SA Firefighter

Ok,we have seen the gear and some brigades also took part in testing and selection of the new gear,but why than is it not for sale yet? Is it beacuse it is still being tested to meet AUST STANDARDS? I have contacted two companys that supply turnout gear and they have all said that it still does not meet AUST STAND and can not sell it till it passings all testing by end of March 05.

It sounds strange that Aus Standard approval would be pending due to SAMFS rolling out the gear for the last few months. I think CFS is still to make final decisions, but not sure why the delay. I know of one company that is ready to sell now.

I have tried on a set and it seems like great gear. Some minor flaws but nothing is perfect. If CFS signs up to the Lion maintenance contract then gear will be maintained professionally by Lion. Lets hope that happens.

I would love to hear any news on this. Anyone in the know?

Yep,I have spoken to 3 firms as of today and all have it in stock but have been informed not to sell it till March 05? One firm said that they where waiting on confirmation from AUST--STANDS before doing anything. I understand the contract is a good one and that all washing/maintance's on the gear is to be done by lion.

i have been told that if the gear is to be maintained by lion, then it must be drycleaned every time it needs it (which is apparently a three day turn around)

also the gear is possibly not that fantastic. if this is in fact the new SAMFS gear that ur talking about, then it is DEDICATED structural fire fighting clothing. ive heard that one MFS firefighter has already gone down with heat stress when he was infact just sitting on a monitor outside of a burning structure. what good is this going to be for rural incidents, or even VAs on warm or hot days???

We probably need someone really in the know to dispel any rumors, but I understand that there is now two kinds of gear wild fire and structural. The level 1,2,3 standards may be a thing of the past.

Having tried the Lion gear on - it is excellent! I welcome it's inclusion, there are small issues such as carrying rural gear and structural but a small inconvenience for the correct protection.

Heat stress can happen to anyone due to a very large number of factors the Lion gear cannot be blamed in isolation, all the factors would have to be looked at.  For structural work bulkier gear and more layers is better as it prevents rapid heat logging. Thin gear allows thermal radiation to build up fast and prematurely affect the user.

I can tell you that there will be 2 sets, Proban for rural, PBI Gold for structural. But I would like to see a nomex work shirt to bridge the gap, like SAMFS wear now, so we don't need to carry 2 sets of gear for rural work. I will be stuffed if I am gonna take a bag of gear with my proban and "bushwhacker helmet" in case we get a rural job or vise versa.

One thing that HQ or region should do is tell us what the hell we are supposed to do if we want level 3 gear now. We have tried purchasing the new stuff and been told its not gonna be ready until middle of the year, yet we can't get anything from FARA because their stuff is not Australian standards approved. So what do we do right now, we have new BA operators, and people who's current gear is had it. Any one heard what we are supposed to do?!

I think the idea of Lion maintaining the gear will be more of a hassle than a help...


For example,  if our gear gets dirty, do we have to send it to Lion to be cleaned??

cleaning is maintenance.....

So we as a Fire Fighter have to go 'offline' for the 3 or 4 days it takes to have our gear cleaned?  

Or do we have to buy 2 sets of the Lion gear as well to ensure this won't happen?


* Personally, this is why I think having Lion do all cleaning and maintenance is rather silly.  Repairs, etc... Fair enough - but im sure the Station Washing machine will suffice for this turnout gear..... - Becasue if I have to send my gear away everytime I want it washed............... It will be staying very dirty!

I think this  will only happen if CFS enter into a contract with LION, if not then its our problem, but I guess if its not done then we could have warranty issues.

I light of this, what do people think of this new gear.

We have been informed but suppliers that the gear will not be ready till later this year to the CFS due to on going problems,the MFS have been issued the gear as they can get it clean in a day when crews are off shift some country MFS station have two sets of the gear while the other set is getting cleaned. we did hear that direct sunlight was a problem with the gear and if that is the case what is direct flame and heat going to do????

Hi this is my first post, and just to clear up, I'm from NSW (please don't hold that against me)

My question is, has anyone heard the rumor that London FB got taken by Lion apparrel's dry cleaning? I head that it cost LFB 4 million pounds per year in dry cleaning. The garments are leased, so they basically have no choice but to do what Lion tell them-

Mark

Welcome Ferretboy. Pleased to have you aboard.

I don't know anything about the Lion contract (anyone with anything in writing please post!) but would be very interested to know the details including cost.

I am aware of organisations (that use protective overalls) getting into contracts that have proved to be expensive and ineffective. They involve a weekly cost regardless of what is actually picked up and laundered (and I've heard of people still taking them home to wash them theirselves becasue of erratic service.

Any fleshed out details of how this would work? Will it be pick up from station?

Some brigades have been trialing  the new level 3 gear.
But are they still using it :?:
Has any brigade purchased any  :?:
Is it that bad :?:

fire03rescue, the gear that brigades did have were trial only to work out what is the best gear, once the trial was over it was returned, also I know a lot of brigades have done fitting nights in anticipation of the contract starting. I am not aware of anyone having any.

In regards to saying is it that bad, I think we will reserve judgement to later, but the vollys did  the trial so they gave the input into the choice, Matt B's brigade was involved in the trial, ask him.

But a large number of brigades world wide use it and its probably the most advanced gear getting around, I think we should be glad that for once CFS is getting the top shelf equipment, I nearly fell over when the brand name of the gear was announced, I certainly wasn't expecting that quality.

ahhh... but can cfs afford top shelf equipment?

from what ive heard, no. (this is only what ive heard..)
and groups are being forced to pay for it, not he organisation???? :?: ????

Ummm let me think, where do the groups get there money from? Thats right CFS HQ, so really its is the CFS's money, the only time you could say that brigades are paying for it is if they use their actual fundraising money.

i said groups not brigades mate...

and CFS gives (allocates) money to the group, but you cant tell me that theyre giving enough to fit out a whole group with brand new gear and to pay for general equipment as well? (its just not possible as far as i can see) ive heard rumors that it may cost a minimum of $250,000 just to give everyone in  group one new set

At ~$1200 a set it will cost a fortune no matter how you look at it......

so... were talking approximately $1200 for the new lion gear, plus since they are trying to phase out our current NOMEX gear, we are going to be looking at an extra cost for new proban (rural) gear?

not sure what is going on here... couldnt there be the option to keep our current NOMEX as rural gear? until it is un-useable (is that a word???) then replace it with new proban.

hmm, i reckon i must be a bit behind the 8-ball.

Why would you phase out nomex and keep proban(ewww)????? That just doesnt seem right.

Anyways, our brigade is having measurments taken tonight, will let you all know if i hear anything interesting.......

Hi Mike please post your opinions of the gear, and any news on it's roll out. Any news is good news.
As for Nomex vs Proban I could not imagine any proban clothing returning to CFS. Proban an additive to the clothing washes out. NOMEX has it's properties in the fabric much like PBI Gold.

It is heartening that CFS has chosen top shelf gear for structural work. Can't wait to see what the rural gear will be.

Ahh, so it was just a passing comment!
I was worried for a second there, it crossed my mind that they were going to say we had to retain proban (once again EWWWW!!!)


All is good!

I have been told by region that we are only to purchase PBI Gold for structural and Proban from Stewart and Heaton for rural, Nomex has not been approved. We have tried to purchase nomex and have been warned not to, be nice if someone would give us an official document as to what the hell we are supposed to do!!!

thats what i have heard also, so it looks like is back to the old so called "level one" (proban overalls or two-piece{can anyone enlighten me??})...

for people who arent BA operators???

After much waiting I finally got measured for the new gear. I have to say it is quite comfortable to use, even if its a little heavier than nomex.  :D
There's a very good range of sizes as well.

Apparently no contract has been set down as to the maintenance yet. Although Lion are asking that they inspect it at least once a year. During the time that the gear is away they are investigation getting some of the MFS Nomex for interim use.

