I have unfortunately been summoned to appear at the Black Tuesday Coronial.
I have mentioned to my manager on many occasions that I will be absent and am at the court's beck and call. I have no choice in the situation. I am expected to possibly be on the stand for up to 5 days.
I understand that this is a length of time that is unproductive for my employer. She cited our Emergency Response Policy in that it's only for an emergency that I can leave without penalty or have to take leave.
Does anyone think that it's reasonable/unreasonable that I am now expected to take leave to appear?
:?
I would call your regional office or state HQ today and find out your legal position. There hopefully should be some protection for those who are required by law to attend.
I will PM you some info..
Check you PM and email..
thanks Firefrog...one on the way back to you ...
out of curiosity, is this still a CFS issue? Wouldn't this be the same as jury duty, or something?
Quote from: CFS_firey on April 03, 2006, 12:42:54 PM
out of curiosity, is this still a CFS issue? Wouldn't this be the same as jury duty, or something?
I would expect that it could be...it has been referred back to the coroner's aid for some assistance...
I would like to think that we aren't penalized any further than we currently are by having to take personal leave to appear...it's not like we have any choice in the appearance...which would make it like jury duty..
Contact the VFBA as they are the one's that are there for the Volunteer members.Do you still get paid for being on the stand??? I wish you all the best be strong and tell it as you did see it on that day/night....
Quote from: rescue5271 on April 03, 2006, 07:34:12 PM
Contact the VFBA as they are the one's that are there for the Volunteer members.Do you still get paid for being on the stand??? I wish you all the best be strong and tell it as you did see it on that day/night....
Thanks Rescue...I am in constant contact with Wendy and she is doing a fantastic job...I will still be paid to be on the stand but they are trying to make me take Personal leave which is deducted from my sick leave...
The process is one that I wouldn't wish on any firefighter...it looks like I will be appearing in Adelaide so, if anyone wants to come and watch, they are most welcome. It's not a pretty sight though..
i reckon we should fill the court room with fireys, then lets see how courages they are at 2nd guessing split second decisions :evil:
best of luck bud! :wink:
Goodluck CaptCom. ~ All the best.
I will try and post the dates of when I'm appearing...they are very bad at scheduling witnesses and I don't have a current date..but am hoping that it will be sometime in May..
Would be keen to see some firies in the courtroom supporting me.. :-D
Im sure a few of us will be willing to throw on a dress uniform or alike and come for support.
PM me with the dates if/when you find out.
Good luck Captcom, hope you do'nt have to spend too much time in the waiting room before appearing. Since you have to come across the Gulf for it I also hope they are putting you up well, point out to them that the Hilton is just across the Square......
thanks guys, it all helps to know that I have a huge support group behind me..even though I will be out of my own territory..
the coroner's court is apparently on Carrington St...near King William...don't know if that's anywhere near the Hilton...but they will definitely have to be paying for the whole holiday..
the waiting will be the killer (as if it hasn't already!) I was due to appear on 15th Dec...last year..hopefully, when they get me over there it won't result in too much more waiting...might pack my golf clubs.. :-D
102 King William rings a bell ...
Like I said, pm me when u know times etc etc.. .. :)
Why has the case been moved to the big smoke???? yep let me know if I can pop in I will
yeah i thought it was being held in the port lincoln footy club?
Quote from: rescue5271 on April 04, 2006, 05:19:04 PM
Why has the case been moved to the big smoke???? yep let me know if I can pop in I will
The inquest is being moved back to Adelaide basically because the lawyers (and the coroner) are sick of being over here...the coronial has already gone 2x as long as it was proposed...and if it's finished by Sept/Oct it will be surprising.
It's currently being held in PL Racecourse convention centre, so at times it has to be vacated to accommodate race meetings. I have heard that it's costing $400k/wk for it to be here...not sure if that's true but I would expect at least $200k... :-o
thats how much one hot day can cost. Good luck captcom!
Quote from: probie_boy on April 05, 2006, 08:31:49 AM
thats how much one hot day can cost. Good luck captcom!
Yeah, you're right but they've already been here for 14 weeks...= 98 days...which equals $5.6million...that would mean a few bad fires in our budget :-D
Well all the best and i hope they are not too hard on you...
God thats alot of money !
Think of the infrastructure and equipment that could have been purchased with that !!
Quote from: strikeathird on April 06, 2006, 10:31:06 AM
God thats alot of money !
Think of the infrastructure and equipment that could have been purchased with that !!
