Author Topic: 3rd alarm Hazmat, Salisbury 15/09/08 (Read 41551 times)

tft · « **Reply #25 on:** September 16, 2008, 09:44:32 PM »

The reason Belair went was they are closer(to town). If you were talking about pumpers only, then most of the brigades would never do COQ.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #26 on:** September 16, 2008, 11:17:51 PM »

well if it is the closest truck what about Norton summit? ( i had to through that in

)

rescue5271 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 17, 2008, 07:21:47 AM »

Yep Norton would be a hell of alot closer and they have done it before....

tft · « **Reply #28 on:** September 17, 2008, 08:14:08 AM »

What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:08:56 PM »

Quote from: tft on September 17, 2008, 08:14:08 AM

What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.

Belair was COQ'd to 22 Glynde though, so bittenyakka's point about Norton summit being closer still holds true...

Back to the original topic though - is there any more news on the incident itself? I'm assuming it's all been cleaned up now?

safireservice · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2008, 06:45:28 PM »

Quote from: CFS_Firey on September 17, 2008, 03:08:56 PM

Quote from: tft on September 17, 2008, 08:14:08 AM
What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.

Belair was COQ'd to 22 Glynde though, so bittenyakka's point about Norton summit being closer still holds true...

Back to the original topic though - is there any more news on the incident itself? I'm assuming it's all been cleaned up now?

Heard on the news that te place may not be operational for at least a month.

6739264 · « **Reply #31 on:** September 17, 2008, 08:03:04 PM »

3,2,1, lets all second guess comms... hooray

Darren · « **Reply #32 on:** September 17, 2008, 08:18:27 PM »

Everything was done for a reason with much consultation......

Zippy · « **Reply #33 on:** September 17, 2008, 09:04:17 PM »

yeah C shift is mostly more on the ball than A & B...but nothing beats D shift

Firey9119 · « **Reply #34 on:** September 17, 2008, 09:05:29 PM »

Quote from: 6739264 on September 17, 2008, 08:03:04 PM

3,2,1, lets all second guess comms... hooray

here here - was any here in comms when the calls were made?? was anyone here involved in making the calls?

?

they why the hell do we all (myself included at times) pick it to bits!!!

dont get me wrong they dont always get it right

my 2 cents worth , a) the job got done
b) we (cfs) got a run

now if comms did not respond cfs then i think we would have something to say but i think they got it right this time. btw its mfs area so they call the shoots not us!!

bittenyakka · « **Reply #35 on:** September 17, 2008, 10:55:36 PM »

Hey i think we are perfectly with in our rights to pick comms to bits as it is always healthy to ask questions.

Now IF there is an obvious reason for the correct moments and comms has a problem with us doing this then come out and say who/ why / when /how? it's called being transparent.

I think this is also a good time to ask these questions as although it isn't official yet the new thing is "the closest most appropriate resource" so when this comes in what will happen?

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't some strange things going on if you send Happy Valley to 44 and Belair to 22 when Norton Summit is closer to 22.
It seems to be a toss of a coin to see who fills COQ today?

I know for some people it is as simple as " the pager goes we go" but if we don;t question what happened? why did it happen? could it be done better? ect nothing will ever improve. And this forum is a good place to do that.

Cameron Yelland · « **Reply #36 on:** September 18, 2008, 05:42:17 AM »

and as it has already been said.......COQ was arranged with close consultation with Region 1 HQ. Have a problem? Speak to them.

Have a problem with a response for your own brigade? Fill in the appropriate forms and it will be investigated.

Sorry i shouldnt answer these so early in the morning

rescue5271 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 18, 2008, 07:13:18 AM »

At the end of the day the job got done and crews did a great job,both MFS and CFS should be comended i the way that they worked and the Salisbury brigade needs a PAT on the back for a job well done but also for being able to respond to the calls that came in after this one...

Katrina · « **Reply #38 on:** September 18, 2008, 07:46:28 AM »

Hey I'm Comms, I don't have a problem with a discussion about how a job was handled - it is just the way the discussion comes about and how things are stated that might get my back up. If someone comes into the Comms room after a job going "your an idiot, why did you do that" my first reaction would be to bite back (actually that is after I got past my first thought which would be to hit them into next week) but if they come in and ask questions about the job in a nice way then that is okay. There can be an awful lot going on in that room that you might not even be aware of out on the ground, not answering a call from a truck on the first call and then getting yelled at because of that (now then I really wanted to hit the person involved) actually happened because I had to speak to Adelaide fire on the other radio (about something else happening at the same time) as well as speaking to SAAS on the phone on the phone giving them directions and speaking to the local police officer who had just turned up. And I had a member on the truck with his knickers in a knot because i didn't answer on the first call. That's when I have a problem!!!!!!! Discussion is healthy, lots of things are learnt from it, I know I certainly learn things during and after every large incident.

