New Fatigue Management Regulations for drivers

[Bagyassfirey]

so when ur going away on a strike team is ur "Base" still ur station. or does it become the staging area? hence the 100km rule comes in? think its something CFS need to look deeply in to other wise the Sh*t may hit the fan big time

[chook]

Many studies have been conducted in to fatigue & its management. The British army did some really ground breaking stuff early on that found after 72 hrs you are stuffed.
Except for mining, industry worked out long ago that 8 is far better than 12 hour shifts. We conducted an informal study that concluded that productivity, quality were less & mistakes & accidents increased in the last 4 hours of a twelve hour shift. Plus you have to throw an extra break in as well, they just aren't worth the effort.
How many times have you deployed & spent several hours just sitting around?
When I first joined SES I was surprised how poorly fatigue is managed, even travelling to courses etc. Land search teams, storm teams etc were kept hanging around far longer than they should have been. Newcastle saw a real changed to that 8 hour shifts, very little hurray up & wait. And every task I help manage after that was the same - don't need em now - send them home!
As far as travel my company has a rule that if you have to driver for more than 3.5 hrs consider (and its only consider) stopping over night on the way or better choose another method of travel. We did manage to get an exemption for people going from Berri to Leeton (arguing that we were country drivers & used to the distances involved). However for other travel we fly!
Mac13 the 100 km thing will be the least of your problems!
Finally 8 hour shifts are easy to manage, just takes a bit more forethought.
And fatigue management training is vital for those who manage people & those under them. I have got some excellent info on how to manage fatigue, there is heaps of info out there.
cheers

[Zippy]

Three Shifts!!! Three Shiftsss!!! Numbers...the IMT arent GOD!!! 

I don't quite understand? Are you suggesting that they will be unable to source people for three shifts? By creating an extra shift, you then open up possibilities for people to take half a day off work to attend, or people who have commitments in the latter half of the day to attend. As it stands, you take off a whole day, or a whole night, which then can write off your following day. I'm not suggesting that three shifts is the way forward, nor would it work in practice, but it certainly is food for thought.

no, i just commonly get told, there isnt the IMT capacity to plan (especially in logistics/catering) to have a third shift in 24 hours.

Way i see it. the Inital responding "Very hard working" appliances and strike teams, need to be home within 6 hours. The next shift which more than likely will work into the night, may need to stick around for up to 12 hours, so IMT can establish a plan, of weather or not its a campaign fire or not.  Between the hours of 9pm and 9am...Minimal Resources on the fire ground UNLESS weather conditions are not in your favour OR the following day is gonna be a filtered.  When i say minimal resources, You could create two sub-shifts over night, make it a 1am Change over.   9pm-1am SHIFT 2A sleeps   1am-5AM SHIFT 2B Sleeps.   (this is just my mind ticking over with ideas..no where else to throw them.)

[Bagyassfirey]

no, i just commonly get told, there isnt the IMT capacity to plan (especially in logistics/catering) to have a third shift in 24 hours.


Yup KI last year was an example with Warooka going at the same time IMT was stretched so thin hence the help from QLD

[Zippy]

More people simply need to get trained in IMT related stuff.  And staging area managers do need to be switched on...and not forget/make assumptions about a group of 10 appliances sitting all by themselves (that was us on KI...we were the Emergency strike team apparently...umm? no..we've just arrived awaiting deployment...8 Hours later the Test Cricket Match ended).

[Bagyassfirey]

i think ur sooo right let more people do more IMT training things may run smoother...but i think some people may get a bit thingy bout new people in IMT. i dunno but its something im pretty keen to get involved in

[Zippy]

i think ur sooo right let more people do more IMT training things may run smoother...but i think some people may get a bit thingy bout new people in IMT. i dunno but its something im pretty keen to get involved in

mmm its a requirement to be over 45 to be in IMT in some groups...

[rescue5271]

There are lots of members who are trained in IMT but never get a chance to do some of the IMT stuff..Now some years ago CFA also went through all of this but they got away with it I cant remember how but they did and there was no need for log books as VICROADS where happy with the appliance log book as long as each driver wrote in it and so on....

[Baxter]

When I first read the topic it was focused on the driving aspect for drivers but after seeing the debate change a bit I can now see it can cover more than just the driving. The way that the services do business need to really take into consideration the aspect of fatigue.

I think driving from point a to point b and back again need to look at. Some of the technology that is available to us is not being used. I know some meetings do require a face to face but try a teleconference once in a while. I remember doing one night after work a 400 km round trip of driving for a meeting on top of the normal 150 km that I do for work that day. I think by the end of the meeting I just wanted to get out the room and go to bed (I think I provided nonething to the meeting in the last 3/4 hr) instead  I spend a couple of hours by the side of road sleeping before making it home to get ready for work in the next 3 - 4 hours. Unfortunately for both trainings and meetings this is the norm rather than the exception.

The other matter being IMT training or having more people to pull in I don't have a problem with but they need to work out ways of using these people. If I remember correctly they were little scrounging for IMT trained people for KI or anyone who had completed an AIIMS course could be on it. They should do more training and more practice with those trained or on the verge of being trained to be in such a role like what I think occurs in  Region 2 on a regular basis

Then again this is my opinion of someone way out there in thinking and living

[Gilly]

For Information,

CFS is not exempt from any part of the new regs, including the use of log books.

