Rather than changing the topic in another thread AGAIN ;)
Why bother about having any of these services retained?
why not have the "place name" emergency service. 1 title that covers everything we do - dealing with emergencies!. It doesnt implicate we only deal with fires, or 'state wide' emergencies......
Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons. :roll:
That would simplify things. Two catergories:
Emergency Services and Law Enforcment - very simple!
Maybe thats how they should distribute the Emergency Services Levy - only to emergency services :evil:????????
Then you could have one combined - admin, CRD, Comms, mechanical, training, OH&S system - far out, all CRD done on Goodwood Road (SAAS) and mechanical at MFS Engineering and all training at Brukunga - what a grand idea!!!!!!
Then SAPol could keep their areas and the other 4+ services share joint/common facilities (I say 4+ because thers also VMR, Coast Gaurd, Mine Rescue and alike)
Yes, you could even call it SAFECOM.
I suppose the CFS has already made some steps to combine the services (Compared to some other states) With us doing Urban fire, rural fire, nearly all rescues, hazmat etc...
Someone said in the other thread that we shouldn't take on anything else unless we are good at what we already do, well why not have Rescue operators and Fire-fighters in the same service... there are people in my brigade that seem to have more of an interest in rescue than in fire, there's no reason why we couldn't have one service with people who specialize...
some brigades (rural and urban) have a hard enough time getting a crew together the way things are now... so if we start having brigades with people who only respond to certain jobs (thats the way i understand your msg CFS_firey), or only crew certain appliances... then whats going to happen???
Quote from: firetruck on August 11, 2005, 10:23:16 PM
some brigades (rural and urban) have a hard enough time getting a crew together the way things are now... so if we start having brigades with people who only respond to certain jobs (thats the way i understand your msg CFS_firey), or only crew certain appliances... then whats going to happen???
I think the premise would be that more people would be likely to volunteer if they were able to specialise. Also you'd have all of the involved agencies volunteers to call upon. How often have you heard a potential member say, "but I could never go to vehicle accidents", or an SES member say, "I could never fight bushfires". Paramedics attached to a fire service (ie: US) is an example of it working.
There are cities around the world the size of Adelaide looked after by volunteer fire/emergency services. And many roles are highly specialised.
Not advocating going wholly vollie - that would be silly. But there could be a single service with many roles? :-D
Quote from: kat on August 12, 2005, 08:16:43 AM
I think the premise would be that more people would be likely to volunteer if they were able to specialise. Also you'd have all of the involved agencies volunteers to call upon. How often have you heard a potential member say, "but I could never go to vehicle accidents", or an SES member say, "I could never fight bushfires". Paramedics attached to a fire service (ie: US) is an example of it working.
Exactly right! Thats not to say that we might not hear similar excuses even with a combined service, but we can hope :-)
Quote from: kat on August 12, 2005, 08:16:43 AM
Quote from: firetruck on August 11, 2005, 10:23:16 PM
some brigades (rural and urban) have a hard enough time getting a crew together the way things are now... so if we start having brigades with people who only respond to certain jobs (thats the way i understand your msg CFS_firey), or only crew certain appliances... then whats going to happen???
I think the premise would be that more people would be likely to volunteer if they were able to specialise. Also you'd have all of the involved agencies volunteers to call upon. How often have you heard a potential member say, "but I could never go to vehicle accidents", or an SES member say, "I could never fight bushfires". Paramedics attached to a fire service (ie: US) is an example of it working.
and the paramedics only ever get turned out to medical jobs and standbys at other incidents... you will never catch an ambo fighting a fire, so i dont see how that comment makes any sense, if anything it backs my statement, crews only responding to certain incidents and crewing certain appliances.
i dont think this comment of paramedics attatched to a fire servioce is applicable, in almost every instance of ambulances and fire trucks being in the one station (ie: US) i think you'll find the station has one name but is split into two "services" fire and EMS
however this would be an exampel of fire, rescue, USAR, HAZMAT, etc.. being roled into one service (FIRE), with ambulance working close by (EMS)
That's exactly what I meant by that example! One service with members who fulfill only specialist roles ie in Alex's words "crews only responding to certain incidents and crewing certain appliances". (Which I believe could work)
As you can see in this quote from the LAFD website, they refer to their paramedics as firefighter/paramedics but you're right - you won't see them in BA in a structure fire :-)
"A total of 1,038 uniformed Firefighters per Platoon Duty Shift (including 207 serving as Firefighter/Paramedics), remain on duty at 103 Neighborhood Fire Stations strategically located across the Department's 471 square-mile jurisdiction."