The answer they gave about cleaning of the gear was a little vague, but ran along the lines of "you can do it yourself, but......"
Basically they are thinking about cross contamination of personal clothing washed in the same machine, washing powders etc. etc. There was also mention of abrasion caused by varioius machines, and that people might try and tumble dry it.

It is effected by UV light, but there have been no specific tests done. The rep gave examples of brigades in NZ that have had gear in service for the last 8 years with no sign of degregation. They had also seen gear left out in a shed under a skylight that lasted less than a year......

Average life span: 6 years (expected to be much longer for CFS, with expected average use and when gear stored in lockers etc.)

As for the whole Nomex V Proban thing. Group has decided that all those being issued with PBI will retain their nomex as rural gear. Any further rural needed will continue as was (proban pants & nomex coat (with L2 liner for cold weather))

Anyways, I really do like the look and the feel of it..... cant wait till it arrives for the real test!

I am pleased to hear that you like the look and feel.
My question is
Is it hot after a while ?
Did you try  to do any traning in it ?

Unfortunatly they only had one set that was the "real deal". All the others were nylon based sizing sets.

I didnt get a lot of time (about 2 minutes if that!), as they were pushing to get ~50 people measured up.

I think it will be marginally warmer, but nothing to be overly concerned about. It did feel more breathable than the Nomex + L3 liner though, probably because the new liners are Gortex based.

Didnt get to train in it unfortunatly......

Some other interesting bits:

-    CFS reflective = yellow with silver centre
     MFS reflective = orange with silver centre
     This was at MFS request to destinguish between members.

-     Sets will be supplied with a velcro name tag (still to be decided how   to mark it)

-     Big orange tab at the bottom/back of coat to signify liner has been removed (similar for pants)

Just wondering if anyone knows whether the new PBI stuff is water proof or shower proof?

Quote from: JamesGarJust wondering if anyone knows whether the new PBI stuff is water proof or shower proof?

Gortex was originally designed as breathable wet weather gear.... as it evolved, hybrids incorperating nomex were released for fire applications.  Its one of the best types of wet weather gear on the market. Hard wearing, comfortable, and actually keeps the water out!

In short...... yes. The PBI itself may hold water (that i dont know!), but the liner will definately stop you getting wet......

it must drive the proban people bat**** to hear people still say that it washes out- every proban garment in service in australia has a care instructions label saying to use regular washing with a sythetic detergent (synthetics detergents are product like Bio-zet and other) but to not use soap based washes or bleach.

Under these condition, washing improves the proban treatment, and makes the garment more comfortable.

The only question to ask about protective garments is how they have been tested- the only independant laboratory in the world (ie not funded by clothing or fabric manufacturers) who conduct Thermo man clothing tests is the University of Alberta in Canada.

Ask to see Lion apparrels completed garment test (it's not a requirement of the australian standards 4821 and 4967, but is described as an optional performance test)

Quote from: MikeAs for the whole Nomex V Proban thing. Group has decided that all those being issued with PBI will retain their nomex as rural gear. Any further rural needed will continue as was (proban pants & nomex coat (with L2 liner for cold weather))

so... regardless of whether we are at a rural or urban incident, chances are we arent going to be all wearing the same gear, it may just be my opinion, but if i saw a crew dismount from a truck and they are wearing two or possibly three differant kinds of PPE i would think it was  a bit un-professional

Thanks Ferretboy another case of this forum helping to dispel entrenched beliefs. After your post I found this.

http://www.rhodia-proban.com/press%20releases/probanfacts.pdf

I am now wiser :D

An interesting point about perception, to be honest, when I see a SAMFS crew rock up, with all people wearing the same gear, I think, gee they look the part and look like firefighters, when I see a CFS crew rock up I cringe!! I see pants with silver stripes, pants with yellow stripes, pants with day/night stripes. Same with Jackets, I see The FARA Nomex style turnout gear, I see a hundred different styles of proban. It doesn't mean the crews are any better or worse, but its the perception of what you see in front of you. I think the trouble comes back to CFS brigades and Groups having control over what is purchased, and some of the people doing the purchasing that are still in the old CFS scrimp and save frame of mind. Go for the cheapest at the time. My group went against that years ago, its all nomex, no matter who you are, and if you want a helmet, its a Cairns 660, no matter who you are. So every firefighter that arrives at our jobs looks the same. Also, for those who are going to say, but not everyone is that rich, I will have you know, niether are we, but the Nomex is lasting 3 times as long as proban, so the cost is negligable.

Now I wait for all the "interesting comments" :wink:

I agree GT. It's about time we voice our concerns about professionalism. I've stated it with appliances, but I beleive it go much further. We train and respond in a professional manner as volunteers in our communities. I think we should be supported and respected in our appearance as well. State wide wear same PPE, drive similar vehicle (Appliance standards and marking standards). I know this might be a bit of a dream, but you can always hope!

Here is a pic of the PBI Gold that we trialed in February 2004, our guys at the time thought this was not the best out of the three types we trialed, but still better than what we have none the less.

The extra pockets inside the coat and the hook for keys are a good idea, however that was all part of the spec given to the manufacturers by CFS / MFS. It is going to be obviously warmer to work in than what we currently have but I'm sure the benefits of increased protection are going to outweigh the negatives, having said that it is not an easy task to get the liners in and out though, give yourself a good five minutes.

Apparently the final product is slightly different to what we had in the trial.
(http://users.chariot.net.au/~mattb/Fire/PBI%20Gold1.jpg)

I am glad they get custom fitted, the person on the left needs to grow a bit!!

Well it appears Ill have to wait for a bit longer before I  get to play with the new gear. Group changed their mind, and we are now getting 1 set only in the entire group, instead of 15 sets.

I wasnt at the last meeting, but have been told about the following.....

Strangely enough, the decision was not souly based on the budget. It would seem that there are a few problems with the "administration and maintainance" side of things....

ie. How often does the gear get cleaned/inspected?
    Who decides?
    What happens is any gear is deemed to be stuffed?
    How much is it going to cost?
etc etc......
   
There are now concerns being expressed about degregation due to UV, and storage methods. Apparently the MFS are experiencing difficuly with how their turnout pants are stored, its causing creasing and fractures in the fabric......

So, now we wait......

So why bother getting it at all! Or is this going to go an a roadshow of the group. My brigade is trying to get 3 or 4 sets a year for the next few years, starting with the shiftworkers who turn out a lot, then work our way through the BA list. Rather than have a massive bill at the start.

I dare say I dont have the full story..... am just passing information along. After all I wasnt at the meeting.

Ok..... So the story changes again.....

Apparently we will still be getting the new gear now. There are a couple of conditions put on the order, but we should still be getting it.....

At this stage info and theories are as follows:

- State will most probably manage the gear.
- Inspection and cleaning will be required once a year.
- Cleaning will cost $23.30 + freight, a 3 day turn around is expected
- If you believe the gear need to be cleaned at any other time:
    - Cost as above
    - Ring State and notify of gear needing to be cleaned and details
    - State will send a tempory replacement set of gear
                    -> Members set returned for cleaning
                      -> Members set returned to brigade
                        -> Tempory replacement returned to state
- Should a member leave it is proposed that the old set of gear be returned to state, and that the cost of that gear be credited to the group budget. Therefore, when a new member starts the correct set of cear can be obtained at effectively no extra cost.

- Its made in China, bit sad it cant be done in Aust...
- There are currently 300 sets on the water for CFS, and of these only 20 sets have been ordered for brigades.

and that be the latest report from group.............

Storage of the gear.

I heard that it must be kept in an air tight dark storage area.

Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Probably in an ideal world, also we were told not to "bunker" the pants over our boots, they were to be hung so as to not crush the fabric.

It should be stored out of direct sunlight...... and MFS has found problems with keeping them over the boots. But they do not need to be stored in an airtight area.....

:lol:   Thinking of the gear stowage method at STC for compartment!

OK... Time for the latest update

The CFS order of PBI has arrived in Aus... and is currently sitting at Wingfield getting "CFS" Printed on the back.....

The $29 maintenance costs include transport, which is to be arranged by LION.....