Yes, and what's worse is that no good will come out of the whole process...it's currently proving to be very destructive for all those involved...community, victims and CFS...it's nothing but a finger pointing exercise and with many trying to point to CFS...
finger pointing is very destructive for sure, it will be alot harder for brigades to attract and retain members if they're going too cop a rap for trying too help. :-(
or next big fire send out those lawyers and inquirie people and tell em to put it out. :evil:
Quote from: Sternzee on April 06, 2006, 11:24:47 AM
finger pointing is very destructive for sure, it will be alot harder for brigades to attract and retain members if they're going too cop a rap for trying too help. :-(
or next big fire send out those lawyers and inquirie people and tell em to put it out. :evil:
We have already taken a couple on a controlled burn (mind you they were our lawyers) and now they want to be vollies.... :-D
Most of it is too complex for them to understand and we are spending a lot of time trying to explain how we work to them! :x
LIke I said mate... altho there is little that can be done in the way of support at the moment... WHen you know when its going to be over here ill be happy to sit in on the proceedings for some moral support !
Im sure there will be a few others that will come too.
roger...as soon as I have something definite..I will post it
yeah mate, i'll come along if it doesn't interfere with school. respect to a brother!
Isn't society funny, although black tuesday was a horrific day for the communities and the CFS we could do all the good in the world and get the odd thanks for it but as soon as it looks like something went wrong you get turned on, wether it's something major like that or something minor within you local community. :cry:
But i guess it's a way for the people who lost loved ones and their lively hoods to deal and try and get over this.
Good Luck on the stand CaptCom hope all goes well. :-)
hello fellow firies..
I've just been given a new appearance date of May 8 in Adelaide...not sure if it's in the coroner's court or the Federal yet.
I doubt that it will be then but maybe a week later...I will keep you all posted as soon as I know.
rescue...tell your mate he doesn't have very good sources for his info...not as good as yours anyway.. :-D
Well all the best mate and give us a buzz and let me know how it all goes. I shall let that person know and see what he says.....
All the best CaptCorn - hopefully the process won't be too much of a burden!
It would be nice to think that CFS may put together a paper on the lessons learned from this process - both the process in the coroners court (what can, will or could happen and how they operate) and also a rap up on proceedings and the lessons to be learned by all of CFS (and other agencies)
Would prevent Chinese whispers and the typical CFS grape vine (yea I know ...... dreaming now) but also allow those who have been through the process to put it behind them and not have to keep reliving the stories as curious members ask.
thanks oz fire...unfortunately, I am unable to say anything good about the process and would relish an opportunity to publish something when it's over.
At least now that some of us are appearing in Adelaide, it will give you guys an opportunity to see what it's really like..
I'm expecting/have been warned that I will be on the stand for up to a week...so there should be ample time for other vollies to come and watch the battle.
As for chinese whispers..they are human nature unfortunately..I have had this conversation from rescue..someone he knew said it wasn't moving...
Quote from: CaptCom on April 20, 2006, 10:25:45 AM
thanks oz fire...unfortunately, I am unable to say anything good about the process and would relish an opportunity to publish something when it's over.
Maybe someone in CFSHQ can grab this opportunity and will hopefully publish something - to aid everyone - both in the future should it occur again and also to let everyone know exactly what does occur and why - may be the eye opener some people need and make them 'take five'
Yeah sure oz-fire,can't see that happing....
Maybe someone in CFSHQ can grab this opportunity and will hopefully publish something - to aid everyone - both in the future should it occur again and also to let everyone know exactly what does occur and why - may be the eye opener some people need and make them 'take five'
Quote
I wish it would be that simple oz fire...those who wish to work outside of the SOP's and be cowboys, probably will always do that ....UNLESS they are actually summoned to the coroner's court themselves...otherwise most will be saying that it won't happen to them.. we are finding that this attitude is happening around here but more "it won't happen to us AGAIN..and not this soon!"
May 8 in Adelaide at 2.15pm was the last information I was given...this date and time seems to be firming as a definite.
The witness prior to me can only appear next week because his lawyer is only available then.
They are talking about the Federal Court in 3 Angas St.
Will keep you all posted.
NOW it's getting scary...it's actually getting close! :-o
Quote from: CaptCom on April 26, 2006, 08:26:06 AM
May 8 in Adelaide at 2.15pm was the last information I was given...this date and time seems to be firming as a definite.
The witness prior to me can only appear next week because his lawyer is only available then.
They are talking about the Federal Court in 3 Angas St.
Will keep you all posted.
NOW it's getting scary...it's actually getting close! :-o
http://portlincoln.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?story_id=475560
has some info about it. Yep keep us informed. And good luck!
If I have learnt nothing in this whole process Darius...DON'T rely on the media to report any of it accurately...and that includes our local paper!!
The media are all over it at the moment..waiting for the next witness to appear...we are definitely getting to the pointy end of the stick!
