Is that the time,,,send the next resource

[big bronto]

Hi guys

Just noticed today another Rescue which there seemed to be the same old long delay to get further help, someone from Onka Group might be able to fill in the gaps.

13:47:46 16-12-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC036 16/12/08 13:46,RESPOND RCR,BALHANNAH ,BALHANNAH MAP 0 0 0 TG140,BALHANNAH WOODSIDE RD OUTSIDE POST OFFIC,E 1 X TRAPPED,LOBE19 OAKB00 CFS Oakbank/Balhannah Response

13:53:13 16-12-08 LOBE: RESPOND LOBETHAL STATION SIREN MANUALLY ACTIVATED CFSRES CFS Lobethal Response

13:58:56 16-12-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC036 16/12/08 13:46,RESPOND RCR,BALHANNAH ,BALHANNAH MAP 0 0 0 TG140,BALHANNAH WOODSIDE RD OUTSIDE POST OFFICE X TRAPPED group rescue persons req CFS Onkaparinga RCR Info

Now i may be on the wrong path here but it seems if Lobethal are struggling at the 6 minute mark as a rescue resource time to get the next rescue on the road. How does this group respond extra operators from the group, do they respond in their private vehicles or do they repspond a fire appliance.

Remember if you standing there with no one cover your butt and send help. You can always stop a truck.

[Zippy]

There's two solutions to that problem,  today they chose the 2nd one.   the first one is default...and Mt barker can easily pick up the loss of time.

Theres about 3 RCR operators per brigade on average outside lobethal.  Paged as a backup.  I dont entirely agree with this concept, which is similar to Balhannah hazmat's group operators, for hazmats its fine, road crashes theres less time to wait.

but in the end,  no Entrapments, so no issue, yet.

[big bronto]

No entrapments this time Zippy...but you start doing this and it will keep happening, possibly the brigade needs to read the green book stating the requirements of the rescue brigade.

[Zippy]

yeah,  they need to train up further operators within the brigade.

[Robert]

There's two solutions to that problem,  today they chose the 2nd one.   the first one is default...and Mt barker can easily pick up the loss of time.

Theres about 3 RCR operators per brigade on average outside lobethal.  Paged as a backup.  I dont entirely agree with this concept, which is similar to Balhannah hazmat's group operators, for hazmats its fine, road crashes theres less time to wait.

but in the end,  no Entrapments, so no issue, yet.

This is a joke!!! There is only 1 solution Default and get another rescue brigade on the road! onka group need to become professional and start thinking about the patient trapped in the car. after 12minutes you cant just put out another response page in the hope that you may get some other trained rescue crew rock up!!!!ha in their private car!!!!! (cue the banjo music)

[Zippy]

There's two solutions to that problem,  today they chose the 2nd one.   the first one is default...and Mt barker can easily pick up the loss of time.

Theres about 3 RCR operators per brigade on average outside lobethal.  Paged as a backup.  I dont entirely agree with this concept, which is similar to Balhannah hazmat's group operators, for hazmats its fine, road crashes theres less time to wait.

but in the end,  no Entrapments, so no issue, yet.

This is a joke!!! There is only 1 solution Default and get another rescue brigade on the road! onka group need to become professional and start thinking about the patent trapped in the car. after 12minutes you cant just put out another response page in the hope that you may get some other trained rescues crew rock up!!!!ha in their private car!!!!! (cue the banjo music)

i agree robert.

the use of group rcr operators should only happen if they are on the primary fire responding appliance in the first place.

[OMGWTF]

The obvious solution is to train up more operators for Lobethal, and in the mean time put the brigade on a dual-rescue response, such as Meadows have done.

If other responding brigades can supply some operators its nice, but you need them on the road straight up, not half an hour later.


I dont believe this problem has been common for Loby?

[Zippy]

Not a bad idea (dual responding).

Infact for CFS area, wouldnt it be worthwhile having a dual response of Rescue brigades for a 75% and higher chance of entrapments.

Adelaide Fire should when dispatching avoid using "Clean up only", "1 x trapped"...avoids assumptions..

Just incident type and location. oh BUT, BUT, BUT even incident type can be deciving! Mt Barker's latest domestic fire > "TREE FIRE", in a typical CFS brigade you would have everyone kitting up in Level 1 only to find a domestic dwelling in a well developing stages of fire. "Oh bugger"

Instead use the "Vehicle Accident" and "RCR" incidents to differ between severity of call.

MFS: *CFSRES INC036 16/12/08 13:46,RESPOND RCR,ONKAPARINGA VALLEY ROAD,BALHANNAH MAP 147 6 9 TG140,OUTSIDE POST OFFICE,OAKB00 LOBE19 MBRK19

Consider Entrapments for every Road Accident.

[6739264]

Not a bad idea (dual responding).

Infact for CFS area, wouldnt it be worthwhile having a dual response of Rescue brigades for a 75% and higher chance of entrapments.

Adelaide Fire should when dispatching avoid using "Clean up only", "1 x trapped"...avoids assumptions..

Just incident type and location. oh BUT, BUT, BUT even incident type can be deciving! Mt Barker's latest domestic fire > "TREE FIRE", in a typical CFS brigade you would have everyone kitting up in Level 1 only to find a domestic dwelling in a well developing stages of fire. "Oh bugger"

Instead use the "Vehicle Accident" and "RCR" incidents to differ between severity of call.

MFS: *CFSRES INC036 16/12/08 13:46,RESPOND RCR,ONKAPARINGA VALLEY ROAD,BALHANNAH MAP 147 6 9 TG140,OUTSIDE POST OFFICE,OAKB00 LOBE19 MBRK19

Consider Entrapments for every Road Accident.

The old days of "RCR" and "MVA spillage" used to work well. There were only a handful of occaisions where the "MVA spillage" would turn out to be a rescue job. I still can't get my head around seeing pages that have "RESPOND: RCR blah blah blah, No entrapments, minor spill" That is NOT an RCR job. Either call it and RCR job and leave it at "possible persons trapped" at most, or if there is no persons trapped, just leave it at MVA. I understand the issue people have with members of the public and unconfirmed info, but if that is the case then we should have a Rescue appliance turnout to every single MVA - as happens in some groups.

I think you're very correct Zippy in your comments about having certain information tacked onto the pager message doing more harm than good. We all have to call Adelaide Fire to ack the page, and we ask for more info then, so why can't the number of persons trapped/spill only etc be part of that further info. At times eg: Multiple Persons Trapped/Deceased I think its good to have the heads up, but if things are looking that bad, Comms should be turning out appropriate resources.

As for the Barker Tree Fire - House fire issue, you have a perfect example of why it pays to wear your structural kit, no matter what the incident, when you're on a truck with CABA sets.

[bittenyakka]

So why can;t someone say "PBi is allowed to every call" in my group i would have been shot for wearing it ti a tree fire. (it would have still been on the truck)

But on the same token Doesn't the extra information help sometimes, eg. we once had a fire at one of our lts house, the pager had his name on it so it meant we had 2 full crews faster that ever before, 

[Zippy]

we should be responding to the Tone of the pager, rather than the detail, i think in most cases.  If adelaide fire has non-urgent responses for brigade's, perhaps a brigade duty officer system needs to happen with a single pager being alerted. Meanwhile Group duty officers can worry about whether or not the brigade has responded or not. just a few ideas for those few which can consider them.

[jaff]

So why can;t someone say "PBi is allowed to every call" in my group i would have been shot for wearing it ti a tree fire. (it would have still been on the truck)

But on the same token Doesn't the extra information help sometimes, eg. we once had a fire at one of our lts house, the pager had his name on it so it meant we had 2 full crews faster that ever before, 

Being a bit overdramatic arent you Bittenyakka, no volunteers have been shot for 5 -6 years now, beatings are now the preffered way of point making!

[bittenyakka]

rofl

[6739264]

But on the same token Doesn't the extra information help sometimes, eg. we once had a fire at one of our lts house, the pager had his name on it so it meant we had 2 full crews faster that ever before, 

Dare I ask, without pulling this thread off topic, why there would be a difference in the crewing and the time it takes to get mobile, between a Domestic Fire and Domestic Fire - Bobs house. Its the same job, even if its one of your members, it shouldn't change a thing.