R1 will hold stock of about 20 Sets as pool stock.....

The gear IS (contry to prior comments) allowed to be used for training....

I swear sometimes it seems like things go in slow motion.

Im sure i heard that there were brigades that were meant to be receiving this before the end of this financial year......?

Ahhhh, almost...... it was ordered on the condition the money came out this years budget!

Oh ok.

So even tho purchased with this years money, doesnt mean we will get it this financial year?

Well that was the deal our group made..... region were worried that all the gear was being sent and no-one was going to buy it.....

Yeah, that was the stipulation, its all been allocated to this years budget, we were worried about that to, the sets we have ordered have been put against this years budget, as soon as it ticks over to next financial year we will get the next lot.

Well, saw a few pictures of the new stuff, and it looks sweet!   Saw it on the news tonight, MFS firery had it on at a flooding call, Altho I love the blue T/O gear, this will be a huge step forward for CFS.

Yeah its good gear, look forward to the delivery of mine, long way from overalls!!

:-D :-D :-D :-D

Got the new gear..... and I have to say....      I Like it  :-D

It feels quite comfortable and not to hot in general use...... looks the piece to.

Lots of pockets, and some good features for radios....

:-o

So can we expect all brigades that ordered it to be seeing it in the very near future ??

Well..... I can only think that if I got mine, you should be expecting them in the not to distant future....... :roll:
But,  if you really want to find out, should be asking your equipment officer, thats their job to keep tabs on!!

Typical isn't it...... work send me interstate for a couple of weeks....... and I miss our first opportunity to test the new stuff in its prime!!!  :roll:

Hopefully no one else will be wearing it, so it should still be prime on your return.   :lol:

No fear of that..... took it home to look over it......

:D


Whats this about the gortex liner?? Is it actually gortex, or just like a L2 type liner, being more water resistant.??   As far as i knew, Actual gortex was a plasticy material.....Thus melting under heat??

Can you clear that up by looking at your set of PBI?     If not, never mind.

It is definately Gortex.

There was a "nomex embeded" version of Gortex, but the spec's supplied make no mention of this.... (not surprising really).

Roger, would be v. interested to see one of these jackets.

Quote from: strikeathird on July 02, 2005, 01:39:37 AM
:D


Whats this about the gortex liner?? Is it actually gortex, or just like a L2 type liner, being more water resistant.??   As far as i knew, Actual gortex was a plasticy material.....Thus melting under heat??

would be very surprised if they designed ppe that melted....

Anything Will If It Get's Hot Enough :-D

If its hot enough to melt my turnout gear i dont plan on being anywhere near it  :-D

Was surprised when I noticed hoe much plastic was in the cab of CFS appliances... PLastic gives of toxic fumes when heated to extremes.

The kind of extremes we endure when fighting large scale grass / scrub / bush fires.....


Hmmmm.... Not so surprised any more..

Saw the Lion gear close up tonight. Awesome!.

The liner is made by Gortex, however is similar to the liners that are associated with L2 type material, altho having a mich higher structural rating.   It is nothing like the Gotex wet weather gear.

HAve to say, this is one thing the CFS has done right!  Thumbs up.  (Altho, would have liked to see FIRE on the back......)

you'll be surprised what they can do with that material.....

As the proud owner of the new Lion gear I have to say, 2 thumbs up to CFS for getting us the best gear possible!!

What are peoples thoughts on the Zips instead of the Velcro?

E.g   Positives / Negatives ?

There is not much difference between PBI and the current Nomex, still zip and velcro your Nomex, the only thing different is the zipped up fly, which is good because my current nomex velcro is starting to loose its stickiness.

It also take s a little longer to get into, I have found it harder to put on with pants than with shorts.

I see your point with the zip. 

I rekon it would get rather warm wearing pants under the PBI....  Will have to remember to keep a pair of shorts at hand.             :-P

Well..... have good and bad news regarding the PBI (more good than bad)

Took my set to the CFB course, as i figured it was a perfect time to try it out. It certainly was worth it in the Branch Technique sessions. Anyone wearing Nomex came out drenched, whilst the couple of us that had PBI remained dry.

STC has also upgraded the training sets to PBI, and i have to say sitting in the cells felt quite comfortable. Dont think the heat problems are quite as bad as people are imagining. General mobility was quite free as well.

Now.... the bad point(s)

2 sets had what appeared to be the stitching for the RHS front brace attachment come apart.
Really annoying if you were in a fire at the time..... and one side of your turnout pants start dangling.

Anyways, all in all, im still quite impressed :)

I used the new level  3 gear on the CFB course. One of the instructors got a burn on his hand. He was trying a new set of the Lion gloves.
He said they were Cr@p, they felt thin !

Quote from: Mike on July 19, 2005, 08:51:00 AM
Well..... have good and bad news regarding the PBI (more good than bad)

Took my set to the CFB course, as i figured it was a perfect time to try it out. It certainly was worth it in the Branch Technique sessions. Anyone wearing Nomex came out drenched, whilst the couple of us that had PBI remained dry.

STC has also upgraded the training sets to PBI, and i have to say sitting in the cells felt quite comfortable. Dont think the heat problems are quite as bad as people are imagining. General mobility was quite free as well.

Now.... the bad point(s)

2 sets had what appeared to be the stitching for the RHS front brace attachment come apart.
Really annoying if you were in a fire at the time..... and one side of your turnout pants start dangling.

Anyways, all in all, im still quite impressed :)

I would have used there PBI set, instead of trashing my own....

As for the stiching and straps, Only month or so ago I had my Nomex crutch stiching give way at a going structure fire, while inside, while wearing B.A... Not to mention having no thumb loops, so while working you find your turnout coat turns Short Sleeved......  The Suspender pins come out, snap, and the actual braces them selves fray into little pieces.

As for the gloves, if he was wearing normal Riggers he would have lost his hands if he was burnt through the structure gloves.     



As a parting comment..........Unfortunately nothing is perfect.....

The training PBI was only to be used for Live fire simulations....
Its turnout gear, if it breaks in that kind of training, then theres something wrong with it... Besides Id rather have it happen at training than on a job....

is there any station that has this gear yet???

if not any idea when it is due to be issued

Have a look at this link: http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&topic=23.0

failing it working go to equipment and then the posts on new level 3 gear!

The discussion has been going on and on and on and on and on now for a month or ......... with many 'ex spert' opinions  :-D

hehe..... on and on, with lots of "I think's" and "What about's" and not much "I know".....

The joys of speculation!  :wink:

some stirling memebrs have them. Other BA operators are being measured up.

Can these posts be moved into one of the other 6 or so discussions on PBI??    Soon we could have a PBI category....    :-D   :-P

Quote from: strikeathird on August 02, 2005, 03:39:11 PM
Can these posts be moved into one of the other 6 or so discussions on PBI?? Soon we could have a PBI category.... :-D :-P

hehehehe, why not?
Just noticed that some people at Balhannah have it, from CFS promo unit's website:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~janinek/photogallery/page6photos/1-balhannahcrash-Dsc_3689.jpg

I notice that the Oakbank/Balhannah lieutenant is wearing his PBI at an MVA.
My brigade, having purchased 5 sets of this PBI - one of which I have received -  have had it drummed into us by our brigade captian that the operational use of PBI gold is limited ONLY to structural fire-fighting and related callouts eg, fixed/private alarms, house fires, etc...

Dont get me wrong, I am all for additional operational useage of PBI eg. MVA's, car fires etc. (excluding rural fire-fighting of course), but is the story that my group/brigade is being told different to that of other brigades now using PBI gold?

The MFS wear the PBI to all calls, I am not sure if all MFS firefighters have the PBI. On tv you can see the new and old turnout gear.

There probably does need to be a CFS wide directive especially what is appropriate for grass/scrub fires. But for most everything else this gear is exactly what should be worn. IMO. :-)

It really isn't that heavy and provides the best protection at all manner of jobs. I personally would not like to see a situation where you only put it on for structure related jobs.

