How does everyone get on the appliances at your respective brigades? I mean this in terms especially of persons who are not trained in the specialist disciplines of RCR/BA/Hazmat. Does everyone just jump on the truck? Do you wait and have a crew selected by the OIC? Do those untrained people get on the truck before those who are trained? Do they wait?
Hi,
In our brigade we take the following to incidents normally.
BA - Minimum 2 BA, more the better. House fire or the like 4 BA normally.
HAZMAT - Full 6 crew of trained personell
RCR - 5 trained RCR (includes OIC) + 1 non trained
Sam
Sam, does that mean you wait until 2 BA Operators are on the truck before letting any non-BA people on, or everyone hops on when they are geared up, and gets kicked off if a more qualified person comes?
What an interesting topic
I have seen it before where, untrained personnel get on appliances before trained personnel cos, they think they can, and I have also seen them respond and see an incident turn pear shape.
I think it needs to be at the discretion of the OIC, and ultimately he or she is responsible. I make sure before I leave that I have the crew that I want and the crew I will need to do the specific task. We need to mix appliance personnel up with skilled personnel and unskilled personnel, this is the only way they will learn. It should not matter if it is a grassy, MVA, Domestic, HAZMAT etc. And if you are a multi-appliance station it will always work in your favour anyway, as you usually will be able to get more than enough personnel you require to assist in the operations of the incident as you will role more than one appliance. I do not think that you can not just keep them off the appliance as they will lose enthusiasm and eventually leave the system. Remember it's all about teamwork. But rule of thumb: 2 CABA to a grassy, MVA(in case of fire) three or four operators to a domestic: but always try to have at least two caba operators to any job incase you are reponded to something else
Best system I have seen so far i Happy Valley. Key tag system on your helmet, when your approach the truck from the passenger side you give you tag to the OIC or Senior person on back who is standing at the door. Each persons tag is different coloured in respect to their qualifications. You pick your driver, all officers and seniors had BA so wasn't a problem. Officers had yellow tags, seniors red, BA was blue, and fire fighter without BA was white. So quite simply the OIC could have a quick look and see 3 or 4 blue tags and drop the Key Tag holder and go.
In regards to RCR some people go a bit over board with having exactly 5 qualified operators. If you have 3 pref 4 operators grab someone who is not trained and go. Get the truck there instead of waiting forever. If you need more people for an extended extracation get a group car or another brigade appliance on the road, or swallow your pride and get another RCR brigade. When CFS wake up to themselves and train all fire fighters in an RCR brigade in RCR we wont have this problem......
at Naracoorte we try and get caba members on the pumper and rcr members on rescue at times we may only have during the day 3 caba or rcr members so we will roll and the crew will be mixed up with trainned and untrainned members.It all get's back to your brigade area and training,we have a great training program here all members are invoved in caba/hazmat/rcr,they may not have the paper work but know what to do.Other than CABA we would use members to do other task's as part of the team...TEAM WORK......
For any firecall that requires Kalangadoo 34 respond it's who ever gets down there from the time paged to when our fire siren is set off are the personnel who respond no questions asked
Yeah we dont have the luxury of picking and choosing most of the time.
But when it comes to a CABA job then obviously a BA trained person has priority over a no BA person.
Pretty simple in our brigade though....standard rolling time is 8-10 mins. If no one else is there within the 10mins mark you know they aint coming!
Quote from: ltdan on June 22, 2006, 02:39:39 AM
What an interesting topic
I think it needs to be at the discretion of the OIC, and ultimately he or she is responsible. But rule of thumb: 2 CABA to a grassy, MVA(in case of fire) three or four operators to a domestic: but always try to have at least two caba operators to any job incase you are reponded to something else
lt dan has a good point however we roll with what we roll with especially during the day, if we have the luxury of picking and choosing we do it this way but if there are four of you there and its during the day its highly unlikely that you will get anybody else. Our general turn around for calls is anywhere from 4 - 8 minutes.
Dont you need to respond in 6 minutes otherwise the call is defaulted to another brigade?