All the best for the day(s) that you are there hope all goes well,you are right about the media they only show/say what they think is correct. mind you they still get it wrong with the simple things in life and when there is good news to report its short and sweet but when its bad news they drag it out........................
May 8 @ 2.15pm at Coroner's Court, which is on 302 King William St.
This date and time is now quite firm (well as firm as I've ever seen it in this process)
I have been told to expect to be on the stand for at least 3 days.
If anyone decides to come and take a look at me being pummeled by the lawyers...I unfortunately, am unable to speak to you at any point during the day.
As a witness, we are prohibited to speak to anyone who may be seen to be coaching or giving advice, as a result, they don't allow us to talk to anyone but the SPAM team. Our lawyer isn't allowed to say much to us once we on the stand either.
I will know that you are there but can't do much more than that - BUT I will be appreciative of your support. :-)
I would have thought lawyers could give advice and talk to you.
Disgraceful that this has all ended up in court. Good luck Captcom.
good luck captcom, remember, even if those lawyers treat ya like crap, the rest of us respect ya!
I say lets all get together after the case and have a few beers and see if we can offer some support..
Quote from: rescue5271 on April 27, 2006, 08:36:50 PM
I say lets all get together after the case and have a few beers and see if we can offer some support..
Sounds like a good idea to me.... :-D
I would gladly catch up with you all for a few beers and swap war stories...or at least listen someone else's for a change! There is a pub about 2 doors down from where I will be staying..can't remember the name, near cnr Pultney and Angas.
I have been advised by my lawyer to submit a supplementary statement..basically, write a really long story about everything so that the other lawyers can't ask me about it..and we can say it's on Page ? paragraph ? ...great idea but means I have to relive the whole experience again..oh, and have it done by next week!
The only advice I can give any of you..if you EVER do IMT..make sure you take notes and give lots of specific details in the paperwork!
This kind of thing and the politics is the kind fo thing that makes me not want to go any further than a Senior Firefighter with CFS. (maybe might try and be a lieutenant but thats my limit.)
PF: it does not matter if your a snr firefighter or a group officer we can all end up on the stand. I think the long and short of this is going to be are we going to be able to (a) keep members who have been on the stand (b) will new people want to join once they see what has been going on???
Yeah I know, but prefer to stay away from the politics and stuff. This wont be good to recruit members to the CFs as they might think that every fire will be like this and might deter them.
You are both right but I've been a firey for 19 years and this is the first time it's happened (first for any CFS vollie I think), so the chances aren't high (thank goodness!)of it happening.
Rescue you are right..it's not just been officers that have been called ..it's just that more pressure and expectations fall on the shoulders of the officers or those in IMT.
BUT if the process was taken out of the Coroner's Court as it's been recommended in the COAG report...it wouldn't be this ugly or wasted time spent on educating the lawyers on how we work.
Im hoping that i never have to give evidence or a statement before the coroner's court as a result of a large fire happening :-(
Not only would it be nerve racking but also would damage my reputation as a volunteer fire fighter if camera crews asked questions that i didnt answer
Not only would it be nerve racking but also would damage my reputation as a volunteer fire fighter if camera crews asked questions that i didnt answer
Quote
That's easy Robert...we don't speak to the media...especially in these situations! You will see footage of me walking to the court and leaving (hopefully!) and we don't even give them the courtesy of a "no comment"
hi guys,
You have all probably seen the articles in the Advertiser in the last week.
They couldn't be further from the truth...and any reference to a Capt being in charge is about me..the DGO on the stand is my mentor and has great faith in my abilities..
Bring on next week..can't wait to see what headliners the media can find in my testimony!
Still looking at Monday 8th @ 2.15pm at Coroner's Court, 302 King William St.
yeah, will be interesting to see what they can twist out of your story!
wow, what a day...first they told me to prepare to appear in PL this week and then move to Adelaide...and then not in PL only in Adelaide starting monday...this is what makes it really hard!
anyway, I'm now staying at the Director's Studio Apartments on Gouger st.
starting in court on Monday at 2.15pm.
and the biggest win for today was my manager having to back down on my having to take leave to appear...she had a visit from the lawyers...yay.. :-D
a minor victory!
Hi Everyone,
Just a quick note to let you know that I won't be able to access the internet next week...so any contact with me, will need to be via my mobile..or I'll see you in court! :-D
crikey.... we better hurry up and arrange if were all going to catch up for those 'support drinks' then....!
You can get my mobile number from ksj...I'll give her permission to give it out..rather than post it here for all to see.
well I went along this afternoon to observe. It was quite an eye opener. Saw Captcom start her evidence. She handled it really well (I reckon). I now understand her comment somewhere in this thread about "wasted time spent on educating the lawyers on how we work"!