Wear the stuff & get comfortable with it. It is so much better than the outgoing level 3 gear.

If working around an MVA why not have the best protection. Don't be forced to settle for less than adequate protection at high risk jobs. It will protect better against fire/explosion, hydraulic line failure (help stop you being injected by hydraulic fluid), better prevents sharps penetration etc etc.

Be mindful of heat stress but there is too much focus on the gear being hot, it really is ok. Drink lots & be fit for your role and you will be fine. Dress down when you can to shed some heat.

All my opinion  :-D

I'm with you firefrog.

I have been told even if you wear this gear to ash wednesday everyday for 10 years it will still be in good condition.
I wear it for everything except grass fires. I've heard it is being certified for level one gear without the liners in but i still can't see why they can't give us a nomex work shirt and if the fire gets a bit intense we can just throw our jacket on.
It's not as bigger deal as everyone makes it out to be, it's new gear to replace the old gear so just wear it. It is so expensive because it is so well made and will last along time.

Your example is probably a little 2 lax.... when we were measured up I quizzed the manufacturers about UV degregation. They said that if exposed  all the time, lifespan would be severely reduced. (sighted a case in NZ).

Someone from region visited our station the other day and saw my PBI in the locker, Nomex hanging on the door, with the door pushed around as far as it could go.... so i could keep a bit of air flow there.... Our Capt. said he was horrified to see it. That the locker had to be kept closed tight....

Now interestingly enough, the gear at STC was stored in shelves in the RCR shed. Skylights and windows galore, and nothing covering the gear. Will be interesting to see how it lasts!

Likewise, i agree firefrog. The gear is there because it offers the best protection. Why would we go for less.... and its really not as hot as people say have been raving about. Use it sensible and there wont be a problem.

yeah uv is an issue, from speaking to the girls at lion the uv issue was more for m.f.s because they have glass roller doors and our gear should be fine. For info m.f.s hang their gear up inside out while off shift.

If you only use the level 3 gear for structure fires, what happens if you have a grass fire :?
Do you take your PBI as well :?
Sometimes grass fires turn into shed fires, house fires etc
Currently with the nomex you can take your level 3 liner with you.
So what do people do :? any procedures for this problem

At the moment we take both sets to grass fires which is a pain, thats why i think we should at least be able to wear our pants all the time and either take two jackets or have a nomex work shirt which is basically a nomex jacket without a liner.

Amen to the NOMEX work shirt comment !!!!

Quote from: Firefrog on August 03, 2005, 01:33:35 PM
There probably does need to be a CFS wide directive especially what is appropriate for grass/scrub fires. But for most everything else this gear is exactly what should be worn. IMO. :-)

I agree, as I am receiving conflicting stories and it is very hard to ignore the directions of a brigade captain, although I believe he has been given incorrect information - no fault of his.
All brigades should receive an offical CFS directive (sooner rather than later) outling the types of PPE including proban, nomex and pbi and the uses and restrictions of each type of garment.  This would finally clear up any doubts and misconceptions about pbi and its useage, especially mine.

Yes, i would have thought when planning to get new gear such a directive would come naturally as part of the planning, no point buying a certain garment if you don't know what you want to use it for.
As for the directive i have heard one is coming out, but as with alot of other things c.f.s is being re-active not pro-active.

Bit like the Flash hoods " directive "....

But, we wont get started on that out of thread...    :-o

My uncles, sisters, nieces, brother in-laws,s nephews, cousin's cat once wrote a directive on the wearing of flea collars - however that didn't make it to everyone and hence not all cats wear flea collars!

There is a directive on Level 3 PPE (of which BPI is a form of)It's been there for years - maybe consult the manuals on your fire station shelves.

And before you all start - how many posts have I read about "numerous memos, policies, procedures and alike that HQ write that we have to know - we are volunteers" so maybe - look, listen read and learn  :-o

So, as volunteers you would think we are entitled to wear what ever equipment which is available to us, that makes our job safer ??   But then policies stop that from happening cause of political bullshit.

I have been informed from a group level that the use of pbi gold is restricted ONLY to structural fire-fighting and it is not approved for useage at any other type of incident, including MVA's , HAZMAT etc.  This is where our nomex/proban ppe comes into play.

Brigades using pbi for multi-purpose incidents have been given misleading information, however this gets back to my previous point regarding a CFS directive.

Anyway, looks like I might be needing to take two sets of gear to some call outs, just in case a structure fire eventuates from a non-structural call-out.  Don't know how practical it will be in the long run?

Sounds like the old issue with having structure and bushfire helmets, do you bring both, just in case?
Is there a safety reason that the PBI Gold isn't to be worn at other incidents? or is it just so that they can control its use, and lifetime better?

Heard the comments from that GO, and hit him up about it after the meeting.

The official stance passed down from R1:

PBI is ONLY to be used for STRUCTURAL fires and BA training.

I told him what I thought of that directive (he though it was a fair comment) and offered the following explanations.

PBI has been rated for Structure fires only, nothing else. This being the case, no-one is willing to risk the fact of 'if something was to happen'...

I asked "what about promotional events?, surely we sould be using our cleanest and most proffesional looking gear!" once again no..... not so much due to rating but lifespan of the product.. and the exposure to UV issue..

I floated the issue of PBI Pants and Nomex Coat for grassies and the like. 1 - it would save on cost of gear for crew and 2 - ment we had to take less with us. Once again, the pants arnt rated as such and no-one is willing to risk it.

Apparently the powers that be are not going to move on these aspects, at least until the rating changes, or we get another type of gear!

I then asked what the differene was between wearing the gear promotionally and having it on the truck 'in case of a structure fire'. Still gets the same amount of light in the end. As well as questioning how we were ment to sit in the truck with a heap of gear around our feet....

Reply: Dont take both sets.. If responding to a non structure type incident, then treat it as such and wear the appropriate gear. If something was to eventuate from the initial fire, then it would be delt with at the time.

Im sure he has his reasons and defence for making such a comment, if something ever did happen.... but it was getting real late by then.

I discussed it.... dont take it as gospel, but its the closest thing Ive had to a directive so far. He agreed that it was a stupid idea to have a $1200 set of gear that can only be used... maybe 10 times a year.... if lucky.... but it comes from above his head

The powers that be need a kick in the head sometimes.   I have also heard similarly to what you stated Mike.  Rather annoying isn't it.

I think it should also be cleared for Car/ Vehicle fires, due to the intense heat, and danger possibilities etc.  MVA's, I don't see a problem with it either.

I ask this,  if Mets are able to wear their PBI pants with a nomex work shirt, and if we come under the SAFECOM banner.....Why can't we ??

When SAMFS turnout they will be wearing PBI. Cat up a tree-PBI, MVA-PBI, Fixed Alarm-PBI, Structure Fire-PBI, Grass/scrub-PBI pants/Nomex shirt.

I would like to see the written policy if anyone can dig it up. Surely there is a policy for a service of 16000 firefighters.

Again it's another case of buy now and think later....

Like i have said before everything should have been written out and planned way before thinking about buying the first set.

I would have thought you would find a manufacturer that could make the gear to suit our needs, not us change our needs to suit the manufacturer. :?

For example why not make the gear with a really easily removable liner :?

Quote from: Firefrog on August 12, 2005, 08:05:42 AM
When SAMFS turnout they will be wearing PBI. Cat up a tree-PBI, MVA-PBI, Fixed Alarm-PBI, Structure Fire-PBI, Grass/scrub-PBI pants/Nomex shirt.

I would like to see the written policy if anyone can dig it up. Surely there is a policy for a service of 16000 firefighters.

Here Here.   If it's good enough for one service, why not ours ??!

I have heard that lion apparel are trying to get the PBI approved for use at grass fires. It is being tested without liners so it can get approved.

WE WROTE the specification - yes CFS wrote it - tech services, VFBA and a select group of volunteers. WE, CFS brigades tested the gear, provided feedback and from that a specification was finalised and a tender called.

