Voice Recorders

[Jimmy_91]

Well our group is contemplating the purchase of voice recorders for the command vehicles.

What I am wondering is if any other brigade/group has bought voice recorders? If so:-

• What brand?
• Total Recording Time?
• Battery's or Inbuilt Power?
• Where did you buy it from?
• And the Price?

Thanks in advance 

[bajdas]

Some general comments & observations.

Depends on 'what the voice recorders are being used for'...

I have seen them used 'hanging around peoples necks' to record conversations, decisions made and instructions given. Not sure the recording quality when outside (eg wind noise, engines, background noise, etc).

They have been used unsuccessfully to record GRN radio traffic. The device was placed near a radio speaker and I was wearing a GRN microphone headset. So the device only recorded the radio traffic being received via the speaker, it did not pickup my voice when I broadcast.

I would hope that a date/time stamp of some sort is done on the recording, without delaying the next recording. This is so that if you review the tape in six months time, you have an idea of the time decisions were made.

Personally, I think it is a useful tool for 'after incident' debriefs and analysis. But pen, paper & carbon paper are a more reliable tool that gives a faster recall if you need to review decisions made at the incident. Especially during handover to the next shift crew.

[Zippy]

I have recently been testing a piece of software which records Scanner's and Online Feeds on Voice Demand, works great and time stamps each piece of talk.

All it requires is a computer with a scanner attached, or simply a computer accessing a Online scanner feed, playing it through the computers sound card...the software is on standby till a GRN channel is active.

Ill be happy to share some bits and pieces Off-forum.

[Jimmy_91]

Depends on 'what the voice recorders are being used for'...

I have seen them used 'hanging around peoples necks' to record conversations, decisions made and instructions given.

Yes, the thought of these is to record conversations, decisions made and instructions given, in person & on the GRN. 

[Evac]

I have used the IRiver T10 / T20 (Its an outdoors MP3 player and voice recorder) operationally and the recording quality is pretty good. The lowest recording setting gave about 36 hours, this level was more than enough to listen back to and take further notes or give to someone to type out the conversations you had. If only half the conversation was recorded eg phone call, my half of the conversation is enough to jog my memory now on what it was about. Just don't forget to say the time occassionally through the recording.

[rescue5271]

I would say before you buy look into what CFS require you to record how long will you store that information and where will it be kept...I think you will find that you will need to keep all tapes for 7 years if not longer,most of all you will need to inform people that you are recording that information due to the privacy acted.... Its not as easy as going out and buying the gear you need to make sure what you are doing is legal and that it will stand up in a court of law......

[6739264]

Before I have any conversations in future, I am going to order that you get patted down in case you're wearing a wire...

Bill, as far as legalities go, as long as both parties know that the conversation is being recorded and is happy with it, I don't see any issue. As far as having to keep records for years, CFS has to legally do that (I believe) for their GRN tapes and the like, yet if I record something privately I don't think I need to keep it for any set amount of time although it may be in my best interest not to quickly dispose of it.

Three cheers for buck passing and coronials.

[Katrina]

You beat me to it, you're right as long as all parties know it is okay - but as long as all parties agree to being recorded to I think is the other key part of this (ever contacted banks/telstra etc on the phone, you have to agree to the call being monitored and recorded or let them know that you don't want this to happen) so could become an issue there with someone there not wanting things recorded and making sure that everyone knows they are being recorded

[Firefrog]

I don't think that is entirely true, an incident manager for example would be well within their rights to record themselves while driving in a command car. This recording would incidentally record people on the other end of radio comms and people coming to the window of the car. As long as the recording is only used for the intended purpose of jogging the memory and preparing notes etc. I don't see a problem.

A lawyer or the courts would determine if a recording is admissible in court not us on a web forum.

Just My opinion..

[mengcfs]

We successfully use a scanner with a recording program on the computer. Records both sides of a conversation, GRN, UHF or VHF. This is intended for radio traffic only tho. Has a date and time stamp as well.

[Benji]

What program??

[Evac]

Firefrog is right. My intention of using a recording device was purely to jog my memory should i need to. In the Group i was in we burnt 2 copies to CD, i kept one personnaly and the other was kept by the GO. I still had notes taken by a scribe as there is information you will always need to refer back to and the recording just adds to these notes. I would only tell people i was recording if i was in a lengthy discussion with someone.

After this topic was raised again, i listened back to a job i did 18 months ago and i can remember evry phone call and every decision i made and my reasons for it. I could not recomend it enough to any one that has to make decisions and has some responsability at any incident.

[Darius]

What program??

maybe "scanner recorder" as that's a popular one.  I don't believe recording from a scanner is reliable enough so am using VRS (http://www.nch.com.au/vrs/) connected to the GRN radios at the group base to record our traffic.  I would prefer something that runs on linux rather than windows but it's good enough for now.

re personal voice recorders, many groups (and some regional staff) have them, as others have said they are invaluable for jogging your memory about info given/received, decisions made and mobile phone conversations (which are otherwise usually completely unlogged).  Can't recommend a specific model though sorry.