Cheers
Legislatively speaking a combined emergency service is quite possible and probable, and I like the concept (I've you haven't got that feeling from my preivous posts!)
As for Ambulance being involved, I'd say not likely. This is purely based on SAAS coming under the Department of Health and Health Ministry know instead of the Justice Portfolio.
I would like to see co-location between the Ambulance Service and other emergency services continue though, but I think some of the hassles that have come from a few MFS/SAAS station will end any further colocated stations and teams, in fact I believe that colocation of career staff and career stations won't exist in 10 years time!
I'd love to run a pole on combining all services, but the model base would have the be states to stop confusion about responses adn arguments like SES vollies responding to Fires and the like. One service for all doesn't have to mean everybody responds to every incident...
Hi there
James - when you say combining all services I assume you mean similar to the American system (Fire - Hazmat - Ambo - Rescue)
There are private organization within Australia which us this system ("Olympic Dam Emergency Services" & "Woomera Emergency Services") and it seems to work well.
Its like all services it also has its problems - one major issue it trying to keep up the skills ,being proficient in all areas of Emergency Response.
I personally could see the "financial" benefits of combining small rural areas which have both SES & CFS - an on a important issue may stop some of the power plays within small communities.
Again just my views - some may understand, others will swear and curse.
Thanks for reading
Wayne
Quote from: firetruck on August 13, 2005, 07:57:10 AM
Quote from: kat on August 12, 2005, 08:16:43 AM
Quote from: firetruck on August 11, 2005, 10:23:16 PM
some brigades (rural and urban) have a hard enough time getting a crew together the way things are now... so if we start having brigades with people who only respond to certain jobs (thats the way i understand your msg CFS_firey), or only crew certain appliances... then whats going to happen???
I think the premise would be that more people would be likely to volunteer if they were able to specialise. Also you'd have all of the involved agencies volunteers to call upon. How often have you heard a potential member say, "but I could never go to vehicle accidents", or an SES member say, "I could never fight bushfires". Paramedics attached to a fire service (ie: US) is an example of it working.
and the paramedics only ever get turned out to medical jobs and standbys at other incidents... you will never catch an ambo fighting a fire, so i dont see how that comment makes any sense, if anything it backs my statement, crews only responding to certain incidents and crewing certain appliances.
i dont think this comment of paramedics attatched to a fire servioce is applicable, in almost every instance of ambulances and fire trucks being in the one station (ie: US) i think you'll find the station has one name but is split into two "services" fire and EMS
however this would be an exampel of fire, rescue, USAR, HAZMAT, etc.. being roled into one service (FIRE), with ambulance working close by (EMS)
Alex, in the USA, there are some departments, quite a few being Vollie, where the Medical trained personell are also fire fighters, and they turn out with the truck, and do both jobs.
With declining Volunteer numbers in all parts of the state there is a need to join ses/mfs/cfs into a one service where members from these services can come under the one banner. Rural towns can no longer support ses/mfs/cfs there needs to be a better way so that all services can work under the banner. I have done a few trips of late spoken to members from cfs/ses in rural towns who work out of there own station but dont have the numbers to mann there appliances.They the Volunteers want to become one service(close ses) and transfer members and gear to CFS but the people up the chain will not let them??????
The problem with closing 1 of the services is that some animosity would be created. Hence the initial suggestion of effectively closing both services and creating the '' Emergency Service. '' being whatever town your in....
See it as a new service with no direct relationship to what would be the former services. Soounds a little pety i know, but a lot more people would feel less put out as such...
Personally, I would like to see the CFS and SES join to form one service. I feel that in the long run this would solve the many number of problems now being faced in smaller rural regions where the existence of the two services in one town is becoming harder and harder to support, especially those maintaining a volunteer SAAS also.
Initially, you might loose a few members who don't like the concept, but you will find that those people there for the right reasons will continue on. It would almost certainly nulify any CFS, SES competition between services and unite the common goals of both and multiply there effect significantly, thus providing an even better service for the community.
I even have a name, what about the "Country Fire and Rescue Service".