CFS is the driver, not the manufacturer - so maybe WE need to push our issues quickly, up the chain - to see if there can be some common sense applied - remember a number of our decision makers are active responders, who ride the trucks, attend jobs, put the wet stuff on the red stuff - the rest ........... has beens, sorry may have been there once

Its called a bunch of people that have not fought fires since Noah was a lad, so anything new and fancy is BAD news, I will wear my PBI where ever I damn well please. Sometimes you just want to smack these people, every other country in the world wears PBI to any call they go to, why the hell is the CFS any different. Is this policy in writing, for that matter is anything the CFS does in writing. Until I see it in writing signed by the Chief with information based on FACTS then the phrase "bite me" comes to mind!!

Phew, glad I got that out of my system.

i agree with what your saying Wagon... but the truth is that if something does happen on the fireground, i want to make sure im going to be looked after.

The fact of the matter is that if anyone thinks nothing will happen, they they are nieve. Our GO is not one for wasting resourses, and if we were told PBI was the go for everything, so be it.

Think of the possible ramifications. Not only do you get raked over the coals for it, but so does every one above you. Personally I have a lot more respect for the other officers than to do that to them....

But it defies logic, so what CFS are saying is that we are the only fire service in the world that is doing it right in respect to only wearing PBI for structure fires, I mean, I won't wear it for grassies as its hot, but I can't see a problem for all the others, if that was they case, then why the hell did we get it in the first place. I understand your respect for the rules, but if we all acted like sheep then we would be in an awful lot of trouble.

You do what you feel is right, I will do what I feel is right, and what I feel is to fight for a reason, or an explanation of why my 1200 dollar set of kit is so good for wearing in structure fires, but is bad for everything else, and why my brother firefighters in SAMFS, who I work with nearly every day, can wear it. Why are we so special.

Structure Fires, Fixed Alarms, MVA's This I Think Is Acceptable To Wear The Gear To But Grass Fires You Wouldn't Want To Its Just To Dam Hot.

Our group has justed made a policy that it is only to be worn to structure fires... :x

What's really funny is that we had a grass fire the other night and i wore my nomex and took my pbi with me but the pbi got dirtier from being pushed around the floor of the appliance than if i was wearing it. :?

I have no problem with not wearing it to grass fires, but the rest of it is just stupid. I know it costs a lot, but so what, I am not lugging two sets of gear unless I have to.

Having worn my PBI recently to two house fires, overall, I am very impressed with the gear from an operational point of view.  It feels very protective, and has some very nice little features that excel it past the nomex gear: The padded knees for one are great when you are kneeling down for extended periods on an external strucural defence - especially when you are carrying around extra weight.  The large "collar" (I can't remember if it has a proper name) really gives good protection, especially if you don't have a flash-hood.  Lastly, it was good to be able to leave my pants on and hose them down afterwards and not get even slightly wet on the inside.  Cleaned up very well, especially since it got reasonably dirty during overhaul.

All in all, great gear!
However, there are still some issues by the sound of things regarding the extent of its usage. In my group, it is for STRUCTURAL fire-fighting use only.

Yeah because people with the rank are scared of it, and its cost, it was the same deal when Nomex first came out, there was massive arguements in my brigade and group, first off in 1998 we were only going to by a set per BA set and a large set. That idea lasted about 5 mins, give it time, the novelty will wear off and we will wear it all the time. It just annoys me that our brothers in SAMFS can wear it all the time, whats the diff!!

Quote from: CFS_fire32 on September 16, 2005, 11:23:25 AM
Having worn my PBI recently to two house fires, overall, I am very impressed with the gear from an operational point of view.  It feels very protective, and has some very nice little features that excel it past the nomex gear: The padded knees for one are great when you are kneeling down for extended periods on an external strucural defence - especially when you are carrying around extra weight.  The large "collar" (I can't remember if it has a proper name) really gives good protection, especially if you don't have a flash-hood.  Lastly, it was good to be able to leave my pants on and hose them down afterwards and not get even slightly wet on the inside.  Cleaned up very well, especially since it got reasonably dirty during overhaul.

All in all, great gear!
However, there are still some issues by the sound of things regarding the extent of its usage. In my group, it is for STRUCTURAL fire-fighting use only.

Did i see something about a flash hood in there !!   :-o   hehehe


U weren't the fire fighter in the photos on the promo website, from down south wearing PBI and a f/hood..??


I have voiced this before, and will again.  I think it is utterly stupid that the PBI cannot be worn to such incidents as car fires, MVA's (as the risk of fire is very real!)  -  etc.  The only thing I would say no to, is Grass Fires.  Due to the amount of heat.  But I would over come that, buy having crews in Nomex work shirts, and PBI pants !!  Incase the grass fire becomes involved in a structure, u can just throw on your jacket then !!

But, i can never see it happening!

i dont really care about this whole issue, as my group doesnt seem to be getting PBI...

however; in my opinion it seems that the PBI was originally designed to be worn whenever a firefighter is required to wear BA.. hence only given to BA operators.

therefore i would wear it wherever there is the possibility of having to wear BA;
Carfires
Structure Fires
MVAs (risk of carfire)
Fixed Alarms
Grassfires

i understand the whole theory of taking it as a second set of gear in the truck in case you need to wear BA.... but honestly, this is crap..

I agree with the concept of having to wear it at all BA incidents, and in theory all incidents could turn B.A related, however do not think it would be the best idea to wear the full set at a grass fire, due to your body temperature going through the roof !

However, this could be easily fixed with a Nomex work shirt etc.

All other incidents, I think it should be worn at ! 

1) Why buy it, if its not going to get worn
2) Why the HELL can our fellow Fire Service wear it, and we cannot!

Do cfs realise they are giving members the S**** by stuffing them around like this !!  Let the "spies" take that up the chain of command !   

MY VIEW ONLY
:-)

Firetruck - your group made the decision to stock pile nomex, in an attempt to stall the issuing of PBI - mmmmmm makes you wonder who's safety are they concerned with - the fire fighters or the directors of a company who sells nomex and are on the Group Executive!

Not sure that it makes sense to compromise fire fighter safety because of personal views - although I'm sure they don't attend any jobs where offensive fire fighting will be undertaken ....... house fires Eden Hills & Belair, Blackwood Cold Stores, Woolworths Mitcham - maybe the Group executive thinks it's fire fighters and officers are expendable!

More likely that that group wasn't the one's to think of it and introduce it, but your a braver person than I!!

Why do people keep bashing us in the Sturt group, we have made lots of improvements to the CFS like many other brigades and groups
As for the comments
More likely that that group wasn't the one's to think of it and introduce it – What a load of Cr*p
And
your group made the decision to stock pile nomex, in an attempt to stall the issuing of PBI - mmmmmm makes you wonder who's safety are they concerned with - the fire fighters or the directors of a company who sells nomex and are on the Group Executive!
The reason for this was (which I have asked why) the concerns for using it in summer time.
This has nothing to do with who we have purchased equipment from
And
Maybe the Group executive thinks its fire fighters and officers are expendable! What a stupid comment that was oz fire

Let's Play nice!

And we should be careful of speculation, the facts are often different to the perception.  :-D

Wouldn't the Company involved with the buying of the product, if involved in CFS like that be a conflict of interest....To the degree that you were talking bout Oz ??


Oh, &

Do group officers get paid ?



I have heard conflicting stories over the years.....



....Just wondering and all.....

Quote from: fire03rescue on September 19, 2005, 09:19:55 AM
Why do people keep bashing us in the Sturt group, we have made lots of improvements to the CFS like many other brigades and groups

fire03rescue - relax, I remember the introduction of 2 piece PPE - yes the old Mitcham Hills Group were laughed at but CFS followed suite. I remember the introduction of zipped boots, again we were all laughed at but CFS followed. Mmmmm council appliance with 90mm lines, built to meet the specific area, pumpers, 3 sets of rescue equipment, O2 on each front running pump, high training levels, a training building - not knocking the Sturt Group, but no longer believe the comments the Executive are making, nor do half the brigade members or officers. The Group has a proud heritage of introducing many, many items over the years under excellent leaders (Ray Collins & Dave Pearce to name a few) unfortunately though this has stalled - maybe they should continue to look forward, it previously lead as it equipped it's fire fighters with the best - that is no longer the case and the only ones suffering are the fire fighters, who aren't now using the best equipment available, but are reliant on technology that was the fore front five years ago ............ what do you prefer, Nomex with a liner for offensive operations or PBI Gold ..... I know my choice.

Quote from: strikeathird on September 19, 2005, 12:58:27 PM
Oh, &

Do group officers get paid ?



I have heard conflicting stories over the years.....



....Just wondering and all.....

eh??

i have heard rumours of several CFS groups having group officers recieveing honourariums... however i believe CFS stamped this out a while ago.

i cant confirm either way... purely going on rumors i have heard

our group officer did recieve honourariums.. and absoloutley none of the firefighters in the group knew...

can you imagine how absoloutely p**sed we were???

not only did they get group cars, which were used for whatever they felt like doing, driving to the shops, taking kids to school, driving to work (for another fire service) and sitting in the car park all day, with free fuel cards, compliments of CFS... but they also had mobile phone bills paid (50% i think)and a few other benefits...

ggrrrrr... not happy.

Quote from: strikeathird on September 16, 2005, 11:24:30 PM

Quote from: CFS_fire32 on September 16, 2005, 11:23:25 AM
Having worn my PBI recently to two house fires, overall, I am very impressed with the gear from an operational point of view.  It feels very protective, and has some very nice little features that excel it past the nomex gear: The padded knees for one are great when you are kneeling down for extended periods on an external strucural defence - especially when you are carrying around extra weight.  The large "collar" (I can't remember if it has a proper name) really gives good protection, especially if you don't have a flash-hood.  Lastly, it was good to be able to leave my pants on and hose them down afterwards and not get even slightly wet on the inside.  Cleaned up very well, especially since it got reasonably dirty during overhaul.

All in all, great gear!
However, there are still some issues by the sound of things regarding the extent of its usage. In my group, it is for STRUCTURAL fire-fighting use only.

Did i see something about a flash hood in there !!   :-o   hehehe


U weren't the fire fighter in the photos on the promo website, from down south wearing PBI and a f/hood..??

If you look closely, you will find that the BA operator wearing the flash-hood is actually wearing nomex.  There is no BA operator wearing PBI with a flash-hood at those incidents.

Get ur facts right.

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~janinek/photogallery/page7photos/1-mb-Moanahouse-2.jpg



I wasn't specifiying any certain incident, I asked the question if the person was the the one in the photo's from the House fire Down south.....  And I think you will find, the person in the photo has PBI on, and a Flash Hood.

Glad to clear that up.

Quote from: OMGWTF on September 19, 2005, 08:07:20 PM
our group officer did recieve honourariums.. and absoloutley none of the firefighters in the group knew...

can you imagine how absoloutely p**sed we were???

not only did they get group cars, which were used for whatever they felt like doing, driving to the shops, taking kids to school, driving to work (for another fire service) and sitting in the car park all day, with free fuel cards, compliments of CFS... but they also had mobile phone bills paid (50% i think)and a few other benefits...

ggrrrrr... not happy.

And thats just wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with that !

Was talking to some CFA paid a nd vols the other day and they are not sure what gear they are going to,PBI gold is there first pick but they have had some bad feed back from QLD FIRE RESCUE saying its too hot and crews turn out with jacket off till they get to a working job then put it on. They have found a few problems up there with UV rays and damage to the gear. CFA have a looking at NOMEX or PBI GOLD and each CABA member will get two setts of PBI if they get it.

I read even my most mundane posts over several times before posting them to ensure that I haven't inadvertantly said something that could be construed as personal or negative.
I would personally take any accusation of disregard for volunteer safety extremely badly :-(

I have no idea if and when those of us outside the urban fringe will get PBI. We shall continue to use our nomex happily in the meantime. I have never had a problem with the nomex gear in an agressive interior attack situation and it certainly served me well in the extremes of the flashover containers. I would have thought that was as hot an area as I would ever be likely to enter. I don't feel that my safety as a vollie is being compromised if I am not immediately provided the latest market innovation. A Group may have all kind of reasons to choose to stock up on a particular type of PPE and I'd reckon they'd be fully accountable to their Group for that decision.

Some Group office bearers may have been in recepit of honorariums and/or reimbursements. These should be transparent in the sense that the Group Managament Committee would have had approved and endorsed these and that they appear in Group Financial records which are audited and public.

A memo was recently released regarding the cessation of honorariums.

Group vehicles should also be transparent in their use and should be utilised for Group Officers to get to incidents, operationally at incidents and secondarily for travel to meetings and trainings. Genuine concerns with any usage outside of CFS reasons should be put to the Group. You may find that genuine usage is being misconceived as abuse.

Kat - I know the company who were doing sizing were trying to make their way around the state (also some boffins from HQ). I think (actually know) though they may have been bobbed out or R3 :x

It is easy to be jealous of Brigades or Groups with the resources, personnel and drive to get out there and do something above the norm. Good luck to them if they can do it - their "proactiveness" has had positive flow on effects for all of us.

Not so long ago Brigades simply did not have what they didn't get for themselves. CFS as an organisation lagged behind what Brigades did for themselves and many of the items that are now standard PPE or stowage were fundraised for, researched, tried, tested and purchased by individual Brigades. Fairly recent examples include structural helmets, 25mm extension lines and variable flow branches. These were pretty basic items that CFS just did not supply or have a standard for.

This really has changed for the better (despite definate shortfalls) since the change of funding to the ESL. CFS is much more up with the times in relation to equipment available (despite what you 2500GPM aerial skyjet wanters may think :-))We also, as Brigades and Groups, are much more restricted in what we can go out, research and buy for ourselves now in any event. (The flash hood debate being a perfect example).

They're not coming to Region 3??

Well they will be coming, but were bobed out until last as there was a perception by bob that it wasn't a high priority - despite a large number of brigades with large urban risks  :evil: :evil: Think however that the OH&S drive may change that!

Its not just the urban fringe brigades getting it, its just that we see things like that as important, anyone can buy it at anytime. It just depends what your brigade/group/region see's as important. I am afraid its a simple fact of life that we have more occasions to wear it, and our work load is geared more toward the structural incidents, you can't burn grass and scrub if it isn't there to burn!!! But again its what you see as important, Naracoorte I think went in for it from the word go, correct me if I am wrong.

Ozfire, when bobing around was bobing around khaki overalls were the bee's knee's.

Remember a certain strike team deployment.... Where a rather Rural brigade didn't see it as un-canny to wear the jeans and the flanney...


Nothing like knee high boots, TOp Guards, and single piece overalls :P :P

But strikeathird, thankfully that very rural brigade had an officer from a very different brigade that put his foot down and threatened to call the IC and have the appliance removed from the fireground, and boy did that go down well, not!! No room for cowboys.

Saw some photos the other day of an MVA on the Gorge Road, near Athelstone - the RCR crew (identified by their RCR tabards) were ALL in PBI - so I guess when a brigade with numerous staff wear PBI to many varied jobs, it's no wonder the rest of us are confussed.......
I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for an Executive answer and for either Euan, Brenton K or Malim to write a one page statement and distribute to all brigades - would save all the BS this forum and others have been going on with while the issue remains unresolved :x

Yeah, you would think they would issue some guidelines before giving the go ahead to order, but as usual we are left to fly blind and have a bunch of different rules made up by brigades and groups, IF CFS HQ ARE READING THIS, GIVE US A FINAL GUIDELINE ON USE AND CALL IT FINAL!!

BAHAHA

(All that needs to be said).

Quote from: David on September 26, 2005, 11:29:11 AM
Its not just the urban fringe brigades getting it, its just that we see things like that as important, anyone can buy it at anytime. It just depends what your brigade/group/region see's as important. I am afraid its a simple fact of life that we have more occasions to wear it

David, I am afraid that the only way my Brigade (in Region 3) knows anything about PBI is because of this forum. We have had no opportunity to decide whether it's "important" or not.

When the last SFEC's were released my Brigade was one of 27 in the state that received an urban rural rating. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that the urban fringe Brigades are the only ones with risks and who may see firefighter and community safety as important.

Kat:  Urban-Rural, or Rural-Urban ??  There is a differance, just wanted to clarify which class it was.

And if you are Urban-Rural, I know alot or Rural-Urban brgades, that are EXTREMELY busy, and should be classed differently, but are not.

And in regards to the PBI Kat, you / members can buy it your selves "if you wish", how ever it is costly.

Ah, Kat, thats where your region is letting you down badly, I have seen some pictures from other brigades in your region fighting a large factory type fire with BA operators in Proban, when I asked a member of this brigade I was told the Nomex was hanging in the station, they didn't know what they where going to!! WTF!!

So I think you need to ask your region what is going on!!

So your Urban/Rural, interesting, has anyone tried getting there standards looked at lately? It seems nobody wants to know about it.

Was talking to someone last week from Happy Valley brigade (think he is LT2 or something), he said they are trying to get their SFECs upgraded from rural/urban to urban/rural but region dont think they can justify it??? Dont know if anyones been to Happy Valley lately but its pretty urban if you ask me.

Off the topic but
Good luck with their SFECs upgraded from rural/urban to urban/rural

WTF!! I would have thought Happy Valley were Urban/Rural already!! Your right , apart from the fringes (which look like they could have a decent fire) its pretty urban to me. Tillerman, any reason for the change, looks like they already have a pumper and a 24P, or is that going to change?

CFS do some funny things sometimes.

Don't know, will try find out and get back to you. their pumper would be pretty old now i think. They also have a little 14 rodeo

We were rated Urban/Rural (don't worry I know the difference) and this was based on the three risk ratings in special, rural and structural threat. These were developed a long time ago using complex formulae and I don't know how much work has been done on them since. Just because there are a lot of urban risks in an area doesn't mean the Brigade will be rated urban/rural - there are other factors involved like proximity of other resources. And when the prescriptions were released with the SFEC document I'm pretty sure there were only 27 - and you would be quite suprised to know who they were, I'm sure.

We have BA Brigades in the Region that do not posess a set of Nomex turnout gear. Group budgets may be accommodating $10 000 photocopiers but basic PPE is still an issue. The thing is who should be monitoring this???

I don't know where you are from Kat, but thanks for clearing up the specs Q.  Alot of people do get it mixed up sometimes.

I find it interesting about how the SFEC's and how equipment etc is allocated sometimes.  With all this talk I did some investigating on my afternoon off.. I was going to compare it to Kats brigade, as they are Urban Rural, but don't know which brigade it is :P.. So after hearing about Happy Valley being Rural Urban, I looked at and found the following info.

Happy Valley: (EMA Brigade) (Attended 252 Incidents last Financial year)

1xDesignated Heavy Pumper (H/V Pumper)
1xUrban/Rural 24P (H/V 24P)
1x14 Appliance (Holden Rodeo Dual cab) (H/V 14)

Response Zones:
Metropolitan - Major City and Suburban areas
Grasslands - Grasslands
Hills & Mountains - Hills & Mountains
Rural Areas - General Rural environments
Bushland & Scrub - Bushland & Scrub
Towns & Urban Areas - Towns & Urban Areas

Carries:
8 x B.A Sets.  - 4 on H/V Pumper, 4 on H/V 24P
PPV Fan
Generator
Port. Pump
Lighting
Foam
Chainsaw
Plus other.

Incident Types (Short List)
Building Fire (29)
Combustible / Flammable leak (4)
Extrication/Rescue(not vehicle) (3)
Flood (7)
Hazardous Material (3)
Grass or Stubble Fire (26)
Mobile Property / Vehicle (21)
Private Alarm (24)
Scrub and Grass Fire (13)
Vehicle Accident / No Injury (17)
Vehicle Accident Rescue (5)
Vehicle Accident With Injuries (18)

I found it interesting.  I looked at a few brigades on the promo site this afternoon. (Above info from promo site).  Now, H/V as well as a few other brigades in the group attend more Vehicle Rescues, and MVA's in general, than some Rescue brigades.  Yet there is no designated "Heavy Rescue" in that group. (As far as I can tell).  There is also no HAZMAT in the group either.  The nearest Rescue brigade for Happy Valley is either MFS (If they are available) or it seems Blackwood (Which is some drive ! ).

Now, I can't see how that is not an Urban / Rural brigade.  As I looked at a number of other brigades on the promo site, which are, and they hardly compare.

Would be interesting to see how to define Urban Rural.  I used to live way out country, so a 24 in the stix was sufficient.  But all your talk on SFEC's got me interested.

Are there any Urban / Rural brigade members on this forum ? (Other than Kat)..  And where are you from ?  Would be intersting to compare.

:wink:

strikeathird - How do we find out whether our brigade is Urban / Rural?  Is there a copy of the SFEC guidelines on the internet somewhere? (Or even better, a list of each brigades SFEC requirements? ;))

Unsure, you could ask your captain etc about your brigade.  I know a couple off the top of my head, and like most people, ask about the ones I don't.

However, their may well be a doc. that states every brigade and its classification... ?

Quote from: David on September 29, 2005, 03:02:34 AM
Ah, Kat, thats where your region is letting you down badly, I have seen some pictures from other brigades in your region fighting a large factory type fire with BA operators in Proban, when I asked a member of this brigade I was told the Nomex was hanging in the station, they didn't know what they where going to!! !!

So I think you need to ask your region what is going on!!

So your Urban/Rural, interesting, has anyone tried getting there standards looked at lately? It seems nobody wants to know about it.

That sound like my Group as The Brigade Im from is Urban/Rural and we have been told that we will get the new levle 3 gear in about 2 years. Then it will go for the new BA members only not the older ones.

Wouldn't the simplest ruling be to wear it for all incidents that require you to wear BA, which includes almost everything apart from grass fires.

^^  Couldn't agree more..

Has anybody sent their PBI off for cleaning yet, if so what was the turn around like?

My brigade sent two sets off for cleaning 2 weeks ago (and yes they were dirty from structure fires) and as yet have not seen or heard of a replacement set, let alone the return of their own gear.  Something is going wrong some where down the line, whether it be at region or the manufacturers/cleaners (Lion Apparell). So much for the five day turn around and temporary replacement gear deal that we were all promised would be in place!!!

When my group had PBI Gold washed, members were handed the replacements as they handed over their dirty sets... I suggest you ring Lion Apparel to check yours haven't been lost :|

They are like..   " What gear... "


hehehe :P

hehe... "Oh, that was supposed to be WASHED?"

It might be a little more difficult being in the CFS as not everyone has it, and I am not even sure there are spare sets yet, where as SAMFS did one bulk purchase with a one off grant from the government, CFS are doing it in dribs and drabs so who knows what is going on. But chase it up, that is pretty poor at any rate.

Yeah, one of the guys was going to contact region today and find out what is taking so long.

Quote from: David on October 05, 2005, 04:08:46 PM
...that is pretty poor at any rate.

Well, one of our sets got damaged - one of the brace stitchings came a drift on a pair of pants - and it took about 5 weeks to get repaired and returned back to our station, however we did receive a relacement set whilst this was happening, thankfully!

On the urban/rural, rural/urban, rural thing.

When the SFEC document was last released each Brigade had what is called a Brigade Prescription which specfies what rating they are, what their ratings in the three areas (structural, special, urban) is, what equipment, resources and levels of training are required. We are prescribed lots of things that we don't have (as I am sure many others are) so it is not a magic recipe to receive resources galore. A lot of Brigades consider themselves urban/rural and may say that they are (and I'm sure they're morally justified) but there are actually very few "officially" and they're not all 200+ response stations - far from it.