[6739264]

For Information,

CFS is not exempt from any part of the new regs, including the use of log books.

Not even with the exemptions explicitly specified within the Regulations?

[bittenyakka]

I like the posts about 8 hour shifts. But would like to know does the 8 hours start when you leave your station or arrive at staging or leave staging?

and Yes shorter shifts will get more people available if i know that i am going away from 1600-1200 i can sleep when i get home then g to work/uni etc. but if i don;t know it might be a 12 hour mabey who knows. Then i can't really go.

[jaff]

"I have a dream...... 8 hour shifts, for all firefighters on the fireground" from a IMT point of view this request is a mongrel to manage.

[chook]

Why Jaff? except for the lack of IMT personnel, 8 hr shifts shouldnt be that hard. Maybe Safecom should start recruiting some logistics specialist.
Gilly the only way CFS is not exempt is its not an emergency service or the transitional arrangements have been withdrawn 4 years early.
By the way they are Work diaries & are issued to the individuals, just like logbooks were (I'm talking about the official logbook that all long distance drivers carried - including myself). So Gilly not sure of your info, but ESO's are exempt - period.
There is one way to find out for sure - Safecom should run a test case in  the Supreme court, then the decision would be set in case law no further argument!
Where ESO's can be prosecuted for fatigue management problems is under the OHS Act, years ago ESO's should have fought for exemptions from section 19,20,21 of that act.
It could be argued that every emergency response, is a breach of that act (in simple terms "a safe place"). So regardless of which act applies, fatigue still must be managed - even if that means having extra people in IMT's to manage it
And tomorrow is D Day
cheers

[jaff]

Chook you live in a beautiful world, sadly reality is much harder to manage. 

[chook]

No mate my beautiful world would have no rules at all & I would be redundant
Yeah I know how hard it is to get some to change & I have seen how precious some involved in IMT's are.
But it's just good business practice to manage your most important asset as best as possible! (for those that don't what that is it's your people!)
Management of volunteer ESO's scratch their collective heads wondering why they can't attract & retain members - yet this is one of the reasons.
Having peoples guts flogged out over an extended period, or just as bad having people sitting on their arses in a staging area just because nobody has matched tasks to resources required is just plain stupid!
Thats why the holistic approach to all incident management must be adopted, just because it's one agencies legislative role & just because they may not have enough managers, planners etc does not mean the troups on the front line should suffer. Afterall there are people in other regions, services that could handle the task of planning, logistics etc. This does not just apply to CFS either or just in SA.
Its about time that the umbrella organisations that are supposed to manage the ESO's fix this problem once and for all! And since fatigue management legislation was flagged in 2007 - by now those same organisations should have released a policy and guidance materials & this thread would never have been started because everyone would already know the answers
Anyway I guess thats enough from chairman chook

[Gilly]

Chook,

I was referring to your reference that eso's have a blanket exemption. this is not the case. We have exemptions as laid out in the regs, but are still required to comply with elements of the regs, particularly in return journeys. this is where cfs will be mainly affected, having to have drivers shuttled and the requirement for log books used in return journeys. Who provides them, who maintains them, where are they obtained, etc etc.

[SA Firey]

Chook,

I was referring to your reference that eso's have a blanket exemption. this is not the case. We have exemptions as laid out in the regs, but are still required to comply with elements of the regs, particularly in return journeys. this is where cfs will be mainly affected, having to have drivers shuttled and the requirement for log books used in return journeys. Who provides them, who maintains them, where are they obtained, etc etc.

National Driver Work Diary is available from all Services SA offices and local Police Stations, each driver maintains their own, and cost is $18 each.

[chook]

Yep fair call Gilly - still would not go down that path unless directed in writting refer to cock on block in previous post - being directed by a higher authority opens a Pandora's box so let them carry the can!
I remember a wise comment when I was in the army - if pulled up by the state gendarmes don't ever produce your civilian licence, otherwise you are gone!
If working for the state why suffer for their poor management.
cheers

[JC]

So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.

BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. 

[SA Firey]

So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.

BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. 

That's the thing its not over 12 tonne so they would'nt care less.

[Zippy]

Aha, how about 14's

[bajdas]

Aha, how about 14's

Personally, who cares what lethal weapon you are driving or dangerous equipment you are operating. You fall asleep you will be injured & others could die.

[bajdas]

So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.

BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. 

Many years ago, I have been delivered home after a long night on storm damage.

This was with a Unit that sent the active crew home when the vehicle arrived back at LHQ & a few fresh people checked/stowed (incl people on auxiliary or ops/comms membership) the vehicle equipment so it was ready to go on the next job if called.

A driver from the auxiliary crew used a 4wd vehicle or private vehicle (mileage was paid by Unit) did a round trip dropping everyone home. Private vehicles were kept at LHQ under lock & key until the next day for collection.

Otherwise beds in LHQ or stretchers in the shed were laid out so you slept before leaving.

Mr K Lane was a person ahead of his time. He was my Unit Controller at that time.

[JC]

It would be a very interesting situation for cfs if they followed the regs by brining you back to station from the fireground, then let you drive your private car home. If you had an accident and injured / killed yourself or others it would open a huge can of worms.

**cough, cough, did someone say lawsuit.

Now, there would need to be some responsibility on an individual in this situation if they were feeling fatigued to arrange transport home but i believe the onus is on cfs to get there firefighters home if they are believed to be fatigued.