SES P1 responses when the SCC opens

[pumprescue]

I was under the impression that if an SES job was warranted P1 that the fire service was to also be responded due to the time it takes the SES to respond and the fact that a P1 job is a life risk. Any reason this doesn't happen and why the protocol isn't followed when the SES SCC is opened ? I am well aware that this isn't always followed when it goes through MFS either, but you think SES would be trying to set an example ?

[chook]

Quite correct - in metro areas. However the unit concerned was already active on a P4 task so a quick turn around no big deal really. I thought so anyway
Anyway stay dry - we are loving the rain here!
cheers

[mattb]

That is an interesting poing P/R, you watch the MFS & CFS responding flat out before the SES SCC opens, then they open their call centre and bang nothing at all for the rest of the day, until the SES SCC closes and then off they go again.

Why is there a different level of response just because someone else is handling the call receipt and dispatch ?? Isn't there a Service Level Agreement that any P1 jobs are a dual response ??

Not that I want to run around in the wind and rain, but when you hear that the SES are flat out and can't get to jobs for hours it does seem a little odd that there is not more dual responding happening sometimes.

[jaff]

Stacking of jobs = Poor service delivery

[chook]

It happens in most states.
Not sure if you guys understand how budgets work but here it goes:-
Fire services - lead agency fire/hazmat (thats what you are budgeted for)
State Emergency Service - lead agency storm flood.
Budgets are based on forcasted spend - usually a mixture of historical data & likely activity for the forcoming year.
Now my guess is that SA Fire services would be "over budget" this year (deployments to Victoria & increased tasking).
Therefore fire service chiefs would be a bit nervous about going further over budget - especially in these times of economic restraint!
And by making the civilians wait a bit for low  priority help they may become more self sufficient (this actually does happen in other states).
I know it seems stupid but that is the real world, infact yourserviceheads would be looking at this on at least a weekly basis.
And if you think volunteers cost nothing, think again:- power, fuel, wear &  tear on equipment etc.
Finally how many of your brigades have the right type & qty of equipment? And are trained? And based on past experience if warranted the SDO would have activated additional crews (even fireservice ones).
If you really want to get wet & cold - join your local unit. If not sit back & relax - until nextfireseason of course.

[Zippy]

Service Level Agreement for CFS & SES...whats that......BF1

[Pipster]

It happens in most states.
Not sure if you guys understand how budgets work but here it goes:-
Fire services - lead agency fire/hazmat (thats what you are budgeted for)
State Emergency Service - lead agency storm flood.
Budgets are based on forcasted spend - usually a mixture of historical data & likely activity for the forcoming year.
Now my guess is that SA Fire services would be "over budget" this year (deployments to Victoria & increased tasking).
Therefore fire service chiefs would be a bit nervous about going further over budget - especially in these times of economic restraint!
And by making the civilians wait a bit for low  priority help they may become more self sufficient (this actually does happen in other states).
I know it seems stupid but that is the real world, infact yourserviceheads would be looking at this on at least a weekly basis.
And if you think volunteers cost nothing, think again:- power, fuel, wear &  tear on equipment etc.
Finally how many of your brigades have the right type & qty of equipment? And are trained? And based on past experience if warranted the SDO would have activated additional crews (even fireservice ones).
If you really want to get wet & cold - join your local unit. If not sit back & relax - until nextfireseason of course.

I cannot believe that the stacking of storm / flood jobs is caused by budgetry constraints!!!

In the last 15 years, I reckon my brigade has been called only once to assist SES with a pile of storm / flood calls in the metro area.

We have certainly not been over budget every year for the last 15 years!

As for CFS as a whole being over budget this year, that I don't know, but I'd suggest that the cost of sending CFS crews to Victoria will have come out of the CFA, not the CFS budget.  As for increase in incidents - of the brigades I have spoken to, many of them have had a much quieter year than average...my own brigade has had about half the number of calls this year, compared to an average year.  I think there are several right across the state in a similar postion.

To me it seems crazy to keep the SES crews out for extended periods of time, doing all these jobs, and potentially flogging the willing horse, when other services could assist - regardless of the cost to the budget!

And surely, OH & S would come into this whole scenario - it being unsafe to keep people working long hours, in some pretty average conditions....