In my brigade its first there first go, unless we need more BA but most of the time we are on the road within 3-6 Min's with 6 members.
PF - You need to acknowledge the page within 6 minutes. You only get defaulted if MFS or SOC don't hear anything from you within 6 minutes.
Pf,you have to acknowledge the page with in 6 Min's,other wise its a default...
So someone just gets on the radio and tells SHQ they got it etc.
How does the rostering system work at brigades like Mt Barker? Do you still turn up if you are not rostered on but are available? Do they kick you off the truck? I have heard that a particular brigade in region 2 wont let you ride the 1st truck if your not on the duty crew even if you are first one there.
i was gonna say the same thing backburn as its exactly the same situation here with first down station first to get on truck unless CABA is needed
When ever there is only 2 crew at the shed and no driver the OIC which is most senior fire fighter there activates the station siren which tends to pull in a full crew most of the time
In our brigade, we use coloured cow tags on a keyring.
Each firefighter has one or more tags with their name and crew number depending on their qualifications:
Yellow = firefighter
Red = CABA
Green = HAZMAT
Blue = RCR.
Obviously if you're a BA operator, you only have a red tag, not a yellow and red.
But if you're BA, HAZ and RCR you have
Red + Green + Blue. But at the moment we don't have any green tags because we haven't been able to get hold of any.
At the front of each appliance we have a board with hooks on it. One labelled driver, one OIC and then how ever many seats are left over depending on the appliance.
24P = 7
34 = 6
14 = 3
Before you jump on the truck you clip your tag on the board, which makes it easy for the OIC to see how many of what trained personell they have on board.
It also lets the control room staff know who is on the repsonding appliance.
Generally, depeding on the call, trained personell have first preference. For example if responded to a house fire, BA operators have first preference on 24P - the first responding appliance. However, we will not hold up the truck waiting for anymore than 4 operators on the first appliance, so we fill it up with non BA. BA operators who rock up just after will follow with the remaining crew on the second truck.
Basically, we try to get as many trained personell specific to the call on the first aplliance and what ever room is left over is filled with non-trained personell.
In doing this it also encourages people to undertake specialist training - which we all need more of - so that they get preferences on appliances. Very rarely do we leave many people behind, we try to get everybody who rocks up out to the job and try to be fair to everyone.
We can usually have the first truck out the door in 4 - 8 minutes depending on the time of day and available crew etc.
The second appliance usually follows 1 - 2 minutes later, depending on numbers and type of call as above.
You have to have BA to be HAZMAT.. so if you are HAZMAT why not carry just GREEN, and if RCR also, GREEN and BLUE ??
Quote from: P F on June 22, 2006, 07:58:17 PM
So someone just gets on the radio and tells SHQ they got it etc.
Not quite, you ring either MFS comcen or SOC to aknowledge... You can do it via radio but only to SOC. It depends where the page comes from.
Quote from: Toast on June 21, 2006, 07:14:33 PM
How does everyone get on the appliances at your respective brigades?
personally i open the door and then pull myself up...
since we are just a general BA brigade, we roll toany call with whatever crewwe get (so long as we have sufficient experience on board)...
and for any "BA" call, make sure we have 2 BA operators.... if we dont have two BA operatorsd we will still go mobile,but advise the GO we are short BA crew then it is there responsibility to respond an extra crew or wear any 'kickback' that may occur...
PF - you have 6 minutes to acknowledge the page... the person acknowledging the page must keep in mind that in doing so, they take responsibility for tyhe fact that a fire truck WILL ROLL to the cakll, withsufficent crew in a reasonable time frame...
so do so WITH CARE...................................
Quote from: strikeathird on June 22, 2006, 11:11:39 PM
You have to have BA to be HAZMAT.. so if you are HAZMAT why not carry just GREEN, and if RCR also, GREEN and BLUE ??
So, Im not the only one thinking that then!
hehe... Well i just figured it would reduce the rainbow of keytags !
I read some people waiting for 6 to turn up... Personally, and i know it depends on the job, but i think 5 is a fairly effective response... however.. have people thought of taking 5 and leaving some for additional trucks ? Also, not taking more than required yellow hats, waiting that extra few seconds for some firerys, and leaving the yellow for an additional response / truck ??
Your thuoghts..
The tag system is a good idea, but I have found out of the years that good officers know what each crew member can and can't do
We have looked at the tag system but we know whos on the appliance and who as what(caba,rcr,haz) and all our pegs have names on them of members...As for calling mfs we do it via radio to socc that way they also know we have had a call via the mfs.....
QuotePF - you have 6 minutes to acknowledge the page... the person acknowledging the page must keep in mind that in doing so, they take responsibility for tyhe fact that a fire truck WILL ROLL to the cakll, withsufficent crew in a reasonable time frame...
You are right. Anyone can acknowledge the page, whether it be Captain on his/her portable at home or be it waiting for someone to get to station. SOCC just need to know the page did get to the intended recipient, after that it is up to Brigade/GCC to initiate other Brigades if their own cannot roll. If no acknowledgment is received at SOCC, it is then up to them to initiate contingencies.
I've heard of some brigades where crews wait next to the truck, and the OIC selects what crew he wants - probably a way to ensure the right expertise is on the truck. From what everyone is saying though it sounds like most brigades let everyone jump on the truck, then shuffle around until the expertise is there?
Most of the time the OIC will select a crew before they leave the station and it should if possable be a crew that has the skills to do the job..... but if you dont have the skills we go with what you have.....
According the the Chief Officers Standing orders
Recieveing and Responding to Incident Calls SOP 2.3
A Crew is minimum of four
And i think you will find that if you are responded by MFS that you only have 4 minutes to respond to the call or it defaults and if you are responded by SOC it is 6 minutes before it defaults.
Isn't it 4xBA when going into MFS area? / EMA ?
I believe its Rescue as well for EMA Strikethird..
Quote from: rescue5271 on June 23, 2006, 08:25:01 AM
We have looked at the tag system but we know whos on the appliance and who as what(caba,rcr,haz) and all our pegs have names on them of members...As for calling mfs we do it via radio to socc that way they also know we have had a call via the mfs.....
They also have a big screen that all response pages (CFS/MFS/Station Decoder) come up on. They know whats happening before you get to the station ;)
CFS Rescue trucks going into MFS areas need to have a minimum crew of rescue trained personel. Any other trucks going into MFS area have to have at least two BA crew, as per the EMA agreement.
AAAH but why bother following those rules when we dont follow our own SOPs.....
I'd suggest that most of us do. We usually follow a 4 person min, 3 RCR min, 2 BA min. Were not THAT bad as a service are we?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :?mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sure we follow SOPS...
Im sure some try...
:wink:
Well may be a little....but we do try dont we?????
Why follow all of the rules for the EMA when the MFS dont follow them.
mmmmmmmm,so how many firefighter should be on a MFS appliances?? was in the city other week and two apliances only had 3 per appliances????
Depends on the appliance... there are 4 per crew on pumps and the heavy rescue... 2 on HAZMAT/BA and aerial, not sure but i think that the skyjets are 4 per crew.... 2 per ROSA?
surely someonw else can confirm...
Rescue5271 - MFS pumps are not allowed to respond to jobs with three people on board, if a firey is sick or unable to work then they will recall another person and take that truck offline until they have a full compliment. A couple of fireys are rostered on each shift to fill in the gaps and ensure they have a full compliment.
If there are trucks getting around with three on board I think the Union would hit the roof, maybe you saw one of the training trucks getting around at the moment with the new recruits.
QuoteDepends on the appliance... there are 4 per crew on pumps and the heavy rescue... 2 on HAZMAT/BA and aerial, not sure but i think that the skyjets are 4 per crew.... 2 per ROSA?
Medevac, the ROSA normally responds with one, if it's the CBR truck from HQ it normally goes with just the on-call CBR officer. The ROSA at Largs North is driven by the Marine Officer. Skyjets are crewed with four.
ok well that could be it...
cheers HR