I know that this concept would not be applicable for all situations, but definately for the more rural regions and those having trouble supporting two services.
Personally, I think it's time all country services joined together to form one service, reduce duplication (numerous sheds, stations, vehicles, equipment, cars, training courses, facilities etc, etc, etc, etc)
As per my original post there are many towns across SA that have professional volunteers performing, fire, rescue, search, medical, retrieval and alike from a range of services from VMR, CFS, Coast Guard, SAAS, SES, Mines Rescue and alike.
These people are not effected by ministers, political parties or alike, they are affected by money limitations, training and what time they can committ to serving their community.
An umbrella service that provides all (bar law enforcement) from one building utilising multi skilled vehicles with appropriately trained crews (ie don't need to be a jack of all trades, rather a master of at least one) would suit most communities, provide better service to the public and remove the perceived or actual us and them. Plus with the monies saved, we could update allot of vehicles, refine our training to one standard, not many and allow people to have input where they feel they can - sorry for the common sense, but when you travel around Australia and Over seas and see the many differnet models and speak to the people doing it on the ground - WE have a long way to go.
OK - will get off my horse now and return to reality where people like to build silo,s have issues with other service or a new service providing their "traditional service" and where most of the decision makers are older, reluctant to change, were once practitioners - many, many many years ago and are waiting their time, their gold cards and to join the Pension ques :evil:
I had opertunity to ask the minister about that some time ago (so long... it was under a diferent government i think!) and it comes down to exactly what you say Oz..... to many people reluctant to change and the government dont want to tread on the toes of... sad really.
surely the time will come one day - more than likely later rather than sooner..... but we can hope.
nah... not "Country fire and Rescue", it woukld have to be something that actually says what we are.
"Volunteer Fire and Rescue" or "Volunteer Emergency Service"
I think Ambo's should stay separate as well... While they often come to our jobs, call numbers would spiral out of control if the "Volunteer Emergency Service" was being responded to everything bar law enforcement...
Perhaps having a paramedic on the rescue truck would work, but you wouldn't want to send the rescue truck to every broken arm / heart attack etc...
(Having the ambulance station in the same building is a different matter though, I'd fully support that)
Hi there
Well Mike you get my vote of approval - if we could combine the expertise and the dollars - we would have a great new service.
Wayne
I think half the problem is that those in that white place dont ask the people on the ground what they want,change is ahrd but it does work and we all need to give it ago.
As for a name,well SA VOLUNTEER FIRE AND RESCUE SERVICE SOUNDS GOOD..
No Joke, about 7 years ago I heard that CFS was considering changing it's name to SA Fire And Rescue Teams (SA FARTS!) Happy didn't happen!
Quote from: JamesGar on August 25, 2005, 10:20:20 PM
No Joke, about 7 years ago I heard that CFS was considering changing it's name to SA Fire And Rescue Teams (SA FARTS!) Happy didn't happen!
AAAAGGHH!!! That's terrible! It would be nice to have a name that reflected what we do though, so we might get less of "You mean you do more than fight bushfires?"... :)
Regardless of what our opinions are I can't see any radical changes like this occuring for a number of years now. I'd say we're up for a State election within the next 18 months, and I don't think any polly would like to try and table a large change this close. It would be at least a 5 year process and would initially cost a fair bit in property name changes, payout of redundant employees, signage....
I'd say SAAS wouldn't be apart of it either, now coming under Health Portfolio. I wouldn't want to cut back on co-location though.
Quote from: CFS_firey on August 24, 2005, 02:51:05 PM
I think Ambo's should stay separate as well... While they often come to our jobs, call numbers would spiral out of control if the "Volunteer Emergency Service" was being responded to everything bar law enforcement...
The ambos are vollies in a large amount of towns anyway so could be combined in one service in that specialised role???
Yes, good do sort of like america where the firies are ambo's aswell.
Quote from: kat on August 28, 2005, 11:42:24 AM
Quote from: CFS_firey on August 24, 2005, 02:51:05 PM
I think Ambo's should stay separate as well... While they often come to our jobs, call numbers would spiral out of control if the "Volunteer Emergency Service" was being responded to everything bar law enforcement...
The ambos are vollies in a large amount of towns anyway so could be combined in one service in that specialised role???
but then there would be two ambulance services in the one state... defeating the purpose..
there is however a CFS brigade that is a first responder (pseudo-ambulance??) Salt creek (region 3)... due to the lack of ambulance cover in the area, the brigade respond WITH sa ambulance for all medical emergencies... however i think the only first aid equioment they carry is a basic kit..
