Author Topic: Budgets  (Read 15310 times)

Offline Rainer

  • Forum Firefighter
  • **
  • Posts: 36
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Budgets
« on: April 26, 2009, 10:50:40 PM »
Hi All,

Ran out of money the other day....(not mine the Group Budget)

Did a little digging and discovered that we have not bought or paid for anything that wasnt needed in the day to day running of a fire brigade (CFS Group) of 8 stations and a fleet of 30 vehicles covering over 16000 people (sensus statistic) and  over 650 Sq Km of district.

Funnily enough we ran out of money earlier this year than last because I instructed my Captains to not purchase anything with their brigade fundraising accounts that should be supplied by the SACFS eg: GPS units, boots, nozzles, helmet torches etc etc you know stuff that the average CFS vol or brigade buys for their members because the CFS does not supply it.

This highlighted the issue that perhaps the monies allocated to our group are not a true reflection of our needs /activities??

Is it possible that the volunteers ethic of "filling the shortfalls" with their own cash is to some extent hiding the true cost of the CFS??

As many of you know I work for the SAMFS and the idea that we would go out and sell a meat tray at the local to raise money for a new TFT is ludicrous..So the question is, should CFS members be expected to raise money for shortcomings in the system? bearing in mind that we are (as a sector) all funded from the ESL.

I have identified a number of shortcomings (some broad examples below) and I should preface the following by making you all aware that the brigades and groups only see about 5.5 mill out of the 56 mill allocated to the CFS.

1.There is absolutely no allowance for any IT related equipment in our budget.

That means no computers printers servers photocopiers etc etc

2.There does not seem to be any increase to account for CPI in our budget

3.There is no allowance for "non-standard" stowage replacement so when things like PPV's, rescue ropes, airbags, disc-cutters, brigade owned vehicles, etc need to be replaced it has to come out of your own money.

And I add that whilst it may be argued ad-infinitum wether we need or dont need certain things the bottom line is that if you have them then they will not get replaced when they break.
And furthermore it can be argued that perhaps the SFEC which was reviewed in 2000 (actually they just put the year 2000 on the 1994 copy) may not be a true reflection of what our current activities are...for example EMA and MA ...the CFS does not make any allowances for brigades fulfilling this function which would see most urban fringe brigades have urban pumpers and higher SFEC levels for training in BA RCR etc etc.

4.There is absolutely no money allocated to our infrastructure (buildings and land) for maintenance.

the CFS took on every CFS building and CFS station in the state with the ESL but the government neglected to fund them a red cent for the maintenance and upkeep of all this infrastructure ..

5.THe CFS got the @#$%ing aircrane shoved down their throats at the budget price of 12 mill when we could have run an extra 8 fixed wing bombers for half the money albeit this is federal money but at the end of the day its just another backslapping political stunt for little or no net gain for us busting our humps to make every dollar stretch that little bit further..

sorry to bang on but I bet if you stopped spending your hard earned to prop up the system the CFS would be up for at least another 1-2 million for brigades and groups statewide which is really bugger all (to those pollies reading this).

I honestly believe the "true" cost of the CFS is completely hidden to those in government and I would call on all of you to stop spending your fundraising money on things that by rights the CFS should supply to you.

Rainer
Mt Lofty Group Officer

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 10:55:30 PM »
Hear...Hear.

I think personally ive racked up about $300, out of pocket.  eg.  $66 Taipan High cut structural boots off ebay, completely perfect an in use right now replacing Level 1 Low Cut boots (never supplied high cut structural when obtained BA).

Looking out at the CFS firefighter population, how many would have made similar purchases just for boots...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 11:03:44 PM by Zippy »

Offline joff

  • Forum Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 11:09:57 PM »
Well said Rainer...

I am very disappointed and saddened to see what the CFS management are turning the CFS into. How can brigades get shot down when asking for basic needs for the day to day running of their brigades. We need more hose, well sorry you do not need more then the standard stowage?? We need to replace our airbags on our rescue truck, sorry you do not need airbags to rescue people just make do with the 20 year old rescue gear yo have? We have new member and need more gear and room, sorry we do not have the money for that. It is not very encouraging to new members joining that we cannot fit them out properly and have no money to support them.

It is about time to stop the so called in fighting between brigades, groups and the like and stand up for the basic rights and needs of brigades...

Offline Master of Disaster

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 12:00:22 AM »
VOTE 1 RAINER VOTE 1 RAINER VOTE 1 RAINER


Offline Baxter

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • ho ho ho its fire fighting time
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 12:14:26 AM »
Rainer to many true points and  i hope some regional and state staff members have a good read.

I read my "Crystal" finance report that is taken to each Group Meeting and I have a good laugh at the finances as somethings that is so clear that even a blind man can see they spent way to much on an item that they have purchased e.g. a thermal fax machine for $450.00 I purchased the same model a week later for $60.00.

Rainer I am in so much agreement about expenses that are related to maintenance or brigade owned equipment due to short fall in SFEC requirements. I received for my brigade 2nd hand equipment as replacement items. If for example I need a new 38 I get a 2nd hand one.

Building maintenance is occurring in my region but I do question some things like spraying for insects but it comes with the caveat of being sorry you have to use a shared toilet with the local hostel that leaks or don't worry about the roof falling in or the white ants that have allowed a wall to collapse inwards. Reason why we are in this squaller as we are a small brigade. To me this argument stinks of the haves and the have nots.

I know a neighbouring Brigade that have to drive there truck in front wards in order to access the door. I could go on but the list of the haves not is steady growing and by the look of things it will get worse not better.
 
As the CFS media says we are professionals and a modern fire service  :-D
keep it simple for sanity skes please

Darren

  • Guest
Re: Budgets
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 08:06:24 AM »
Nah all the CFS staff will do is give Rainer a serve and set out to destroy him and his group....

Offline joff

  • Forum Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 08:45:44 AM »
Yeah cannot have a group officer who is smarter then the staff in the regions.

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 11:26:38 AM »
...And furthermore it can be argued that perhaps the SFEC which was reviewed in 2000 (actually they just put the year 2000 on the 1994 copy) may not be a true reflection of what our current activities are...for example EMA and MA ...the CFS does not make any allowances for brigades fulfilling this function which would see most urban fringe brigades have urban pumpers and higher SFEC levels for training in BA RCR etc etc....

See the March 2009 'SAFECOM COMMent' newsletter, page 8. It will be interesting to see the results of the 'Emergency Services Delivery Standards' working party.

....4.There is absolutely no money allocated to our infrastructure (buildings and land) for maintenance.

the CFS took on every CFS building and CFS station in the state with the ESL but the government neglected to fund them a red cent for the maintenance and upkeep of all this infrastructure ..

SAFECOM manage the building infrastructure, not CFS. All agencies put their priority requests in & the money is divided up.

Some how the pressure needs to be applied to SA Government that we need more $$ in a co-ordinated way. Not individual SASESVA & SACFSVA actions when compared to UFU action.

See the March 2009 'SAFECOM COMMent' newsletter, page 2. Hopefully the '...undertake a condition audit of buildings..' will provide some progress for CFS & SES agencies from a OH&SW perspective.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline TillerMan

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 11:58:28 AM »
Ah haha the service delivery standard working party will just go "ok lets give less service", they will go lets stop cutting trees up and tell the council to do it, lets stop going to alarms and get chubb to do it, lets stop going to MVA spills and give SAAS a broom and fire extinguisher. There is no way more money will be gained unless A: the ESL is increased which is a great way to lose an election or B: we have a massive disaster like Sept 11 in Adelaide and all of a sudden the magic extra govt money will be found under the couch. Saying that i do think that so much money is wasted and like Rainer said groups get a small fraction of the budget.

I say combine the MFS, CFS and SES and that will save millions eg.(use 1 x $800 disc cutter 20 times a year at salisbury "emergency service" station compared to useing 3 x $800 disc cutters once a year at Northern suburbs ses, 4 times a year at Salisbury CFS and 15 times a year at Salisbury MFS)

Offline jaff

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 12:09:50 PM »
SAFECOM, yeh theyre worthwhile NOT!
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2009, 12:14:23 PM »
Put 1 chainsaw on each Fire appliance,  I think thats enough to serve South Australia, state-wide for Tree Downs.

Oh hang on, arent they already on most appliances? :P

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 01:48:59 PM »
Put 1 chainsaw on each Fire appliance,  I think thats enough to serve South Australia, statewide for Tree Downs.

Oh hang on, aren't they already on most appliances? :P

Gee, I hope the Volunteer Association reps on the Committees / Working Parties are more cooperative to give the best to the community, rather than just fighting amongst ourselves with the old "we are better than you" argument.

Otherwise, the UFU will gain majority and the combined SA Emergency Service hierarchy will be all MFS staff.

If you wish to be sarcastic, how much is the new MFS stations costing compared to the CFS/SES building upgrades (including the Pt Lincoln combined building) during the past two years ??? Now where did the $$ from the capital building budget go.......
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline TillerMan

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2009, 02:34:03 PM »
MFS stations will always happen at the rate they happen, no amount of money sunk into volunteer services will help stop that. If it was one service you could spend say $4.5m to make a "SA emergency service" station instead of $4mil on an MFS station, $1mil on a CFS station and $1mil on an SES station. Only need one set of loos, one kitchen, etc etc... therefore in my example saving $1.5mil which is 6 x 34 appliances. It would be so easy to save money.

Also on that subject imagine how much better the membership would be.

pumprescue

  • Guest
Re: Budgets
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2009, 02:38:10 PM »
Tillerman, there are to many ego's to let it happen, especially when their biggest worry right now is people holding rank who are paid staff.... :roll:

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2009, 03:03:32 PM »
Tillerman, there are to many ego's to let it happen, especially when their biggest worry right now is people holding rank who are paid staff.... :roll:

Fully agree with that comment ....
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 06:30:59 PM »
Sorry guys but the combined service you all dream of doesn't work!
Qld & WA still have their Rural Fire services & SES - now they are having to spend more to bring them up to standard (after years of neglect).
Because during major events (cyclones, floods), the "mega services" can't cope.
NSW is doing the same thing, storms/ floods over the last 10 years put the badly equipped badly trained SES under the pump (government investigations) & the almighty NSWFB can't be everywhere! So guess what? New funding module, treated as equals with the two fire services, heaps of media exposure, easy equipment system, streamlined training etc. Victoria is even more forward thinking (after years of the CFA can do it all), the good part of there system is an umbrella organisation that co-ordinates it all.
I agree shared facilities, training etc is a good idea. But as far as "the one service for all things" go then I have seen nothing yet that convinces me that it can work.
Ken
just another retard!

rescue5271

  • Guest
Re: Budgets
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 08:26:25 PM »
May be its time that some groups took back to running their own needs rather than the regional BSO who will call one supplier and not another...In this day and age we should be buying things at a cheaper rate but we should also be buying in bulk,We should be getting quotes or may be CFS should go back to a central store run by a private firm who will source the best price for what ever a brigade or group needs???


I bang my head when someone calls me for a price only to find out that they went to the more expensive firm and then the call me and ask why did they pay so much from XYZ company....I say shop around or make it clear who you want your gear to come from....

uniden

  • Guest
Re: Budgets
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 08:34:46 PM »
Its a bit hard to compare the cost of building a CFS station to that of an MFS one. Seeing that the MFS stations incorporate sleeping quarters/living quarters etc.  Naturally they are going to cost more than most `new` CFS stations that are just glorified sheds.

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 07:03:47 AM »
Which I found odd when I first found that out. In any other organisation, if you are on the night shift you actually work. Not get paid to sleep, exercise in the gym, watch TV etc.
And in the combined MFS SES building at Renmark (which is a very nice facility to look at by the way), its not very practical anyway!
Having a combined crew room, training room & incident room which is located between the radio room & Engine bays was not a very smart design feature.
When looking at budgets, you have to look at the whole picture.
Whilst I agree having 3 disc cutters at Salisbury may seem wasteful, there is also a high degree of risk in that area which may require the use of all three of them & more e.g. plane from Parafield crashes into our milk plant for example (which by the way we have planned for).
Look at brand new appliances/ trucks going to low callout brigades/Units, Non rescue units having pagers & in every state having a different uniform (imagine what sought of bulk purchase price you could get if the whole country went to one style). Duplication in the fire services - still! The list goes on & on. And yes there is a lack of money, bought about by central control & lack of local community involvement - what if the local council/brigade/unit had to come up with a 1/4 of the $ for that new building or vehicle? And the council guys doing their tasks instead of palming it off to SES to save on overtime?
On could go on all day - but you get the picture! I'm sure if you walked around your brigade/station or unit you could find heaps of things that are just wasteful - so I will leave it at that!
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline Darius

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2009, 10:28:38 AM »
May be its time that some groups took back to running their own needs rather than the regional BSO who will call one supplier and not another...

dunno about your region Bill but from where I sit the BSO is not the problem (far from it in fact, she does her best to help us) the problem is govt and CFS policy.  Eg. just to pick one of my hobby horses: computer gear. 

We are told policy is we are forced to buy all computer (and related) gear through SAFECOM.  So we get the HP desktop PCs (which are fine) but pay twice the going rate.  SAFECOM/CFS say that's because it includes "support".  But I'd rather not pay for "support" and do it myself or deal with a local supplier.  When bits break just buy new parts and/or take it back to the local supplier, who because they know it's for the local CFS, they give good service and a good price.  This is what the govt loses out on - and worse still it is deliberately not supporting the local community/businesses yet relying on that same local community to support the CFS!

(and of course, as Rainer says, there is no budget provided to brigades/groups for computer stuff so whatever a group wastes through SAFECOM this way means less money to spend on other things)

I sometimes wonder if we are not heading to the point where in another few years my group would not be better off breaking away from CFS as such as seeking our own funding from a combination of local councils again, fundraising (which we do anyway), major sponsorship and fees for service (eg. alarm monitoring, false alarms etc).  Given the puny amount we get as a group budget it should not be that hard to do from the financial side with some dedicated financial people in the group organising it.  And I kind of like the idea of the "Stirling Hotel BWC" (for example).


Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2009, 11:17:37 AM »
Sorry guys but the combined service you all dream of doesn't work!..... Victoria is even more forward thinking (after years of the CFA can do it all), the good part of there system is an umbrella organisation that co-ordinates it all.
I agree shared facilities, training etc is a good idea. But as far as "the one service for all things" go then I have seen nothing yet that convinces me that it can work.

Personally, I think we are heading for the Victorian model where SAFECOM or Shared Services will administer everything that is duplicated in the three agencies. But this will have paid staff running as they try to keep parts has 'unique' (eg radio communications, CFS to look after the VHF network, MFS to look after the MDT, everyone looking after SAGRN equipment using SAPOL Technical. What tha !!! ).

Chook, never said that all agencies join together. It would not work in having enough emphasis on coverage of ALL community risks.

But for volunteers it will be interesting how the 'Services Delivery Standards' working party interprets the statistics & maps produced a few years ago. This will affect all of us, so I hope our representatives do a good job for the community.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline RES3CUE

  • Forum Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2009, 02:52:57 PM »
Are all those trucks really needed in some groups like Mt Lofty group, i mean they can't all be crewed and they aren't all that crash hot, no offence to Stirling but that rescue is just no good. A few $$$$ could be saved by actually reveiwing trucks around the joint.

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2009, 04:59:46 PM »
No worries mate - was actually talking to the others when I said about combined services :wink: Seems to come up every time at then end of the major fire season & after a storm event - 200 jobs thats nuthin :wink:
Personally I think the Victorian model works well,same as ours - if you want to fight fires in building NSWFB, Fight fires in the bush RFS, Storm/flood SES. Only rescue is a bit of a dogs breakfast but that is being soughted out.
And if you want to do all 4 - join all 4!
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline big bronto

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2009, 05:19:13 PM »
Chook i think you have that a tad wrong about victoria...
MFB do everything, CFA do everything, SES do rescue and cut up trees...

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Budgets
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 09:08:54 PM »
Not most vollie units BB :wink:
And the word is CFA won't be expanding their non fire related tasks.
And there is more to storms than cutting up trees.
But fair point! I was a bit simplified on NFWFB as well (thought I would correct myself before someone else did).
Back to Victoria - do you think it will change after the RC?

Ken
just another retard!