It'd suggest the job stacking is alot more to do with tribalism, than concerns for other people's budgets!!

Pip

[6739264]

I still stand by the fact that, in the Metro Area atleast, if an SES unit is traveling under lights and sirens to a job, then the Fire Service in that area should be turning out as well.

If you are only to use lights/sirens to a job that involves a risk to life, how can it possibly be suggested that the closest emergency service should not also attend?

I for one don't like getting wet and cold, but it I get wet and cold whilst ensuring the safety of my local community, then so be it. If someone calls 000 for an emergency, then don't we as the Emergency Services have a duty to get there as fast as possible, no matter what colour the uniform/truck? And no matter where the line in the sand is drawn for response areas?

[chook]

While I'm wearing my civilian hat agree, it goes as I said. In the past I have turned out Fire crews to flood/storm events & was questioned why I did that. Then it was explained to me what I said above - and further if it continually happens one service in particular puts in for a bigger slice of the pie! At of course to the detriment of the others
Remember all of these things are decided by paid public servants(regardless of the uniform they may wear). The DO's are also cut from the same cloth - they are looking at their next promotion, not protecting their current service IMHO.
So tribalism doesn't come into it Pip.
Personally I think the current situation in SA is very poor - in a number of areas not just this one. And as a current payer of ESL I'm certainly not happy with what goes on in the state of the crow eater.
However I'm sure things will change one day, just onequestion Numbers what if theSES is the closest rsource - do they still need firies to hold their hand when going P1? Sometimes having unqualified ESO's tear arsing to a job is more pain than its worth
On that note have a good nite & stay safe
 

[misterteddy]

If you are only to use lights/sirens to a job that involves a risk to life, how can it possibly be suggested that the closest emergency service should not also attend?

is that the case???.....someone better tell one of the SES Units around the place then ....it's light bars, yee-haws and squealing tyres to every job

[bajdas]

A lot of this issue is the computer database systems not being integrated & the way it operates....this will be fixed with SACAD....other issues also play a part.

Dalkeith & Salisbury CFS called to incidents this morning in northern metro area by SES. Country areas referred to closest resource with the equipment, which is sometimes CFS.

[bajdas]

...If someone calls 000 for an emergency, then don't we as the Emergency Services have a duty to get there as fast as possible, no matter what colour the uniform/truck? And no matter where the line in the sand is drawn for response areas?

If someone calls 000, you will be answered by MFS ComCen at all times. Then the dual response will happen automatically. This covers RCR for example.

If someone calls 132500, you could be answered by MFS ComCen or SES SOCU. Then the different systems come into play.

[TillerMan]

So what you are saying is the public should just ring 000 to get the best response coz our current database is only at A/Fire? Sounds much less complicated.

I will never go P1 to a tree down unless it is stated there is a life risk, why risk the firefighters driving P1 in wet weather for a bit of gardening.

[chook]

1 SES has a very firm policy on P1 responses - if individual units/teams are going full noise to storm jobs without good reason then they are in breach & need to be dealt with by the SES,
2 The 132500 number is a NATIONAL number for SES response, developed so that the 000 system doesn't get jammed during major storm flood events - this is what the fire services fought for.
Finally don't judge the whole service on the actions of a few ****heads, I for one never went to Storm/flood jobs P1/ unless told to i.e. Renmark storm event, Pinnaroo storm event e.t.c.
I suggest if you have an issue contact the SES Chief officer.

[RescueHazmat]

Ken,

Is the criteria of 'dispatch' actually different in the SES-OC compared to AF, or would it be down to different operators doing different things?


It just seems concerning that you will get one response if you talk to AF, and possibly a completely different one if you get through to the SES-OC.