I must say I can't see how anyone apart from the legal fraternity is going to benefit from this. I highly recommend anyone who can to drop in for a while.
Don't look up 302 King William St in whereis.com.au because it tells you it's near Grenfell St which it's not. It's the Coroners Court between Angas and Carrington Streets (southern corner of Vic Square). It's pretty casual for visitors, no problems to drop in anytime and sit for a while.
It sounds like it's going to be sitting from 10am - 4:30pm except maybe with an early knock-off fridays (it's tough being a lawyer!). It also sounded like there was the possibility it might move to another larger court at some stage.
Quote from: Darius on May 08, 2006, 10:04:29 PM
It sounds like it's going to be sitting from 10am - 4:30pm except maybe with an early knock-off fridays (it's tough being a lawyer!). It also sounded like there was the possibility it might move to another larger court at some stage.
god, I spend more time at school, and I don't get paid! :-D
IM doin work experience doing the same work with a mchanic who is prolly getting about $600 this week and am getting none! not fair!
:-P
PF,sound like you may need to get a life......JOKE
Quote from: P F on May 09, 2006, 05:22:14 PM
IM doin work experience doing the same work with a mchanic who is prolly getting about $600 this week and am getting none! not fair!
:-P
ahh well lifes not fair.
:lol:
They deserve all the money they get cause they all do a damn good job. Ya know mechanics have to supply their own tools and toolbox etc. One bloke there has a toolbox, just a box that is worth 5000.
(it was a joke what I said by the way, hence the :p)
Sorry to drag this off topic.
mm... but apprentices do get the new tool allowance, helps alot.
Remember Do Not HiJack The Thread As This Is About Having To Appear.
So does anyone know how the case is going as I have not seen or read anything in the news about it...
Hi Guys,
I can give you an update...thanks for coming Darius..it has been good to see some friendly faces in the gallery.
so far I have completed my evidence in chief..conducted by counsel assist. I would describe it like a boxing match...plenty of dodging, weaving and fending of punches...with the occasional punch given! It is very tiring and if I was asked to describe it in a word...intense.
Unfortunately for me, proceedings hit a pothole late last week...my lawyer is also representing my DGO1 who was on before me...anyway, I recalled a conversation that we had..he doesn't..a conflict has occurred...my evidence has now been interupted...1 of us had to elect to find a new lawyer..he had to approve me continuing with ours, he didn't ...I now have a new lawyer and have to fly to Adelaide on Sat to brief her and hope to resume late next week and finish!
so...you all now have another opportunity to come and see the proceedings...as Darius said, it's easy to enter the court at any time.
Court usually commences at 10am..breaks at 11.30-12..then 1-2.15 and finishes at 4.30pm. Doesn't sound like they sit much but believe me...when you are sitting in the box concentrating so fiercely...you are glad to stop occasionally.
Wendy Shirley, Jill Scott, Trudy Whelan and Ray Dowd have been doing an outstanding job of providing support for me and making sure my social calender is full in the evenings.. :-D
Hope to see some of you... I will post as soon as I know more..
Now thats a real kick in the donkey CaptCom it seems like you wont be on DGO1's good list because of that conflict you had with him over a conversation that you heard him say but he didnt remember saying it
I wish i could come up there and observe proceedings but im stuck with other obligations such as looking for work and keeping up to date with my rent
Thankfully, I can respect his decision...it was difficult to begin with but you need to appreciate that we've had NO control over any part of this whole event.
It may turn out to be a good thing yet..I now have a female barrister and I've been given a week or more to re-energise for the last quarter...it was very tiring and will be more prepared to finish next week than I would have been yesterday.
It was nothing personal from my DGO and I believe him when he tells me that it was the hardest decision he's had to make...he's got a very paranoid wife who believes that it's all a conspiracy to undermine his credibility...I can't expect him to choose my needs over his wife!
For your information.
Coroners Court sitting times and additional details are contained in the Sheriff's Court Cause List at http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/sheriff/cause_lists/index.html
This is updated each day. Just select the Coroner's Court on the left hand side of the website.
well i haven't seen much or any of you on the news so at the moment it's probably a good thing the wonderful media aren't ripping your story to shreds in front of the public.
Good luck with the new barrister and hope all goes well in the coming weeks :-)
Thankfully, the day I went to court was in the afternoon and only print media were present...then on Tuesday the cameras were there but we also had Gladstone and Beaconsfield...and I don't rate over them :-D
The local media are giving it the usual coverage...
http://www.portlincoln.yourguide.com.au/display.asp?class=news&subclass=local
your timing was pretty good captcom. Good luck in court again!
Let's hope my timing continues to be so good! :lol: