why dont CFS appliances have BA seats. Dennis excluded.
not 100% sure, but i would hazard a geuss that the issue is cost.
also i dont think it would be practical considering the chassis we tend to use. it would impact on the number of crew you could seat (since the 'proper' seats take up a bit of room), it would impact on cab space and also ease of entry/exit into the vehicle....
CABA seats,well would you like to come out of a high 34 with a caba set on??? OHSW would have a field day,but all in all they would be too high up in the seat and getting out would not be that easy due to the hight of the new appliances....
sorry should ahve been more clear, IM referring to the type 2's.
As someone said the issue would be cost. And really even the busiest CFS brigades dont go to more then maybe 1 going Domestic a month (ball park figure, open to correction) is it really cost effective even if it were affordable?
But how much money can you put on a life i guess?
It easier and better for OHS.
how is it easier and better for OHS?
From what i have seen the Type 2's have fold out BA holders which lower down to the right height and as for being easier well probaly not.
I would rather put a BA on at ground level then climb down from the cab with one on. I would suggest OHS would see it the same way.
The only thing it does is maybe save 30 secs to a min.
not everyone is the same height, Id rather have it on in the cab then climb out. Why wouldnt it be easier, dont say it wont without evidence.
I say it is because you are sitting in the truck, you put on the straps release the release thing and climb out like climbing down a ladder and in ya can go.
30sec to 1 minute can make a big difference.
Camo, et al,
OHS&W isnt all about manual handling. While climbing out of a high cab, while wearing an airset does present some awkward situations, put that into perspective of what you may be required to do while wearing BA (climbing up/down ladders, working on rooves, etc). I think the big benefit of BA sets in the seat, is that BA then tends to be worn more reguarly (car fires/bin fires, etc)reducing the ammount of smoke therefore potential carcenogens etc, breathed in. I would also think that donning/ starting up a BA set in 30 secs to a minute under pressure would be difficult to do and some vital things may be ommited. While donning and starting up in the cab gives more time in a less pressured environemnt (compared to standing out the front of someones burning house). Also re-Comments that busy brigades may only go to one house fire a month, that may be true, but include all the care fires, bin fires, fire alarms etc that they attend and BA use starts to get higher. I think BA seats are of great benifit in Urban applainces, i wouldnt think 24p/34p appliances would warrent them, but the pumper appliances should.
SK
Yep, SK's got it right.
I saw some MFS guys even using BA at the Wingfield dump fire. That place must have stunk.
Full points to skirmoe. Being a volunteer service, we are already arriving later than a paid service would. The quicker we can get to work on arrival the better, and it's probably safer to climb down off a truck with BA, than to climb up a ladder with BA...
PF, we are required to wear BA for essentially every fire that isn't a grass/scrub fire (although wearing BA at those is more common these days)... I wouldn't want to fight a dump fire without BA...
Quite frankly, if you have difficulty climbing out of a truck with a BA set on, you shouldn't be using them. Not only would BA seats allow us to don/start up much faster and as SK said, in a less pressured environment, but they would also open up and entire new locker worth of stowage space. This can only be a good thing.
Is there a real issue with only being able to seat 5 on an appliance? I dont think so. Its an Urban Appliance, if going to a working job, then there will no doubt be more appliances and people on the way. Something thats not BA? MVA's etc, you can all do with less than 6 people.
I remember being on the road once in our good old 32 pumper - got a call for a going structure fire. We arrived first, Capt putting in a priority voice while we donned CABA on the road side.
I am fast at donning and took probably 30-45 seconds. First SAMFS pump arrives two guys leave the cab of the truck and are inside knocking the fire down before I can drag our HP line. We had a good fast crew, but the time saved by already being donned and started up prior to arrival saved them heaps of time.
I was not impressed that they beat me :-D
Quote from: CFS_Firey on October 01, 2006, 02:00:50 PM
PF, we are required to wear BA for essentially every fire that isn't a grass/scrub fire (although wearing BA at those is more common these days)... I wouldn't want to fight a dump fire without BA...
me neither, just saying :-)
Remember if CFS was to get BA seats they would probarly require thje smaller 300bar cylinders so they would fit.
Being able to jump out of a truck and charge in so quickly does create some possible ECO proplems.
Quote from: bittenyakka on October 01, 2006, 06:31:21 PM
Remember if CFS was to get BA seats they would probarly require thje smaller 300bar cylinders so they would fit.
Being able to jump out of a truck and charge in so quickly does create some possible ECO proplems.
Why? Multiple fire services around the world, including CFS/NSWFB/QFRS all run the larger 9L cylinders in their BA seats with no issue.
Why does it create an ECO issue? You take your tally key and give it to the OIC of your appliance if there is no ECO yet?
Quote from: Camo on October 01, 2006, 11:03:52 AM
I would rather put a BA on at ground level then climb down from the cab with one on. I would suggest OHS would see it the same way.
i would rather already be started up on arrival than waste another 30-45 seconds.
Ok im big enough to admit defeat!
You have all put up good evidence as to why they are better.
aaah its not defeat....
we all have our own opinions.
Quote from: Toast on October 01, 2006, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: bittenyakka on October 01, 2006, 06:31:21 PM
Remember if CFS was to get BA seats they would probarly require thje smaller 300bar cylinders so they would fit.
Being able to jump out of a truck and charge in so quickly does create some possible ECO proplems.
Why? Multiple fire services around the world, including CFS/NSWFB/QFRS all run the larger 9L cylinders in their BA seats with no issue.
Why does it create an ECO issue? You take your tally key and give it to the OIC of your appliance if there is no ECO yet?
I didn't know that 9L cylinders fitted in seats well it was an assumption. but if we had smaller ones they would be reasonable to put in higher rural appliances and you wouldn't break your neck getting out.
The 9L cylinders do fit, however if CFS adopted the SAMFS style cylinder, not only do they hold more air, but are lighter and alot more ' user friendly '.
One thing though, with climbing heights, the Scania's are alot lower to the ground compared to Type 2's.
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 01, 2006, 09:52:48 PM
The 9L cylinders do fit, however if CFS adopted the SAMFS style cylinder, not only do they hold more air, but are lighter and alot more ' user friendly '.
One thing though, with climbing heights, the Scania's are alot lower to the ground compared to Type 2's.
Are you sure they hold more air? They still have around a 30mins working duration I believe, the difference being that they are half the size, hence at a higher pressure to maintain the same amount of air?
Now I personally could go a 2x9L CFW setup, 60min duration :evil:
why dont CFS have MFS type Cylinders and BA set up? They are ergonomically better, lighter, more comfortable etc. What we need is BA seats in our urban pumpers and new BA sets.
There are excellent arguments for why we should ahve BA seats in appliances and Im sure CFS know this so the question is why havent they put them into use? Time to make some changes and put them in amd get new BA sets.
Quote from: Toast on October 02, 2006, 01:01:00 AM
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 01, 2006, 09:52:48 PM
The 9L cylinders do fit, however if CFS adopted the SAMFS style cylinder, not only do they hold more air, but are lighter and alot more ' user friendly '.
One thing though, with climbing heights, the Scania's are alot lower to the ground compared to Type 2's.
Are you sure they hold more air? They still have around a 30mins working duration I believe, the difference being that they are half the size, hence at a higher pressure to maintain the same amount of air?
Now I personally could go a 2x9L CFW setup, 60min duration :evil:
You could be quite right, I was under the belief they had more air time, I will find out.
Quote from: Federer on October 02, 2006, 01:56:15 AM
why dont CFS have MFS type Cylinders and BA set up? They are ergonomically better, lighter, more comfortable etc. What we need is BA seats in our urban pumpers and new BA sets.
There are excellent arguments for why we should ahve BA seats in appliances and Im sure CFS know this so the question is why havent they put them into use? Time to make some changes and put them in amd get new BA sets.
Money
First we need to replsace half the trucks in the state. And get all the PBI gold etc
True, money is always a problem. Isnt PBI means to be paid for by the government or was that only the first batch?
Quote from: Federer on October 02, 2006, 01:56:15 AM
why dont CFS have MFS type Cylinders and BA set up? They are ergonomically better, lighter, more comfortable etc. What we need is BA seats in our urban pumpers and new BA sets.
There are excellent arguments for why we should ahve BA seats in appliances and Im sure CFS know this so the question is why havent they put them into use? Time to make some changes and put them in amd get new BA sets.
Not only money, but it'd be great if CFS could built a proper urban pumper for the seats to be in :wink:
Our current sets aren't too bad, although CFW cylinders would be a huge bonus.
