CFS responding with MFS in MFS area

[Zippy]

If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist?   It may make a difference.

[backburn]

There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained

Are you sure, doesn't make much sense, due to the limited numbers of staff they are allowed to recruit I thought this would be part of the minimum skills to keep your spot.

I know the station support staff aren't, but they don't fight fires either.

Yeah I have worked with a station that as had members in there for over 3 years and they still have not done BA or RCR

[bittenyakka]

zippy

this is about responding into MFS area. But in your turf what you suggest is a better idea.

[Zippy]

I am actually thinking about the possiblity that if you have 4 crew...1 BA operator...And the next MFS or CFS backup is 5-10mins behind you.  That it may do good just sending that crew forward to that job, to do what ever they can do.  Time Critical Incidents Especially.

[pumprescue]

There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained

Are you sure, doesn't make much sense, due to the limited numbers of staff they are allowed to recruit I thought this would be part of the minimum skills to keep your spot.

I know the station support staff aren't, but they don't fight fires either.

Yeah I have worked with a station that as had members in there for over 3 years and they still have not done BA or RCR

Fair enough, I find it very hard to believe that you would still be a member of the MFS after 3 years and not doing BA, the only people I know that aren't are operational support staff, but they don't respond to jobs.

[pumprescue]

I am actually thinking about the possiblity that if you have 4 crew...1 BA operator...And the next MFS or CFS backup is 5-10mins behind you.  That it may do good just sending that crew forward to that job, to do what ever they can do.  Time Critical Incidents Especially.

Again,we are talking MFS area only, they don't include you as part of the response, your a bonus, if you don't respond it doesn't actually mean a great deal, as they are still sending their minimum response if you turn out or not. You will always notice that most times for a 1st alarm domestic you will have 2 MFS pumps and 1 CFS. Same with an RCR, eg : if the crash is in MFS area that the green book says should be Glynde and Athelstone, 204 or 329 will always be added as CFS don't count, they are to unreliable.
So therefor if you respond, all well and good, but do it as they ask, if you don't ring them and default, but it won't matter unless they are extremely short of trucks, but in that case you will most likely be sent COQ anyway.

[6739264]

If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist?   It may make a difference.

The thing is, at a structure fire I may need 2-3 more BA crews - Not more bodies to stand around and 'assist'. Having more people, that I can't use, is a pain in the neck and is about as far from 'assisting' as possible.

I'd rather have 8-10 trained people at a job than 50 untrained people 'assisting' and getting their weekly jollies by seeing flames.

At the end of the day, if you can't bring trained crew to a job and the trained crew are needed, don't bother turning out, you're only cluttering up the fireground - especially in urban areas.

[OMGWTF]

how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is

Sorry, but actually it does matter whos area it is. If the brigade is responding  into an MFS area, the minimum is 2 BA operators. no question about it, if you cant get 2 ba operators the EMA agreement says DEFAULT! Same goes for road crash i believe (but not 100% sure).

Also put it this way, how would you feel in this FICTIONAL scenario:

You are OIC on first arriving CFS truck at a house fire confined to 1 bedroom.
You have 1 BA team on your truck, and you know that the next CFS appliance is 2 minutes down the road with 2 BA operators on board. And an mfs appliance is on its way to your station for COQ

Whilst your first BA crew is making entry, the job begins to escalate, you call for a second alarm.

The second CFS appliance shows up and their BA team also begins an aggressive interior attack.

2 minutes later the COQ MFS truck(which you assume have a minimum of 2 ba operators, as thats what your EMA agreement says) rock up. <the issue is between them they have exactly ZERO Ba operators.>

2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.

Now what do you do? you have 2 BA teams attempting an aggressive interior attack, with no rescue personnel in case the poop hits the fan inside.

Very nice rant mate.

As far as i am aware, from "Master of Disaster's" first post, we are talking about a response to an incident, not a COQ. Or have you lost me? I have never heard anything about a CFS pump going to a grassie in MFS area requiring BA operators, although im sure theyd be nice.

But judging by your example anyway, im presuming your talking about COQs.

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU!?!

THIS IS THE POTENTIAL SITUATION THAT YOU ARE SETTING UP YOUR NEIGHBORING MFS CREWS UP FOR BY NOT FOLLOWING EMA RESPONSE PLANS!

The MFS would not do this to us, so why would we do it to them?

HAH, jog on..

[Pixie]

My rant is completely hypothetical, although, if you swap the word MFS for CFS and vice versa, it become quite realistic.

The point i am trying to make is that we would all crack the shits big time if an MFS truck rocked up to a going job in our area with a crew that had the gear but were not trained to use it. Yet members of our service seem to think it is just dandy for us to do it to them.

I VOTE "NO BA, NO RIDE THE TRUCK." Don't meet the fitness requirements? should you really be on the fire ground?

It may seem to many like a heavy handed approach, but if all members of your crew are up to date in all of their training, it should make the CFS a much safer and more professional service.

Jut my opinion!

[RescueHazmat]

If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist?   It may make a difference.

If your responding with MFS, into MFS area and you default, don't respond another brigade. - Advise Ad/Fire you are defaulting, and leave it up to them.

[SA Firey]

If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....I would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist?   It may make a difference.

If your responding with MFS, into MFS area and you default, don't respond another brigade. - Advise Ad/Fire you are defaulting, and leave it up to them.

Correct, MFS area you cant respond another CFS brigade into it, they will send their own resources.

[Zippy]

but it would be silly to respond St Marys to Christies Beach, when Happy Valley is available...to respond with Morphett Vale and Seaford.

Thinking 1st Alarm, Multiple calls, sorta job here.

[RescueHazmat]

Too bad.. Its up to MFS..

[SA Firey]

but it would be silly to respond St Marys to Christies Beach, when Happy Valley is available...to respond with Morphett Vale and Seaford.

Thinking 1st Alarm, Multiple calls, sorta job here.

Hahahaha Zippy...they did it a few years ago $1 million dollar school fire, and they sent everything from HQ.....as they were on the road already

[OMGWTF]

My rant is completely hypothetical, although, if you swap the word MFS for CFS and vice versa, it become quite realistic.

The point i am trying to make is that we would all crack the filtered big time if an MFS truck rocked up to a going job in our area with a crew that had the gear but were not trained to use it. Yet members of our service seem to think it is just dandy for us to do it to them.

I VOTE "NO BA, NO RIDE THE TRUCK." Don't meet the fitness requirements? should you really be on the fire ground?

It may seem to many like a heavy handed approach, but if all members of your crew are up to date in all of their training, it should make the CFS a much safer and more professional service.

Jut my opinion!

Pix, not sure why you quoted my original post then.... if you had read it.

how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is

appropriate crew for an incident.... Min 2 BA operators for structure/VF/rubbish, or 3 RCR Operators [VA], etc etc... [honestly, i didnt think i had to spell it out...]

doesnt matter whos area it is in..... WE SHOULD BE RESPONDING WITH THE APPROPRIATE CREW REGARDLESS OF WHO'S GAZZETTED AREA IT IS [yep i can shout too]

[CFS_Firey]

So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).

[SA Firey]

So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).

YES

[OMGWTF]

So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).

YES

Is this in writing anywhere? Id be keen to have a read.

[Zippy]

How about: 2 BA operators on a 2WD or 4WD pumper at any call?   Wouldnt ya hate to be 15mins from the station at a animal rescue, get a page for a Commercial fire...and all ya got is non-BA crew. And to add to that, only a single driver...already driving that appliance. 

The Last resort would have to be BA operators and Private cars.

[SA Firey]

So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).

YES

Is this in writing anywhere? Id be keen to have a read.

COSO's SOP 7.1

Where CFS appliances are responding into SAMFS area, the crew shall consist a minimum of four firefighters, one of whom must be officer in Charge.This crew is to have breathing apparatus accreditation and other relevant competencies. The minimum appliance is a Type 24.
While it does'nt relate to specific incident types state the CFS crew shall be BA operators.

[OMGWTF]

Intriguing, never noticed that before.....

[mattb]

So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).

We always do, if we don't have a minimum of 2 BA then we ring Adelaide Fire and advise them, the couple of times it's been an issue they have said just go anyway.

[CFS_Firey]

It's a little ambiguous as to how many crew are required to be qualified.  If you take it as it sounds, then all 4 crew need to be BA, Rescue and Hazmat (If their brigade does both).
Interesting.

[pumprescue]

I know some groups have negotiated having minimum of 2 BA due to CFS persisting on putting a cap on BA operators, often they have people willing to train in BA but can't get on a course.

[24pumper]

I know some groups have negotiated having minimum of 2 BA due to CFS persisting on putting a cap on BA operators, often they have people willing to train in BA but can't get on a course.

"negotiated"

I'm not sure if a local negotiation can override the SOP's COSO's?