6739264 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 18, 2008, 08:13:29 AM »

Quote from: bittenyakka on September 17, 2008, 10:55:36 PM

Hey i think we are perfectly with in our rights to pick comms to bits as it is always healthy to ask questions.

Now IF there is an obvious reason for the correct moments and comms has a problem with us doing this then come out and say who/ why / when /how? it's called being transparent.

I think this is also a good time to ask these questions as although it isn't official yet the new thing is "the closest most appropriate resource" so when this comes in what will happen?

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't some strange things going on if you send Happy Valley to 44 and Belair to 22 when Norton Summit is closer to 22.
It seems to be a toss of a coin to see who fills COQ today?

I know for some people it is as simple as " the pager goes we go" but if we don;t question what happened? why did it happen? could it be done better? ect nothing will ever improve. And this forum is a good place to do that.

Comms make decisions on the fly and in consultation with the right people. There is no need for comms to be 'held accountable' by a bunch of armchair dispatchers who fly into a frenzied circlejerk of impotent rage whenever they see something that didn't go according to the plan and procedures that they have in their mind.

We are talking about CoQ for gods sake, nothing more. I can understand questioning a response for something like an RCR if something really silly occurred, but by god, this is merely trucks getting shifted around a city. Most of East Torrens AND Mt. Lofty is closer to Glynde than Belair is, most of Mt. Lofty is closer to Glen osmond than Happy Valley is. In fact, Mt. Barker could probably give Happy Valley a run for their money in terms of getting to Glen Osmond in a timely fashion. At the end of the day who cares? What comms did was done for a reason.

If you want to talk about closest, most appropriate resources, then you would only ever have Burnside, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt. Barker and Morphett Vale doing CoQ because they're the only brigades that are close to the CBD, have the equipment and a majority of competent members to provide a semi-professional service to the CBD.

On the other hand, maybe its all a huge conspiracy against certain brigades and because some of the comms staff are members of certain CFS brigades and groups, then that is why they are given preference. Yep, thats the reason behind it all! Quick! To the whingemobile!

mattb · « **Reply #40 on:** September 18, 2008, 03:33:27 PM »

There is an SOP on Change of Quarters, I guess a fair few of those brigades listed were already involved in the actual job so that does cause some problems. Still the job was done and everything was covered so all is good.

Change of Quarters
• The procedures to respond CFS appliances to MFS stations are as follows:
o Adelaide Fire will advise the CFS DSC, who will advise the appropriate Regional Coordinator that assistance may be/is required.

o When requesting CFS appliances to change quarters to an MFS station Adelaide Fire will provide the CFS DSC (who will advise the CFS Regional Coordinator) with the following information:
MFS Station(s) require assistance
Number of CFS appliances required at each station
MFS talk group/radio frequency for each appliance
Possible duration of change of quarters
o The MFS will provide regular Sitreps to the CFS DSC/RCord.
o Predetermined CFS appliances to cover MFS stations are:

MFS Stations CFS Brigades
Glynde - Athelstone
Wakefield Street - Burnside / Belair
Glen Osmond - Stirling
St. Mary - Eden Hills
O’Halloran Hill - Happy Valley
Christie Downs - Morphett Vale

MFS Stations CFS Brigades
Gawler - Dalkeith
Elizabeth - Dalkeith
Salisbury - Salisbury
Oakden - Tea Tree Gully
Golden Grove - Tea Tree Gully
Prospect - Burnside

mattb · « **Reply #41 on:** September 18, 2008, 03:35:55 PM »

Quote

If you want to talk about closest, most appropriate resources, then you would only ever have Burnside, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt. Barker and Morphett Vale doing CoQ because they're the only brigades that are close to the CBD, have the equipment and a majority of competent members to provide a semi-professional service to the CBD.

Mt Barker closer to the city

Maybe a bit of a typo or has Barker moved recently.

TillerMan · « **Reply #42 on:** September 18, 2008, 05:31:28 PM »

A. Don't forget that the pre determined stations don't take into account the actual job that has caused the COQ.

B. I beleive comms can only have 2 CFS trucks off their own back until they have to consult the region....... and if i was region i would go mmm you already have east and north trucks so you can have some south trucks.

Zippy · « **Reply #43 on:** September 18, 2008, 05:57:37 PM »

So what is the case if the following happens:

A. Some of the stations are able to crew an appliance to do a COQ for a set period of time (typically the shortest amount of time that a single firefighter is available)...
B. some of the CFS brigades are unable to provide a crewed appliance.

Would it be comfortable to say that brigades like:

North: Virginia, One Tree Hill, Roseworthy,
East/West: Norton Summit, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker, Hahndorf,
South: Upper Sturt, Blackwood, Clarendon, Seaford, Aldgina Beach

Could provide COQ to MFS area if the 1st Round of CFS brigades have been "used up"? Considering that the appliance has a full crew of BA...and preferably RCR/Hazmat operators that could be taken onto the COQ-producing incident?

uniden · « **Reply #44 on:** September 18, 2008, 06:02:52 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on September 18, 2008, 05:57:37 PM

So what is the case if the following happens:

A. Some of the stations are able to crew an appliance to do a COQ for a set period of time (typically the shortest amount of time that a single firefighter is available)...
B. some of the CFS brigades are unable to provide a crewed appliance.

