SA Firefighter

I think that if it was released as a voluntary option for people to undertake of their own free will it would get more support than if it was a mandatory thing.

It would be good to see brigades pick it up and offer it to people who might like to do it together as a group.

Found an interesting website the other day when going through some information that a mate passed on to me. Would be good to see this style of system offered, on a non compulsory basis, in CFS/SES.

www.nifc.gov/FireFit/index.htm

What do people think?

I was joking...what you just said was exactly the point i was trying to make by my post hence the  :evil: at the end!

Just a question...If we are having such a big whinge about CFS not being called to a job by SAAS why are you whinging about sending 2 rescues? What happens if there are two cars involved and there are 2 people trapped in separate cars, not fair for 1 person to get rescued and the other to have to wait..Better to respond 2 rescues and stop call one if you arrive on scene and a 2nd rescue is not required!  :evil:

Quote from: Crownie24 on February 06, 2008, 10:14:43 PM

Well actually I think the government leave the services in a certain position of disarray, and they don't guarantee 100% success because of the of chance that they fuk up. At least in its current state they can say woops wow yeah your right to sue me it looks very much screwed up....oh well we'll fix it...much like the black Tuesday event...they will always leave the services a portion screwed to cover their own assess (for that of chance that their 100% guarantee was really only 99%)...it isn't really about the public its about the level of comfort the politicians enjoy!

I have to say i think that is a load of crap. To say the the service/government do that is a joke. The service, no matter what it is now, was started by volunteer decades ago based on a need to help the community. I am sure that from the day that this service began they have been trying to achieve 100% in the service that they provide the public.

Have you ever heard of the Centre for Lessons Learned?? Probably not because it seems if you had of you might not have stated that the service/government are holding back so that they don't have to take any real responsibility. From my understanding any incident where there was a issue registered the CFS has put together a group of people to look at the problem and find a solution...ie. Bushfire Warning Messages! Before Jan 11 the Phase warning system was not really that adequate in the delivery of its messages...a range of stakeholders sat down after Jan 11 and identified problems and developed the new Bushfire Information and Warning System that is in place now that is marks above what some other states in Australia have. Now if the Government was holding things back why would they fund these programs??

Ok well if you think that you can get every agency comcen to get it right 100% of the time or even 99% of the time then I vote you should become our next Emergency Services Minister.

I know that the topics you want included have been previously mentioned but i thought you might be able to provide a little more insight into exactly what each of those topics should contain. ie. ventilation- ppv, manual ventilation techniques etc.

Where would you base the course? Brukunga? Is the STC big enough to produce the facilities and still maintain the other courses that it runs there for accommodation and food etc.

Do we also need to look at Commercial structural training and domestic structural training?

Do you mean comms operators in brigades of comcen officers?

If you mean comcen operators...i don't agree that a bunch of vollies should comment on the response and notification times of different agencies when they have NO real life experience in a comcen! It works two ways.

Generally speaking most of the calls that have entrapments that CFS aren't called to have more to do with people in the incident not giving people information and sometimes when it comes to country jobs it can take longer than 5 minutes to process a call when one person is taking a call and another person dispatches the call to the correct location and by the correct means.

Maybe there is a reason that some country SAAS avoid some CFS people...I would rather be in an accident in the country and be in a bad way to only have SAAS rock up than to have some CFS brigade try to take a punt at how to give me adequate first aid while they are waiting for SAAS and me never being able to walk again or me ending up worse than if i was left alone, and i am not referring to all CFS brigades but i am sure we all know someone that we wouldn't want to turn up and an MVA they were involved in for safety's sake!

And yes i know at times it can work the other way with SAAS trying to pull a person out with out rescue being on scene yet but that is a different topic all together.

But hey that is all that these topics seem to be...same comments just reworded!

So back on topic, If CFS introduce more structural training what should be included and how should it be delivered?

No no they blow stuff up...its called over exaggerating to the media!!  :-D

It appears as though i am not the only one who is exaggerating, that is the point i was trying to make!

Quote from: Crownie24 on February 06, 2008, 08:37:40 PM
And your missing my point it removes the delay...because the call comes in at time A SAAS arrives time B calls CFS/SES at time B and they arrive at time C, it arranges it so that CFS/SES get called at time A and arrive circa time B, if you don't need them you quickly get on your GRN and you say CFS/SES not needed and all is well.

So please can someone tell me why if we know that for these incident we are going to get stop called we need to be responded in the first place, that is the big question here. If it is a job where cfs are required then they are 99% of the time called at the time the emergency call is taken when the other agencies are responded, I know this because I have some in-site in to the day to day running of the comcens. People here in other forums go on and on about not getting things they think their brigade deserves well most of the reason why is because it comes down to money, money that is wasted going to stupid calls that CFS are not required at that they get stop called to.

Oh and i am not saying you can't have an opinion but having some fact to back it up is really helpful in other people people being able to understand your point of view.

No no we should respond all brigades in that Group in case the car and the ambulance blow up...hey we can always stop call them if it doesn't happen  :evil:

Hmm not sure how many SAAS people are on here but can someone from SAAS please tell me how many times you have been called to a fender bender cause "oh my neck hurts" or "I've got whiplash" so that they can try to claim compo.

On top of that they are called to all manner of things that are classed as an MVA or TRAFFIC have no requirement what so ever for a CFS brigade to attend eg. car vs pedestrian or car vs bike etc.

Oh and if I have managed to name every situation that SAAS would have stop called us on then what is the point of this conversation continuing, it is a waste of our time to be turned out...tell me what situation that we aren't required at that we don't get called for...other than for spills that usually come in an hour after SAAS are there so that we don't tie up our service for time that we will just be waiting around for.

Speaking of FGP's I am surprised that there isn't one for "Forming your opinion of the CFS, and its paid structure, based on your Brigades opinion". There seems to be enough of it going on around here :-D

Wow i am surprised..here i was waiting to get an ear bashing and i actually got support...Thank you gentleman!

Yes there are some issues but at the end of the day like i have said before it is usually as a result of human error along the way and it is usually not a deliberate act against the other agency...there is no harm trying to get things right 100% of the time but i can tell you now you are never going to have a 100% success rate at anything in life..and goodluck if you do, maybe you should go buy a lotto ticket  :-D

Oh I know if the grievance system doesn't work why doesn't everyone go to the media!!  :-o

Oh wait no that's already happened and hey look things are still the same. Did anyone ever stop to think why? Probably because the CFS not being called can be justified.

Now this will, I am sure, see me cop an ear bashing from 90% of the forum but I will say it anyway. Consider that CFS was sent to all MVA's, including every little fender bender in the state, now not only does this tie up an emergency service that might be required elsewhere but it would also put increased pressure on all the comcens and waste a lot of time and money that could be used elsewhere. On the other side of the scale, how many times have you been to a MVA where the vehicle catches fire after a service has arrived on scene??? If there is no real threat of fire, no need for spill clean up and there is no need for rescue or assistance with first aid then why is there a need for CFS to be out there. This is why there are times that CFS are called way after the fact because SAAS don't need a bunch of vollies getting in their way while they do their job.

Having come from a reasonably busy brigade you get sick of responding to nothing MVA's it is a waste of volunteers time. I think that most of the problem is that people are just sticky beaks and want to get their call rates up! Just my opinion.

I'm not having a go saying you don't know what you are talking about i just think that the comment you made was very unjust! Just my opinion is all, not right or wrong!

Question for other vollies with CFS or with SAAS who are out in the country.

What are relations like between the two services when they are on scene together at a job like a MVA etc? Do the services get along well and work together or do they not?

Quote from: Crownie24 on February 05, 2008, 01:20:03 PM
I understand what he's saying but I hope to god he doesn't use his own judgment on deciding who would be better of dead...
In addition my house doesn't/won't catch on fire....

Wow big attitude there!

I think that you are pretty harsh even suggesting that he would use his own judgement to decide who is better off dead, i don't think any person in that position would do anything of the sort. I don't think that you quite got the point that he was trying to make!

Would also be good to see in what capacity the person is undertaking in the affiliated service, eg. paid/volunteer etc.

Yes we all know that there are paid staff of some services on here, and that their views are very welcome!  :wink:

Jaff, I agree with you that there is a need for looking at and accepting shortcomings as emergency services but i think that there is more 'service bashing' than constructive criticism going on and i think that a lot of it comes down to all services, staff and volunteers, accepting that it is never going to be 100% achievable all the time. I am also certain that there is no one service that could take the moral high ground. Sorry if i haven't been able to express my view clearly to show that.

Quote from: chook on February 05, 2008, 08:00:47 AM
Its called root cause analysis, not finding blame, not pointing fingers but instead finding the root causes of why these things happen & how measures can be put in place to prevent the same error occurring again.
Anyway it is highly unlikely we will find common ground on this subject.
so cheers

Too bad your comment this time is so far from your comments previous...No finding blame and no finger pointing seems exactly like what is happening lately in here!

However I agree that no common ground will ever be found because it seems everyone has their thoughts on who is to blame and how to fix the people who are the problem.

Quote from: chook on February 05, 2008, 06:15:20 AM
And yes most of the time everything goes right, however what if it was your family involved in that 1%?

Without seeming insensitive, which i am sure i will get called for this, unfortunately it is a cold hard fact of life that people do die and people do get seriously injured, yeah it sucks but it happens and most of the time the damage is done before any emergency service are responded or can get to them. The fact that most of these occurrences are in the country probably double the chance of them happening because of their remoteness from emergency services and from other people who might be passing by.

What ever way you want to look at this there is never going to be a 100% success rate in anything aspect of CFS, MFS, SAAS, SAPOL, SES or any other agency in the world. There is always going to be that 1% chance that something is not going to be done correctly whether it be through human error, which happens from time to time for a huge number of reasons, or through a lack of information given to emergency services from people who call these jobs in. Through feel free to correct me if you are perfect and could do the job right 100% of the time!  :wink:

Quote from: StopCallKing on February 04, 2008, 11:42:15 PM

Faux Pas, for someone who, in postings in other topics sounds like a ministerial plant, in this one, you sound like someone who actually "gets it" !! What gives?

Considering for a second that not every one shares the same views and opinions, it may also pay for you to consider that not all people have the same perspective regarding a service. There is more to the CFS than just the volunteers. If the service was run JUST by volunteers you would find that things would be even less achievable than some of you seem to think they are now through paid staff.

I have had experience in a number of different brigades that have ranged from very quiet to very busy and been involved with the service in a training capacity, seen the different sides of issues faced by these brigades and been able to take on board these differences that have resulted in me seeing things from a different perspective.

Simple solution to it all...Volunteers, Staff and the Government need to step outside the square their opinions live in and see it from each others perspective. That might promote a change in everyones thinking.

More indepth training should be introduced for structure fires but, sorry to those brigades that do maybe 3 structure jobs a year, the training should be limited to brigades in the urban and urban/rural category then the rural/urban category as a matter of need in those areas.

Again though a lot of that comes down to Gavernment not giving CFS the funding to develop the course. CFS have had people in training in the past who have developed or put forward ideas but due to a lack of funding, just like where they are taking money from BA courses, these courses can't run.