[mengcfs]

What program??

Scanner recorder (scanrec). It's free and easy to use. Works for us anyway.

[Red Message]

This should be a little bit interesting. I'm sure that members of the group would like to know that they are being recorded.

I assume that much like it used to be 111 and 124 being recorded by the CFS(There are no doubt others, but these were the only ones relevant to Lofty Group) now it would be 150 and the other non simplex SAMFS talkgroups?

[CFS_Firey]

I'm sure that members of the group would like to know that they are being recorded.

Members were told, some chose not to believe it, others forgot.  IMHO that's their fault, not the fault of the group...  (Although I never saw an "official" notice...)

[Firefrog]

Recording is not new - The Para Group Base at One Tree Hill had a serious reel to reel mag tape recording system pre GRN. I first saw that about 15 years ago. Don't think it's still in service though.

[Katrina]

As long as everyone is informed that so-and-so has a recorder running at all times, or such-and-such vehicle is recording or the radio is always recorded then I guess it's okay but if I found out someone was recording me without me knowing about it then I would have a problem with that, especially if it was to be played to anyone else except the person who recorded it.

[jaff]

Sorry, but I just can't see the problem, you are "broadcasting" a message ,that can be picked up or monitored  by ANYONE , if you assume that all radio traffic is monitored/recorded ,it might make you pause,compose,review your message before you transmit.
Voice recorders are here to stay, they are usefull in the intervening period before you have a scribe on board or a station open, and with todays litigious society who would assume any controller role, without having a voicetrail of recordings to backup decisions made on the fireground.
Voice recorders should be standard eqipment in ALL appliances ,for everyones sake!

Cheers Jaff

[Darius]

I'm sure that members of the group would like to know that they are being recorded.

Members were told, some chose not to believe it, others forgot.  IMHO that's their fault, not the fault of the group...  (Although I never saw an "official" notice...)

indeed it was announced and spoken about at several group, captains and comms meetings before being implemented (which you will find documented in the minutes and reports).

FYI Gabe the group always used to record our channels/talkgroups but the old tape-based recorder ceased working properly some time ago so there was a period when there was no, or very poor quality, recording happening (at group level) - but in general it was always known that as a group we record our own traffic.  For certain incidents that occured during this period the group requested the recordings from SOC (eg. the bridgewater/engelbrecht fire).  This was far from ideal though as it required a phone call to SOC early in the incident to request them to select our talkgroups on a centracom (as only those selected were recorded at SOC).

Separate to anything else, all talkgroups are recorded at the network level at the SAGRN NOCC however it takes special circumstances to get hold of those recordings.

At present, as a group, we record all traffic on 136 and 137 and have the option to record a third talkgroup if required.  There also exists the option to record the group base phone lines although there are no plans at present to do this.

[littlejohn]

Separate to anything else, all talkgroups are recorded at the network level at the SAGRN NOCC however it takes special circumstances to get hold of those recordings.

Darius, are you saying all talkgroups are always recorded? I have heard otherwise.
I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I'm just seeking clarification.

It is interesting that some people would be unimpressed to learn they've been recorded. I wonder it they would conduct themselves differently if that were the case?!!
Considering the number of people listening in, it's probably best to assume you're being recorded!

[mengcfs]

This should be a little bit interesting. I'm sure that members of the group would like to know that they are being recorded.

I assume that much like it used to be 111 and 124 being recorded by the CFS(There are no doubt others, but these were the only ones relevant to Lofty Group) now it would be 150 and the other non simplex SAMFS talkgroups?

In our instance, the purchase of the scanner was passed at Group, so Captains should have advised all members what the circumstance was and that they would be recorded. All Regional talkgroups are recorderd. I bet half of the CFS population do not know that. If there was an obligation for CFS to advise all members i am sure they would have by now 

[6739264]

Its all about the flow of information up and down the chain of command. If the people doing the recording believe that those being recorded have been told, then that is fair enough, in their own right they are doing what they believe is correct. Whoever they sought permission from to record should make sure that the troops are made well aware of what is being recorded, by who and if these recordings are available. Three cheers for the CFS chain of command.

I'd love to hear the radio traffic to some of our bigger jobs. Perhaps we should look at using these recordings in training so that people can hear the differences between good and bad communications, especially in terms of radio protocol and informative sitreps.

[Darius]

Separate to anything else, all talkgroups are recorded at the network level at the SAGRN NOCC however it takes special circumstances to get hold of those recordings.

Darius, are you saying all talkgroups are always recorded? I have heard otherwise.
I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I'm just seeking clarification.

I have been told (by those that should know) that what I wrote above is the case however have not personally verified it.

[Zippy]

I believe its only the Regional Operations Talkgroups.  Which is why logging important detail on 124 when theres no one at group/brigade level to talk to, will cover your donkey.