hand has the skills and knowledge necessary to do the job.

Instructors ARE accountable if they asseess someone as competent - in your ladder example if these people had not gone up the ladder but were recorded as having done so then this should be escalated to STC level.

[corocfs]

tell me if im wrong, but once STC get the assesment sheets, all they do is look for "competent" or "incompetent" and then go by that. the info is added to TAS and certificate sent to brigade.

what you are saying Kat about vollies having to service there area for traiining, is exaclty why CFS should be looking at employing paid trainers.. but can you imagine the COST??

[kat]

I don't know if you're right or wrong and what it is STC do with the assessments. But as a BFF1 instructor I am required to forward all the entire contents of the written assessment books. On the first one I ran, I only sent the tear out sheet that the units are signed off on and was told that this was no good. Had a great deal of trouble chasing them all up after the fact, too!!!

[rescue5271]

We ran a BFF1 not long ago and where informed that all sections had to be filled in that all books and the student section had too be signed on each page then when course was over the whole lot not just the tear out section had to go back to region. They are held in storage for as long as they want. We have 10 or 15 approved instuctors in our group say problem as you kat run a course people dont attend all days and have to catch up somewhere else or wait till next year...

 the other problem we had was that people from DEH where ment to be doing our course but went to salt creek in region 3???

[kat]

Not enough communication?

The people from DEH were from Meningie and some of them made it to some parts of our BFF1 at Salt Creek.

Definately issues with training people from organisations that have no avenue to practice it, no PPE and you have no prior (or after) knowledge of them.

[Wagon 1]

I agree hole heartedley with comments by MATTE and others, you can't do it, get out, I don't want you on my crew, if I have a crew of 4 during the day, I have a house on fire, say a 2 story, and my crew can't go up a ladder, what do I say to the coroner when I couldn't rescue a person trapped on the second floor, get real people, this isn't a game, so stop treating it like one!!! Its people going soft on recruits that gives this service a bad name, I live in a CFS area so I want the best damn crew I can get, not a bunch of people that were ok but not quite good on everything but hey they want to give it a go so we will let them in.

THIS ISN'T A GAME

PS: my thoughts, so don't bash me for wanting the best.

[Mike]

I have no issues with taking a person that cant climb a ladder. After all there are hoses to drag.... pumps to run... and with brigades short on daytime crews.... everyone that can help is welcome.

And i would be responding more than 1 crew as well.... knowing help is on the way.

Your right its not a game, and deserves to be treated with respect, however, the people in the service need to be treated with respect as well.

Not climbing a ladder is not exactly life threatening to them or to me... and we're the people that come first.

With everything thats been said in mind... lets put a different spin on the question:
We have a standard that says a minimum of 4 crew. If you ONLY had 4 crew including this person what would you do? Imaging what the coroner would say if something went wrong then!

[corocfs]

agree with wagon1

the crews needs to be able to fulfill all duties.

[oz fire]

Maybe a different angle!

Would MFS allow someone through for not climbing a ladder??

Would SAAS allow someone through who couldn't bandage??

Would SAPol allow someone in who couldn't drive a car???

Climbing a ladder is a 'basic' fire service action and skill, hence why it is in BFF1 and not Leadership or Compartment, Hazmat or alike. We are not a second rate service, we are a professional service, who's communities and families rely on to provide a professional and competant service, 24/7.

We need to accept there are basic skills required of ALL operational crews. We also need to accept that there is a place in this fire service for everyone, it may not however be on the front line - it's a big service, theres allot to do and not many to do it, so finding something else to do in the service wouldn't be hard!

[Mike]

Granted, but life is not perfect....

We have a standard that says a minimum of 4 crew. If you ONLY had 4 crew including this person what would you do?

Would you choose not to respond?
Would you choose to only go with 3 people?

Daytime crewing is a problem for almost everyone, so the scenario in not that unrealistic!

Being afraid of heights is not uncommon. That doesn't mean a person should be confined to the radio room for the rest of their lives. I would go sending them on strike teams or anything like that, but I would still take them to a fire.

At training I would be making a point of helping these people deal with heights. It only takes 1 step at a time!

Professional does not necessarily equal perfect...

That fact is that If this person is sent away from BFF1 then the officers of that brigade need to be made aware of the shortfall so it can be delt with appropriately.

[Wagon 1]

Yes, but I guess the issue a lot are saying here is people are leaving these BFF1's with a pass mark, when they really should be sent away to practice more, I have been there and seen it happen, my BA course was a classic example, people were given a pass that couldn't work out which way was in or out on a guideline in the last excersize!!

[oz fire]

Mike I agree - it's not perfect and thats the GREAT thing about competency training, you, the brigade whoever can work with the person until they are competant, until they can climb that ladder, overcome the fear and undertake the task - what a great system competency based training is and what a great job it will do for all those who undertake it into the future!!!

[kat]

We are a volunteer fire service and when we have unlimited human resources to draw on we can take the best of the best that can do every job under the sun. Some of our members can't operate a BA set (you'd think that a critical fire service skill?) - ie: the vast majority of our service membership, but we still manage to find a role for them in the service.

I have had a big, tough, burly BA operator refuse to go up a ladder at a working job and just had to find someone else.

I have had crew members capable of things sometimes and not others (maybe due to external factors - their day at work, fatigue, emotional issues).

We are a team, have different skills and experiences and different things to offer. A good Brigade will try to encourage all members to develop their skills and confidence and be the best firies they can be. Sadly many are quick to knock others so they look better in comparison. The member who can't go up a ladder today maybe will be able to with support, training and encouragement.

I need a firie to go up a ladder maybe once every 50 jobs. I can make do with the 95% of members that are happy to do it. The other 5% are still of great value to the service, I think?