Quote from: bittenyakka on October 02, 2006, 08:53:24 AM
Quote from: Federer on October 02, 2006, 01:56:15 AM
why dont CFS have MFS type Cylinders and BA set up? They are ergonomically better, lighter, more comfortable etc. What we need is BA seats in our urban pumpers and new BA sets.
There are excellent arguments for why we should ahve BA seats in appliances and Im sure CFS know this so the question is why havent they put them into use? Time to make some changes and put them in amd get new BA sets.
Money
First we need to replsace half the trucks in the state. And get all the PBI gold etc
BINGO!!!
The biggest issue is the current trucks won't fit BA seats in because they are too big and your knees would be up against the drivers seat (except for the dennis of course).
The next issue is that we would have to get the lightweight cylinders as used at STC for compartment so as you weren't jumping out the truck with so much weight on your back.
I was in Canberra recently.......ACT Fire use them..but admit theres been lot injured when getting out of their Scannia trucks..I bet OH&S has lot to do with it here..
Quote from: TillerMan on October 16, 2006, 11:26:00 AM
The next issue is that we would have to get the lightweight cylinders as used at STC for compartment so as you weren't jumping out the truck with so much weight on your back.
you dont jump out of the truck.
If you get out backwards and carefully you are no more likely to hurt yourself than without a set on. I dont have any problems.
Isnt that why we have fire curtains in the cab? To swing off when getting out of the truck?
Scania have recently upgraded the cab to allow for this with fold down steps that fold down as the door is opened, this should make things easier.
It only occured to me the other day but how comfortable is a BA seat when you aren't useing the BA set. Would it be reasonable to sit there whilst driving off on a strike team for a couple of hours?
Why would you be taking an urban pumper to a strike team? Thats what 34 is for.
Yeah the back plate is a bit firm to sit against. Not too bad though. The drivers seat is much more comfortable but.
Quote from: Ryan on October 28, 2006, 10:41:43 AM
Why would you be taking an urban pumper to a strike team? Thats what 34 is for.
well I meant any slightly extenede period where the BA set will not be used and the seat will be requied.
IM sure its more comfortable than sitting in the open back of an older style 34.
They aren't the "most" comfortable seats in the world, but they are built for a purpose, not so much for comfort.
Admittedly I haven't spent *long* durations sitting in the BA seats, nothing like a country drive or anything, but they are fine over shorter distances, and do save those few critical seconds it takes to get off, don a set, etc.
Was driving through Mt Barker on Wednesday (1st November) and seen Mt barker Pumper & rescue at what looked like an MVA...couldnt get close enough to see but their was a FF in a BA Set.
What i wanna ask is when responding to an MVA does a person in a BA seat get out the appliance with the set on or only if fire is visible?
Did you take any photos ? :-o
Pip
The Dennis has a bench seat setup, with I believe all four BA sets across the back seats(correct me if I'm wrong). Camo, why would you get out of the applance to an MVA with a set on if there is no fire? That would be like getting out of the appliance walking to the locker and donning a set... You don't do that do you?
All BA seats allow you to do, is don/startup the set IN the appliance, rather than have to walk to a locker, don and then start up. A time saving device really.
That sounds a bit unusual, where was this job exactly?
QuoteMFS: RESPOND Tree Down 01/11/06 10:53,DRUIDS AV,MT BARKER, MAP 172 L 6 ,,TREE DOWN AT MT BARKER SWIMMING POOL - ON POWER LINES AND MAY HAVE DAMAGED LPG BULLET- P1 - FROM STAFF - 0437 384 371,72120 1279*CFSRES:
That's the only call they were paged for in Mt Barker - it would explain the BA set with no fire...
All they need is for their to be a car and a fixed alarm going off and they could almost put down every incident type on the report. :lol:
Quote from: CFS_Firey on November 02, 2006, 06:13:05 PM
QuoteMFS: RESPOND Tree Down 01/11/06 10:53,DRUIDS AV,MT BARKER, MAP 172 L 6 ,,TREE DOWN AT MT BARKER SWIMMING POOL - ON POWER LINES AND MAY HAVE DAMAGED LPG BULLET- P1 - FROM STAFF - 0437 384 371,72120 1279*CFSRES:
That's the only call they were paged for in Mt Barker - it would explain the BA set with no fire...
that must of been it.
and 2090 i got no idea...maybe things are done differently with BA seats. Might just be a precaution. Was just being curious no need to get snarly.
I have seen pictures from USA of ff with BA on and charged hose lines at rcr's
Quote from: Camo on November 02, 2006, 09:59:02 PM
Quote from: CFS_Firey on November 02, 2006, 06:13:05 PM
QuoteMFS: RESPOND Tree Down 01/11/06 10:53,DRUIDS AV,MT BARKER, MAP 172 L 6 ,,TREE DOWN AT MT BARKER SWIMMING POOL - ON POWER LINES AND MAY HAVE DAMAGED LPG BULLET- P1 - FROM STAFF - 0437 384 371,72120 1279*CFSRES:
That's the only call they were paged for in Mt Barker - it would explain the BA set with no fire...
that must of been it.
and 2090 i got no idea...maybe things are done differently with BA seats. Might just be a precaution. Was just being curious no need to get snarly.
Snarly? Just suggesting that all BA seats are about is different stowage of the same equipment, hence the use of the equipment does not change just because it is stowed diferently. Mind you Police Rescue has enough trouble using RCR gear with their belt and side arm on, let alone with a BA set on :-P
QuoteMind you Police Rescue has enough trouble using RCR gear with their belt and side arm on, let alone with a BA set on
Huh?
Your previous answer did come across as snarly... Camo wasn't the only one that noticed it ;)
In other states, the Police Rescue Squad operate as RCR response in some areas.
Quote from: CFS_Firey on November 03, 2006, 04:56:01 PM
QuoteMind you Police Rescue has enough trouble using RCR gear with their belt and side arm on, let alone with a BA set on
Huh?
Your previous answer did come across as snarly... Camo wasn't the only one that noticed it ;)
:| Sorry... Just thought it was an odd question. Ill get back in my box.
Do the older style MFS appliances (volvo) have BA seats in them?
Yes, depending how old though? Victor just got a refurb Volvo FL7 with BA seats a first for that station, that appliance would be an early 90's one i think.
All re-furbed appliances are being fitted with BA seats from the FL7's to the newer appliances.
the type2's should have them put in also. Who does BA seats, Moores or MFS engineering?
Like i said you will never fit a BA seat in a dual cab Isuzu.
MFS engineering fit BA seats to their appliances.
Moores can fit BA seats, they just put some in a single cab Isuzu for a mine as it has enough room behind the seat in a single cab for the cylinder to fit.
Why not just give all EMA brigades a Scania...problem Solvered :lol:
Quite a big cost difference to an Isuzu type 2 though. Can only streth the $$ so far.
not just for EMA brigades, all of them.
4x4 Scanias - how many trucks we got? 300 something?
say $500,000 each x 350 = 175000000
hell why not sounds like fun.
Im sure with that many we could probaly get the price down further too :wink:
Cam,just move a MFS satelite station to compton.....
nah red just doesnt match my uniform oh fashion dramas! :-D
Ok then CFS will get yellow Scanias :-P or white depending on the brigades fasion sense.
BA seats would speed things up but I went to an alarm the other day no fire but between the 2 brigades we had 5 BA operators prettymuch ready to go within 30-60 seconds of being there. Which gives the rest of the crew time to get some hose out.
Is SA the only state that use BA seats????? have not seen them anywhere else...
Quote from: 5271rescue on November 19, 2006, 04:43:47 PM
Is SA the only state that use BA seats????? have not seen them anywhere else...
Bill, was just in Melbourne and had a look ot some of their (MFB) trucks and they have them also
All states have ba seats in most paid fire service pumpers.
BA seats have been in fire appliances for years, look at DENNIS. You think SA would be the first to think of BA seats in pumpers, they don't even know how to build their own pumpers let alone be the forefront for new things.
were the forefront in AUS to have PBI.
u mean some of you have PBI.... lol
were still in dark ages :roll:
LOL at the rate PBI is arriving You would think that it was comming on horse and cart.
CFA gave PBI the flick
CFA were trialling PBI and nomex werent they? What are they sticking with their proban and woolen coats?
Was at Mildura station the other day and only Proban and Nomex on the racks with bunker coats.
S/O mentioned that PBI was going to be tested again soon
I believe there is a difference of opinion between what the CFA hierarcy wants to purchase and what the UFU wants the firies to have...
Quote from: filtered on November 24, 2006, 04:26:27 PM
I believe there is a difference of opinion between what the CFA hierarcy wants to purchase and what the UFU wants the firies to have...
Correct - but lets not let things get too off topic :wink:
One day our service will get the standard BA seats when we are recognised as an equal to our paid counterparts :roll: