Author Topic: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005  (Read 35259 times)

Offline Alan J

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2010, 10:16:37 PM »
Simple.
L3 garments do not have the metabolic heat dissipation function of L1 garments. Therefore, your L1 protection is compromised.  

I always thought Australian PPE standards were in relation to what level of protection you got from external hazards only.  If not, wouldn't wearing long sleeved shirts or pants under your wildfire PPE "compromise" your protection and effectively mean you're not wearing gear that meets the standard?


Same is true of using structural helmets at bush fires.

Remember your basic fire safety - not all hazards are external.

And yes I'm in a Group which only issues structural helmets.  :-(

Isn't the issue with structural helmets that they're heavier, not warmer?


It's an issue, not the only one.  And there are lots of ways to lessen the
effectiveness of your PPE...

Caveat: I am more familiar with the AS for helmets (1801.3 & 4067) than I
am for ensembles. However, much has been written about both in various
technical forums including AFAC, EMA journals & CSIRO joint research with
fire services.)

The two sets of PPE are designed to defeat different primary & secondary threats.

The primary threat from rural fires is radiant heat, closely followed by
metabolic heat accumulating over many hours in a warm environment.
Radiant heat blocking is well understood.
Metabolic heat removal is achieved by promoting ventilation, specifically to
speed evaporation of sweat. Remember FF1/BFF1 - evaporation is how sweating
cools you, not just its presence on the skin. Wearing long clothes under rural
PPE can interfere with it, but such clothing is normally relatively light.
Water vapour from your sweat can still escape through that and the unsealed
outer shell, lowering humidity inside, and allowing more sweat to evaporate.
Because it needs to breathe, rural PPE has little insulating ability.

Structural PPE is intended to completely insulate the wearer from a lethally
hot atmosphere for a period of time. It therefore must not breathe at all. If
it breathes, it allows that hot atmosphere inside. Bad karma man. Clothing
that doesn't allow outside atmosphere in, also prevents inside from getting
out. Your sweat evaporates until the atmosphere inside your sauna suit is fully
saturated. Then it ceases to evaporate & just heats to body or exterior temp,
giving no cooling effect whatsosever.  Hopefully, by the time it gets to be a
real problem, you have blown your CABA cylinder and can come outside to cool
down again.

All the above applies to helmet design as well, plus some measures of impact &
penetration resistance, and attachment security. Rural helmet is designed to
ventilate the scone, structural to insulate it. Rural hat achieves ventilation
with some trade-off in impact resistance, but of course it can be made much
lighter without all that insulation in it.

I read somewhere that, although the head only accounts for about 10% of body
surface area, it accounts for 20% of body heat loss. Or absorption. That's on a
naked body, or one immersed in water. On a PPE clad body, the figure would be
higher. Yet for some reason it is felt ok to ignore this & seal the head in a
structure hat at rural fires. I'm not convinced that taking the structural hat
off for 15mins in every hour is entirely effective.  And the way trees were
dropping at the last few fires we've been at, methinks a rural hat worn 100% of
the time is a safer way to play than a stronger structure hat worn only 75%.

make sense ?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 10:55:34 AM by Alan J »
Alan J.
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Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2010, 08:07:29 AM »
that was a very well thought out post.

So if we made a Structural helmet shaped lv1 helmet would that satisfy all of you who think the bushwacker hat looks stupid :-D

Offline Alan J

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2010, 11:21:16 AM »
The BR9 isn't the only rural helmet on the market.
BR1 & BR3 both look 'better' in my opinion.
So does Scott Aspen's FF1.
Alan J.
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Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2010, 12:58:24 PM »
Thanks for that post Alan, as bittenyakka said, it's nice top have a well thought out and apparently researched post!  I do want to correct you on one thing though:

Structural PPE is intended to completely insulate the wearer from a lethally
hot atmosphere for a period of time. It therefore must not breathe at all. If
it breathes, it allows that hot atmosphere inside. Bad karma man. Clothing
that doesn't allow outside atmosphere in, also prevents inside from getting
out. Your sweat evaporates until the atmosphere inside your sauna suit is fully
saturated. Then it ceases to evaporate & just heats to body or exterior temp,
giving no cooling effect whatsosever.  Hopefully, by the time it gets to be a
real problem, you have blown your CABA cylinder and can come outside to cool
down again.

Lion's PBI Gold's moister barrier is achieved with two layers of GORE-TEX® membrane, which is, (allegedly), completely breathable.  I believe it is expected that fluid cannot penetrate the garments, but sweat vapours can escape, so while it's not as breathable as lighter fabrics might be, it's not a fully encapsulated suit.

Are you arguing PBI shouldn't be worn with widlfire gear because you'll get too hot, or because your ensemble won't meet the Australian Standard?  I can appreciate that some members would overheat and run into trouble, but I'm not convinced that's ground enough to blame the PPE and ban it...

So if we made a Structural helmet shaped lv1 helmet would that satisfy all of you who think the bushwacker hat looks stupid :-D

I'd have to see it first, but probably :p

Although that would mean carrying 2 helmets and 2 sets of gear to every job, which doesn't really appeal.

Darren

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2010, 01:58:15 PM »
From a personal stand point I have never had an issue with the heat in a structural helmet, I have had more issues with the rural helmet giving me a headache from the more flimsy parts digging in, and the visor and neck flap not covering as well as the structural helmet in a rather hot scrub fire.

Bring back the Top Guard...those were the days  :-D

Offline Alan J

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2010, 10:54:12 PM »
Are you arguing PBI shouldn't be worn with widlfire gear because you'll get too hot, or because your ensemble won't meet the Australian Standard?  I can appreciate that some members would overheat and run into trouble, but I'm not convinced that's ground enough to blame the PPE and ban it...

Not quite that simplistic.
There's a time & a place for each type of PPE.
I say understand the functions of the different PPE & wear the appropriate
ensemble to meet the actual risks of the job. A bit hard to
guessimate the exact details before arrival, but the general info is there -
weather & job type.
 
Dress to your real risks rather than a dogmatic "'x' PPE gives better protection."

The obvious ones are rural fires on hot days, & interior attack on cold ones.

Some contrary examples as far as The Roolz go...

when mopping up on the night after a cold front comes through, there's not
much risk of overheating in anything. Same for attending a rubbish fire on a wet
May evening.

On the other hand, standing around in structural with a stop/slow bat at an
RCR on a 35deg day because "it offers better protection" is also pretty stupid.

The Standards are intended to give some sort of measurable characteristics
to manufacturers, purchasers, and users.
Policies & SOPs are written for the lowest common denominator. And we've all
met just one or two of them...
Neither replace Mk.1 brain. They are useful to guide thinking.
And to cover the backsides of the people wearing legal responsibility for
our health & safety.

Thanks for the correction on the Lion gear's breathability (is that a real word?)
I guess my point about insulation properties preventing metabolic heat escaping
stands. The cooling mechanism is severely obstructed, although not completely.
Evaporating sweat directly off the skin seems to be be most effective.
Wicking it away first, then evaporating it is of some benefit, but not as much.

cheers
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 11:19:34 PM by Alan J »
Alan J.
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Offline Alan J

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2010, 11:40:54 PM »
Bring back the Top Guard...those were the days  :-D

A Top Guard tweaked to AS1801 part 3, with a visor & neck flap would be a pretty
good rural hat I think. Nice big shady brim, well ventilated, reasonably light.
(Don't know how they failed to meet the AS but assume they didn't as they
disappeared completely)

Who remembers the 1st generation of Pacific rural hats issued about 12 years ago?
Were pulled of the market pretty quick because their crown was filled with foam
instead of using a suspension harness. The difference between them & the Top
Guard was amazing. Putting on a Top Guard after wearing a Pacific for a while
was like putting your head in a fridge.
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline Zippy

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2010, 06:04:42 AM »
there are people out there that arent fussed about sweating a bit...afterall, flushing water through your system is what the government health campaign is now...

I'd prefer to lose  "X" times heat from my shoulders to hips,  than anywhere else...

Offline JJD

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2010, 10:18:32 AM »
Apologies if this sounds ignorant, but is there any way CFS could issue a cotton long-sleeved drill shirt (similar to MFS) to be worn with PBI.
I have experienced the extremely uncomfortable (not to mention borderline dangerous) situation where we were responded from a large structure job to an RCR. By the time we had the car stabilised i needed to scull the first bottle of water (i know that not the proper way to rehydrate but its all i had time for).
By the time we had the doors open i had little choice to remove my PBI jacket and scull a second bottle...
I understand this left me in a vulnerable situation with no PPE protection on my upper body but i had little choice. All we did from this point was remove the casualty from the vehicle however i would have been far more comrotable with a long sleeved cotton shirt. I had a brigade "fire and rescue" t-shirt on so i didnt look out of "uniform" to the public.
As i said before i would be a lot more comfortable in a long sleeved work shirt.
FYI the day was around 28-30 degrees around late morning so the sun wasnt that hot yet.
Thoughts?
Hmmm, a large unused document that is extremely important, but knowone knows what is in it or what it does.

Must be related to some sort of government department... - Footy


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Offline 6739264

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2010, 12:38:15 PM »
Until the CFS gets their brain into gear, just take your Wildfire Turnout Coat with you and use it for Rescue work.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Alex

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2010, 03:31:34 PM »
Or rip your liners out en route.

I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.

Offline JJD

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2010, 09:21:54 PM »

I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.

*shakes head* shame...
Hmmm, a large unused document that is extremely important, but knowone knows what is in it or what it does.

Must be related to some sort of government department... - Footy


Judge me on the service....not my payslip - misterteddy

Darren

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2010, 10:10:32 AM »
Been though this several times, if they issued the nomex work shirts that samfs use then they would only need to issue you with one uniform.


Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2010, 10:35:35 AM »
Or rip your liners out en route.

I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.

Isn't the next batch of field uniforms supposed to take that into account?  or is that just wishful thinking...?

Darren

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Re: PBI - Hated by CFSHQ Since 2005
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2010, 10:40:21 AM »
Think you might be wishing, if it had a proban treatment then there is no reason why not.

 

anything