Would it be comfortable to say that brigades like:

North: Virginia, One Tree Hill, Roseworthy,
East/West: Norton Summit, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker, Hahndorf,
South: Upper Sturt, Blackwood, Clarendon, Seaford, Aldgina Beach

Could provide COQ to MFS area if the 1st Round of CFS brigades have been "used up"? Considering that the appliance has a full crew of BA...and preferably RCR/Hazmat operators that could be taken onto the COQ-producing incident?

Absolutely, it happenned back in the late 80`s when they had the ship fire that lasted for 2 weeks. CFS brigades were rotated and crews were rotated through various stations.

Zippy · « **Reply #45 on:** September 18, 2008, 07:14:12 PM »

yeah, its a grand story i hear lots hehe, woulda been an interesting time.

The question is, are we the CFS, prepared for a similar occurance to that of the 80's Ship fire.

Because really...it doesnt take much to turn multiple CFS brigades into the First responding appliances in Metropolitan area's.

My Judgement: We're under-prepared by a long shot.

6739264 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 18, 2008, 07:50:15 PM »

Quote from: mattb on September 18, 2008, 03:35:55 PM

Mt Barker closer to the city Maybe a bit of a typo or has Barker moved recently.

No typo, 'Closest and most appropriate". They are close and appropriate considering they have a pumper, have an RCR capability, deal with Urban incidents on a regular basis and have a high quality of members.

I was having a slight stir as well, but I'd rather have Mt. Barker CoQ for SAMFS than most of the other brigades between the CBD and Mt. Barker.

So here is a question, is there any provision within the current CoQ arrangements to ensure RCR/Hazmat coverage when CoQ is undertaken? I understand that most of the time there is no need for it, but what happens at large incidents with most SAMFS GP Pumps and Pump/Rescues at work, the Heavy Rescue staging and the BA/Hazmat bus in a support function? If there is a large scale requirement for CFS to CoQ is anyone tracking the Hazmat and Rescue resources?

rescue5271 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 18, 2008, 09:05:22 PM »

IF the brown stuff does hit the fan MFS can do a recall of staff that are off duty,they could / would mann the spare appliances and I am sure if they looked they would find the RCR/Hazmat gear that they need. On the other hand CFS members who have RCR/Hazmat could mann MFS spare appliances.....

SA is not the only state to have Volunteers mann perm stations for long periods over the years ,there have been many fire's and hazmat jobs in victoria where CFA staff and volunteers have maned the MFB stations for very long periods...One thing that we dont do alot of here in this state is COQ with in our own CFS service .....

bittenyakka · « **Reply #48 on:** September 18, 2008, 10:44:13 PM »

Well i aimed to promote discussion and certainly achieved that.

JamesGar · « **Reply #49 on:** September 18, 2008, 10:52:51 PM »

Some interesting internation concepts for Mutual Aid...

The UK utilises a process of the responding Mutual Aid resource will commit to the incident which caused the mutual aid request, releasing the requesting service back to their own area of cover.

Benefits of this process is that the requesting service can then provide coverage to the area that they know. For ambulance services this mean local knowledge of hospitals, nursing home and staff. A local service liaison remains in support of the mutual support service.

For the fire service I see a similar advantage were the requesting service is returned to cover it's area with knowledge of local procedures, FIP's, plans, etc.

This system would not work for resource heavy incidents like the hazmat at Salisbury on Monday, but some other incident come to mind where it could work.

Mitcham Shopping Centre fire, Belair and Burnside committed to the incident, with (from memory) Eden Hills at St Mary's, Happy Valley at the Hill, Morphett Vale at Christies and TTG at Gylnde (please don't lynch me if I'm wrong). It may have been better for Happy Valley, Eden, Morphett Vale and TTG or closer multiple appliance CFS brigades (Stirling, Aldgate, Blackwood, Upper Sturt...) to respond to the incident to release more MFS crews back to there areas.

Similarly the Abattoirs Fire at Port Wakefield, protracted incident where a significant number of CFS brigade were involved for a very long time. Perhap utilising a couple of MFS appliances or crews to release local appliance back to their response area would make some sense.

Just my thoughts, I think there is certainly some benefits to flipping the mutual aid processes. Could be a little politically sensitive and hard on the 'ownership' of incident from local crews, but it is tried and tested in other services.

Comments?

Author Topic: 3rd alarm Hazmat, Salisbury 15/09/08 (Read 41551 times)

rescue5271

Darren

rescue5271

uniden

rescue5271