Think they've got a bit more than just the standard first aid kit. I believe they are set to carry oxygen, are trained in basic airway management and have an AED (Automatic Electric Defibrillator). I also believe most of the trained personel who are involved at Salt Creek also crew the ambulance at Meningie and have the full SAAS Certificate IV in Basic Emergency Care.
No need for two ambo services :-)
I was Salt Creek's GTO until our Brigade changed Groups two days ago :-(
I may be uninformed (maybe you know more Adam) but I doubt very much their crews have the Cert IV (although they train with Ambos every two weeks) and I am 99.9% sure they do not have defib. And I am not aware of any Salt Creek CFS members who crew the Meningie ambulance (it is 60km away). Maybe James you know someone down that way and can confirm otherwise? I will be talking to their BTO in the next few days so I will ask also :-)
The way their Captain explained it to me was that they attended low priority incidents, performed basic first aid and determined if ambulance necessary.
Salt Creek has Kingston and Meningie within a reasonable distance. There would definately be many more fire stations that had ambos much further away.
Some US models involve paramedics attending as part of the fire service and the "ambulance" is basically a transport company.
aaah kk, makes a lot of sense to carry an AED..
i dont know if the promotions site is the be asll and end all of info... btu doesnt sayu they carry anthing at all...
edit: and there doesnt seem to be any info anywhere...
I will ask some people what role salt creek have and will let you all know,but I did a AIIMS course not long ago and am sure that they said they did basic first aid and did carry o2 and where getting a defib unit, but I will find out
No station in the CFS has AED's, only place is the STC at Brukunga.
Hopefully the SAFECOM will remove some more duplication in admin, training & facilities for all services.
I have joined this website yesterday (22/11/2005) and am a SES volunteer in metro Adelaide. I have not fully read history of each forum yet.
But majority of the postings seem to be that the CFS history of Brigade management would be adopted. I could be wrong & would interested in reading comments.
From a volunteer Unit or Brigade management level, would CFS brigades be happy to give up some of their history in the way they operate. For example, in SES the Unit Managers are appointed, in CFS the brigade votes.
This is one example of the differences in heritage that would need to be resolved in any combination.
Personally, I believe the three SAFECOM organisations are too different to merge fully. I believe this was tried many years ago and failed.
Would a CFS brigade that merged with a SES Unit at volunteer management level accept that the ex-SES Unit Manager was appointed in charge of the new volunteer organisation ?
How would the amount of training each organisations volunteer members be assisted if we combined ? I am struggling to keep my six SES certificate qualifications valid and expand to new knowledge areas as is.
My suggestion would be to embrace the differences and continue the process to share facilities and recognise each organisations unique abilities via SAFECOM.
My thoughts & opinions only.
Andrew Mac
You are right Kat,
Salt Creek do not have a semi auto defib machine, they do carry oxygen and they do have more than a basic first aid kit. They don't have the Cert IV and are not part of the SAAS crew that respond from Meningie. They are all CFS vollies.
Adam.
You are correct adam,They have a very large first aid box's at the store that has more gear that what you would find in standard first aid box. The guys have not done any training with the ambos of late but there are plans to do this again soon,They have a brigade member who is a ambo and she is always able to help with there 02 update as well as first aid training. There are plans down the track for them to do CERT 5 and this covers auto defibs..
It would be good to see Kalangadoo CFS trained in SAAS Emergency Medical Care/Treatment, so if an emergency such as a major RCR or medical emergency occurs within Kalangadoo township and both Penola & Nangwarry SAAS crews are somewhere else the brigade members such as myself can respond and give treatment whilst waiting for IC paramedics from Millicent or Mount Gambier to arrive
Oh yeah does anyone know if i can do CERT IV in Basic Emergency Care at Mount Gambier Tafe or do i need to become a SAAS volunteer
Robert both penola/nang are after more volunteer ambos but once again you have to be in the area,as for cert5 I dont think the Mount is offering it but you can do it throu UNSA from flinders or adelaide uni.Once again your area has good coverage with SAAS vols/staff,sure your brigade can do more training in first aid but you will find that you need to get the group and region to back your application for the brigade to be a SAAS responder unit...
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