The lack of further info being included on the initial page was more of a suggestion for RCR incidents, as it is confuing to be paged to an RCR job, and then have the further info say "No entrapments" If you have enough info to state on the pager "nill trapped" then it should be a simple MVA page, but if you are querying the information on persons trapped, and want to cover your arse by tagging the call RCR and getting the local Rescue service to the job as well, you may as well leave out the speculation regarding the number of people trapped.

Ofcourse for other incidents eg: Domestic fires, you want to know if there have been multiple 000 calls, if people are trapped, or if you need to access the builing from another point that is not the listed address. Still all of this can be relayed to crews when you call Adelaide Fire and ask for more info.

[bittenyakka]

No it shouldn't change a thing but i think it did.

[big bronto]

What should happen is the brigade is paged to a job type, address and who is going. Then when a brigade books on the road or rings MFS they get the further information, this may then prompt brigades to upgrade responses and if they are not mobile then go maybe i should send someone else. Pagers are only there to alert members of a firecall not to give them everything under the sun about the job, maybe we should go page to tone only pagers. You cannot tell me you would get the same amount of members turn out to a RCR just with an address or RCR-no entrapments spill only.

[Robert-Robert34]

What should happen is the brigade is paged to a job type, address and who is going. Then when a brigade books on the road or rings MFS they get the further information, this may then prompt brigades to upgrade responses and if they are not mobile then go maybe i should send someone else. Pagers are only there to alert members of a firecall not to give them everything under the sun about the job, maybe we should go page to tone only pagers. You cannot tell me you would get the same amount of members turn out to a RCR just with an address or RCR-no entrapments spill only.

Bronto are you referring to the Motorola minitor pagers that have tone alert followed by a voice which informs that theres a call out and its location

 

[Baxter]

Bronto are you referring to the Motorola minitor pagers that have tone alert followed by a voice which informs that theres a call out and its location

 

A pager with a voice I would find a bit on off a pain at work and hoping not  sound as though I've got the wrong end of the stick. I remember the pager that we use to have in the CFS / SES where you had no voice and no writting just two tones. If memory serves me correctly the crew numbers where good as you never knew what you were going to till you got to the station or you were on the fire phone.

I can now see with the advent of technology the draw backs that system had e.g. no information messages like when the next group meeting or a fire ban the next day or other pertinant information that would be needed by members.

But back to matter at hand when do you send the next resource if the initial resource is not on the road in ten minutes in a more populous area and its a life / property threat and 30 minutes in the so so populated areas. If it not a life threat or property threat then time is not such a critical factor. When I say property threat I don't mean someone who has decided to build there house on a flood plain where water damage is inedible.

[mattb]

But back to matter at hand when do you send the next resource if the initial resource is not on the road in ten minutes in a more populous area and its a life / property threat and 30 minutes in the so so populated areas

Within our group we allow four minutes for the urban brigades and six minutes for the rural's. In my brigade at the four minute mark if we are not mobile the brigade duty officer is on the phone to the station to find out what is going on and turning out the next closest resource, we then also hit the 'More Crew' button on the Alpha decoder.

[Darren]

Yes lets go back to tone only pagers, nothing like having 20 or 30 people rock up for a bin fire.

[Alan (Big Al)]

Yes lets go back to tone only pagers, nothing like having 20 or 30 people rock up for a bin fire.

Ahh yes i remember the days when we never had a crewing problem whe we had those pagers.

[Zippy]

just make it:   

MFS: *CFSRES INC016 19/12/08 08:39,RESPOND To,STATION CAMBRAI CFS,CAMBRAI MAP 0 0 0 TG207,,MPLT19 CAMB00

[big bronto]

No robert the old pagers that just went beep beep, no voice, no screen...

[SA Firey]

It makes sense to dual respond brigades for an RCR job, remember you can always stop call them if they are not required.Also on the off chance that there are 2 seperate entrapments you have a crew available to work on each vehicle.There are still many brigades who are afraid to default in the timeframe of 6 minutes, but remember people are relying on us to help them, and provide a service.
Many hands make light work