House Fire Persons Trapped

[Camo]

Gday,

You have arrived at a house fire (Brick 3 Bedroom Home).  There is a report of 1 or 2 people trapped inside.  You only have 2 Sets or you have 4 Sets & only 2 operators, either way it doesnt matter.


The fire seems to be contained to the front lounge room (going pretty well), may have spread to the roof but you cant confirm or deny.


Do you send a team of BA operators in with out backup or do you wait for another BA appliance to arrive?

Explain your actions whether they be yes or no.

[alphaone]

Find out how far away the next appliance with a BA crew is then decide whether to commit my BA crew or wait till the next appliance is at least closer. Dont like the idea of a BA crew going into a structure unless there is backup there, or on its way, unless it is absolutely neccisary.

[Zippy]

Wait for Back up always...Especially cos the worse thing could happen at any time.  Find ways to vent smoke while awaiting backup.

[bittenyakka]

Wait for backup. that is the way it's done and if we start getting sloppy bad habits will develop and oneday something will go wrong.

extending on from this would anyone allow external BA operations to commence with only the knowledge that more crews are less that 5 min away?

[Camo]

Wait for backup. that is the way it's done and if we start getting sloppy bad habits will develop and oneday something will go wrong.

extending on from this would anyone allow external BA operations to commence with only the knowledge that more crews are less that 5 min away?

Do you mean external or internal?  No need to wait at all i dont think but internal ops it would be very hard decision to make.

Ideally the crews safety is the 1st thing to think about but really who is gonna wanna stand around knowing there is someone inside if they know there is backup on the way?

[5271rescue]

Gee Cam,why do you always make them filtered hard,looks as if we will have to wait for back up,but our safety must come first....there are things that you can do while waiting for back up to arrive... I can see where your coming from mate our back up may only be our second appliances or it may be 45 mins away.. There are things like has anyone really seen the people inside?? is there a car in the drive way??? look  hard call but I am sure we would all go for (1) our safety (2) wait for CABA back up....

[bittenyakka]

External- as in squirting water through a window 
internal- as in walking inside under the roof and out of sight of crews

[Firefrog]

So long as another crew is en route I would absolutely commit a crew to an internal attack. That decision is based on the crew having been trained in CFB and my regard for their experience being very high.

First arriving appliance must go to action in a safe way otherwise people will perish waiting for two trucks.

What do different agencies do? Does the first arriving appliance in SAMFS area commit to internal operations before other trucks arrive?

[JC]

If the second appliance is less than ten minutes away, i would send a crew in.

[uniden]

Yes MFS does. But there are still 2 more BA sets sitting on the appliance too. Can be grabbed and used for a crew rescue.

[Camo]

The way i see it....

wouldnt send crews in for supression activities but if the crew were willing and at the time it would appear pretty safe maybe get a crew to do a quick search of the back of the house with a hose line for protection.

and soon as i knew there was ba backup only a few minutes away then go all in.


But that would be only if the crew were comfortable in that situation...not gonna force them to go in without BA backup and nor should anyone.

[bajdas]

The way i see it....

wouldnt send crews in for supression activities but if the crew were willing and at the time it would appear pretty safe maybe get a crew to do a quick search of the back of the house with a hose line for protection.

and soon as i knew there was ba backup only a few minutes away then go all in.


But that would be only if the crew were comfortable in that situation...not gonna force them to go in without BA backup and nor should anyone.

Interested in the term 'force'. If I know someones life is at risk, then more urgency & risk is placed on me as a rescue volunteer.

This can be an expectation by the crew when working as a team. Nothing actually is voiced or physically actioned.

So a team leader stating that people trapped is already applying force on the BA team members of not disappointing the rest of the team.

[calspec]

I guess this is where the experience, if any, of your OIC is paramount.  This person needs to be able to carry out a very rapid assessment of the situation, knowing that persons are trapped, or at least inside, and wether the risk is greater than the chance of a successful rescue.  Hard call at best of times.  As a Firey, I would still want right of refusal. Don't think OIC's would "force" you to enter premesis if you weren't comfortable with it.  I would hope most would be prepared to do what they could, within reason and reasonable risk, to save a life - isn't that part of why we joined the service??

This is purely a personal point of view, from someone who has never had to enter a burning biulding, yet!

Some may say, what is a reasonable risk? and that no risk can be considered reasonable.  Tell that to the frantic mother who's five year old is still inside.

[uniden]

One of the first lines in the old BA course book. You need moral courage to be a BA operator. How true..

[Camo]

The way i see it....

wouldnt send crews in for supression activities but if the crew were willing and at the time it would appear pretty safe maybe get a crew to do a quick search of the back of the house with a hose line for protection.

and soon as i knew there was ba backup only a few minutes away then go all in.


But that would be only if the crew were comfortable in that situation...not gonna force them to go in without BA backup and nor should anyone.

Interested in the term 'force'. If I know someones life is at risk, then more urgency & risk is placed on me as a rescue volunteer.

This can be an expectation by the crew when working as a team. Nothing actually is voiced or physically actioned.

So a team leader stating that people trapped is already applying force on the BA team members of not disappointing the rest of the team.

Unfortunately i cant communicate silently via brain waves just yet so this is the way its gonna be i guess.   

[mack]

So long as another crew is en route I would absolutely commit a crew to an internal attack. That decision is based on the crew having been trained in CFB and my regard for their experience being very high.

thats all well and good until the pump dies.....

[Camo]

If you are going to pesimistic about everything then why turn up to any call just in case something might go wrong!


Dont stress just having a dig 

[mack]

lol - camo i know ya already know what i meant.... but am just staing, if ya chuck your crew in there by themselves, purely becasue the next arriving is "supposedly" less than 5 or 10minutes away, then its a bit foolish....


on the other hand, personally i would find it hard to stand outside while i knew there were people trapped inside...

[5271rescue]

Cam, old saying from one old fart (me) damned if you do and damned if you don't,but having said that and I have not woren a set in about 8 years due to my spare tyre. Its a very hard call and one that I am sure some off us  have all made before Yes I have made that call once before and to tell you the truth if the crew was willing and back up was not far away go for it. But you have to be sure that what actions you take as the OIC will be those of crew safety first. I guess if we look at this job,Cam is it in a rural area?? is it in a urban area?? Mate lets face it if its in a country rural area back up may be 20 Min's away but they may not be CABA brigade so then you have a bigger problem....

[SA Firey]

You have arrived at the job and a quick assessment from the OIC based on smoke colour and flame activity,fire characteristics,would determine what course of action you may take.Remembering that it is always crew safety first..think of number one.

A house fire can be a very emotional incident, especially when you have a parent of a child who may be trapped inside urging you to enter a building which due to your training and experience you deem unsafe to do so.

Unless there is clear indication of which part of the building the trapped person/s may be and can effect a snatch and grab rescue safely,and there are 2 BA operators on scene I would not commit a crew without having a backup safety crew CFB trained or not.

Even if the next responding brigade is 5 minutes away a lot can happen if things go wrong in SECONDS!!!

LIFE VS RISK