[chook]

Sorry mate - I'm not sure. It certainly shouldn't be, not according to the documents I had access to. Afterall they were used to "educate" the AF people when the comcenswere combined.
Having said that, I never did like dealing with SOC, lack of experience/ practice did cause us problems at times (was asked to go to Swanreach once for a flooding church until I explained that Swanreach CFS & Blanchtown SES were a bit closer ).
Sadly I don't have access to the particular document
Andrew should be able to help though.
cheers

[Zippy]

It happens in most states.
Not sure if you guys understand how budgets work but here it goes:-
Fire services - lead agency fire/hazmat (thats what you are budgeted for)
State Emergency Service - lead agency storm flood.
Budgets are based on forcasted spend - usually a mixture of historical data & likely activity for the forcoming year.
Now my guess is that SA Fire services would be "over budget" this year (deployments to Victoria & increased tasking).
Therefore fire service chiefs would be a bit nervous about going further over budget - especially in these times of economic restraint!
And by making the civilians wait a bit for low  priority help they may become more self sufficient (this actually does happen in other states).
I know it seems stupid but that is the real world, infact yourserviceheads would be looking at this on at least a weekly basis.
And if you think volunteers cost nothing, think again:- power, fuel, wear &  tear on equipment etc.
Finally how many of your brigades have the right type & qty of equipment? And are trained? And based on past experience if warranted the SDO would have activated additional crews (even fireservice ones).
If you really want to get wet & cold - join your local unit. If not sit back & relax - until nextfireseason of course.

I cannot believe that the stacking of storm / flood jobs is caused by budgetry constraints!!!

In the last 15 years, I reckon my brigade has been called only once to assist SES with a pile of storm / flood calls in the metro area.

We have certainly not been over budget every year for the last 15 years!

As for CFS as a whole being over budget this year, that I don't know, but I'd suggest that the cost of sending CFS crews to Victoria will have come out of the CFA, not the CFS budget.  As for increase in incidents - of the brigades I have spoken to, many of them have had a much quieter year than average...my own brigade has had about half the number of calls this year, compared to an average year.  I think there are several right across the state in a similar postion.

To me it seems crazy to keep the SES crews out for extended periods of time, doing all these jobs, and potentially flogging the willing horse, when other services could assist - regardless of the cost to the budget!

And surely, OH & S would come into this whole scenario - it being unsafe to keep people working long hours, in some pretty average conditions....

It'd suggest the job stacking is alot more to do with tribalism, than concerns for other people's budgets!!

Pip

MFS: *CFSRES INC008 28/04/09 04:21,RESPOND Tree Down,ADELAIDE-LOBETHAL RD,BASKET RANGE MAP 123 A 15,2 KM ADELIADE SIDE OF BASKET RANGE TRANS,PORT SA ON SCENE REQUEST ASSIST RE TREE,ACCROSS RD PH 0401124056 P1,CAM020

Noteworthy its a Priority 1 response.

[TillerMan]

BOMS is only at Adelaide Fire, that is why the CFS SOC was closed, in saying that though there were very strict guidelines saying who went to what and most fringe brigades responses came from Adelaide fire back then as well because BOMS has the data of who exactly should go to each street including MFS.

It is good that the SES SCC opens to take the load off but possibly somehow every response should still go through BOMS or CAD when it comes in.

As for a few people going P1 i am in the burbs and see it all the time for the smallest jobs... and on that i saw 2 the other day with trailers on!!!! What the, CFS has a policy that you can not go P1 with a trailer attached.

And yes i have complained, in the same complaint was why a chainsaw operator was not wearing chaps or a helmet.

[bajdas]

Sorry mate - I'm not sure. It certainly shouldn't be, not according to the documents I had access to. Afterall they were used to "educate" the AF people when the comcenswere combined.
Having said that, I never did like dealing with SOC, lack of experience/ practice did cause us problems at times (was asked to go to Swanreach once for a flooding church until I explained that Swanreach CFS & Blanchtown SES were a bit closer ).
Sadly I don't have access to the particular document
Andrew should be able to help though.
cheers

Have information & my personal opinion, but I better not say in a public forum....otherwise I will get my but kicked again...because my opinion is different from the Organisation...

[bajdas]

...and on that i saw 2 the other day with trailers on!!!! What the, CFS has a policy that you can not go P1 with a trailer attached....

Sorry, but am I missing something....what does a CFS Policy have to do with SES ?? The SES Trucks & light Rescue vehicles are very different to a CFS 24 truck. (eg lighter), so towing capacity will be different.

Just because CFS says no does not mean every agency follows suit.

[chook]

As of July 2008 there was no policy
And as some of us know P1 & P2 for us is very similar P1 dual response in metro(read SAMFS full time)areas P2 SES only response lights & sounds - that is from the document that you have Andrew & can't speak to 
The idea of towing trailers at high speed horrifies some but what can you do? Give every SES unit 3 or more trucks?
In fact driving heavy trucks at high speed (driven by people whose only experience in driving heavy vehicles is in a part emergency service) scares the crap out of me but what the hey
By rights the driver should be using common sense when towing trailers, but you know what they say about common sense!
Finally if you couldn't tow trailers at high speed, how do the USAR & rescue boat responses get on then? By the way we only have a dual cab, 2 boats & a trailer
cheers

[Pipster]

It happens in most states.
Not sure if you guys understand how budgets work but here it goes:-
Fire services - lead agency fire/hazmat (thats what you are budgeted for)
State Emergency Service - lead agency storm flood.
Budgets are based on forcasted spend - usually a mixture of historical data & likely activity for the forcoming year.
Now my guess is that SA Fire services would be "over budget" this year (deployments to Victoria & increased tasking).
Therefore fire service chiefs would be a bit nervous about going further over budget - especially in these times of economic restraint!
And by making the civilians wait a bit for low  priority help they may become more self sufficient (this actually does happen in other states).
I know it seems stupid but that is the real world, infact yourserviceheads would be looking at this on at least a weekly basis.
And if you think volunteers cost nothing, think again:- power, fuel, wear &  tear on equipment etc.
Finally how many of your brigades have the right type & qty of equipment? And are trained? And based on past experience if warranted the SDO would have activated additional crews (even fireservice ones).
If you really want to get wet & cold - join your local unit. If not sit back & relax - until nextfireseason of course.

I cannot believe that the stacking of storm / flood jobs is caused by budgetry constraints!!!

In the last 15 years, I reckon my brigade has been called only once to assist SES with a pile of storm / flood calls in the metro area.

We have certainly not been over budget every year for the last 15 years!

As for CFS as a whole being over budget this year, that I don't know, but I'd suggest that the cost of sending CFS crews to Victoria will have come out of the CFA, not the CFS budget.  As for increase in incidents - of the brigades I have spoken to, many of them have had a much quieter year than average...my own brigade has had about half the number of calls this year, compared to an average year.  I think there are several right across the state in a similar postion.

To me it seems crazy to keep the SES crews out for extended periods of time, doing all these jobs, and potentially flogging the willing horse, when other services could assist - regardless of the cost to the budget!

And surely, OH & S would come into this whole scenario - it being unsafe to keep people working long hours, in some pretty average conditions....

It'd suggest the job stacking is alot more to do with tribalism, than concerns for other people's budgets!!

Pip

MFS: *CFSRES INC008 28/04/09 04:21,RESPOND Tree Down,ADELAIDE-LOBETHAL RD,BASKET RANGE MAP 123 A 15,2 KM ADELIADE SIDE OF BASKET RANGE TRANS,PORT SA ON SCENE REQUEST ASSIST RE TREE,ACCROSS RD PH 0401124056 P1,CAM020

Noteworthy its a Priority 1 response.

If the pager messages re this job were a true reflection of the times, it took the unit around 25 minutes to get mobile, and then it would be 15 minute drive to get to the job.  The closest CFS station is 2 km away.  The other CFS station, that the SES have to drive past to get to this job, is about 7 km away.

And of course this is a Priority 1 response, considering the huuuge volume of traffic that use the road at that time of the morning.     (Read "nil traffic")

I just don't get this response stuff.....

Pip

[chook]

No Pip, this makes no sense - Why P1? Why that unit?
Don't get me wrong, I don't understand How or Why the SES works the way it does in SA.
Same job here would trigger the local council/hwys department.
However the easy fix is more units not giving CFS more work.
cheers

[Alex]

Im a firm believer of closest most appropriate...

But i do feel the need to comment on this;

TRANS,PORT SA ON SCENE

Surely they are providing traffic control of some type, and perhaps its not as much of a priority as P1 tends to imply?

[Mike]

P1 to a tree over road has always bewildered me to a certain extent.
No matter how fast I rush to that job, if a car is on the road in front of me it (if its going to hit the tree) will....

Unfortunately metro SES units tend to be the blight of the public SES perception (and yes some country units to)... and the paged responses dont help this at all.... The vollie interview i heard on the radio this morning said it all.....