Is HV Rescue or Hazmat? If they don't have these risks to cover their special service rating is probably fairly low. Also being EMA means that they have ready access to specialist resources?? I'm not sure how EMA affects the risk ratings but I would guess the risks are attributed to the red truck Brigade. The formulas many many years ago were done from insurance data, incident history and many factors like that but I'm hard pressed to ascertain how they've been updated and what goes down with them now.

Its the typical CFS thing, we won't give you the trucks you need because the red truck can do it for you, and trust me, I have been told that to my face. But when we try the arguement in reverse, we are told "we are not here to prop up the MFS" Go figure!!

I feel the CFS becoming like the NSWRFS.

Quote from: David on October 06, 2005, 12:31:28 PM
Its the typical CFS thing, we won't give you the trucks you need because the red truck can do it for you, and trust me, I have been told that to my face. But when we try the arguement in reverse, we are told "we are not here to prop up the MFS" Go figure!!

And aint that the truth! :-)

It's all about....


Money Money Money !!

Has anyone bought velcro name tags for their PBI yet?
My brigade/group is interested in getting them, but the group equipment officer has had no luck in finding out where to get them made. You'd think Lion Apparell would do them, but I'm pretty sure he said they didn't.
Could be wrong.

They are doing them at the moment and will automatically be sent out to the brigades. Last time i was at LION the girl was sorting through them. Eventually they will be sent out with the person's gear.

Ok, we have all CABA members had the gear now for a while and we do people really think about it??? I understand from someone that all PBI gold that was sent out to brigades has been returned for repairs as the stiching was coming apart on the arms and around the neck. I have done a little research and from what I have found out from members in the QFS and the CFA that there are too many problems with this gear and that in QFS members where being overcome by heat before they got to the job,so much so that they turn out with only the jacket on and if its a working job the put the pants on. There is also the issue of cleaning the gear why can't a local dry cleaner do this if lion sent out instructions???? As for the cost well how are brigades/ groups ment to buy the stuff CFS should issue this gear when members complete a CABA course,that way it comes out of H/Q budget and not the groups.........

agree that groups/brigades shouldnt have to foot the bill...

too many issues... perhaps we should have stuck with nomex? and not caused the problems that have arrisen in certain grous/areas, and the costs....

our old nomex would meet australian standards if they had issued liners for the pants.. wouldnt this have been a much cheaper and easier opton?

The PBI is world class and is far better than the Nomex in many ways. Granted there have been issues with communication and policy but in time I'm hopeful we will look back and be grateful for the change.

Good call firefrog, remember the carry on when Nomex was first introduced. Also look at this, the yanks have been wearing this stuff for years, and it gets hot over there to, its all about managing the wearing of the garment. By the way, CFA wear Proban pants and woolen turnout coats still, so it will be a culture shock for them to upgrade to this.

couple of people in operation mercury pics wearing PBI at QEH drill....

obviously just plainly ignoring the fact taht they have been told not to wear it to anything other than structure fires....?

Quote from: OMGWTF on October 20, 2005, 06:00:58 PM
couple of people in operation mercury pics wearing PBI at QEH drill....

obviously just plainly ignoring the fact taht they have been told not to wear it to anything other than structure fires....?

Probably depends on which brigade you belong to to what you can get away with :?

OMGWTF there is no rules, so until someone from HQ sends out an official document then, meh.

My groups policy is to wear it to any incident that you would use BA, that seems simple enough to me, takes the confusion out.

Also OMGWTF did you notice one of those people wearing the gear was a staff member from STC, whats good for the goose...........

no i didnt notice... dont actually know every member of the CFS by heart, LOL...

just staying because that from everything i have heard it is fro structure fires only, because of the heat factor.... to me that would mean that it obviously isnt designed just to protect people from any hazard directly related to wearing BA, just any incident where the wearer is engaged in structural firefighting, and the associated hazards...

if ya know what i mean.

no i didnt notice... dont actually know every member of the CFS by heart, LOL...

Spose you don't really have to know every member off by heart... Staff members usually have the Blue stripe on their red helmets....That's usually enough to figure it out....

It's still a pity that the new gear is taking so long to be rolled out.  A one off government grant wouldnt go astray...

^  Can;t see it happening anytime soon...

See this is where someone is doing the dodgy on us, SAMFS got a one off grant to kit all their FF's in PBI GOLD, yet the poor cousins miss out again, is someone not pushing for us, surely we could justify a grant.

I thought a budget bi-lateral bid had been put in for the CFS to purchase some more PBI, anyone else know more.

All I know is I aint wearing it, and nor is alot of fellow BA members....


:?  :?  :?

Not to take away from the Tragedy of this last summer, but the focus seems to be on throwing money at CFS to fight bushfires, so that may mean things like structural PPE are not really that important in the governments eyes? Who knows why?


I could be talking rubbish as usual!! :roll:

Sometimes it does seem like we are only appreciated in the "summer months", and when fighting the very highy publicised events such as bush fires etc...

Even when Urban related fires do occur, it is often only the fringe brigades that get mentioned...

Im sure their are often incidents when house / pub / building fires are attended to by CFS out in the middle of no where...


However those CFS brigades are generally only mentioned when fighting the 1000H grassy...

Quote from: strikeathird on October 23, 2005, 06:37:39 PM
no i didnt notice... dont actually know every member of the CFS by heart, LOL...

Spose you don't really have to know every member off by heart... Staff members usually have the Blue stripe on their red helmets....That's usually enough to figure it out....

striker... there werent any red helmets w blue stripes in any pics i saw...

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~julieann/operationmercury2005/pages/DSC_0711.htm
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~julieann/operationmercury2005/pages/DSC_0880.htm

cheers... the pics i looked at were on the promotions site the day after... only about 5 shots, so they must have uploaded that album since.

neway i will take a look.

Quote from: CFS_firey on October 26, 2005, 04:25:14 PM
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~julieann/operationmercury2005/pages/DSC_0711.htm
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~julieann/operationmercury2005/pages/DSC_0880.htm

Ta.

Looks like Corey got that incident control vest out of the museum  :wink:

The picture I was looking at was on the home page , but anyway......

Our GO reckons there is a directive from Region 1 about the wearing of PBI for Structure incidents only. The descision was purely based on wear and tear as well as cost, not suitability for incidents.

Still havent seen it in writing though.

i think youll find... if you search really really hard, that PBI has been approved for all non-rural incidents... so:
fixed alarms, vehicle fires/accidents, domestics, rubbish fire, etc..

just not wildfires/grassies but i believe cfs are trying to get it approved for that..

i have never seen any SOP or the like that states its onyl to be worn to structure fires...

maybve imtalking crap though...

Quote from: medevac on November 15, 2005, 07:20:09 PMPBI has been approved for all non-rural incidents. so:fixed alarms, vehicle fires/accidents, domestics, rubbish fire, etc.
just not wildfires/grassies but i believe cfs are trying to get it approved for that..

Last Thing I Would Want To Do Is Wear That To A Grassy. Its Pretty Hot In The Gear.

Any Job That Has The Chance Of Flaring Up I Would Wear It To Minus Grassy. Eg. Fixed Alarms (It Could Be A Going Job), Vehicle Fires (Not Sure Maybe, There Is Always The Chance Of Iginition), Domestics (Same As Fixed Alarms, It Could Be A Going Job) & Rubbish Fires (Well Not 2 Fussed What I Wear With Them).

This is one thing that annoys me the most about the CFS, they can't all agree and go by one rule, if you ask HQ about PBI the answer is any incident but rural, then Region 1 and the Region 1 G/O's make up there own rules, which is the most backwards thing I have ever heard, if you are going to buy the best safety equipment possible then leave it on the hook then why do we bother, and they wonder why new members get frustrated and leave, coz we are being run by a bunch of people that don't seem to have much idea and be in touch with reality, people making descisions last fought a structure fire when khaki overalls where the greatest, get with the times, its 2005 for crying out loud!!!
THE STATE RULE IS THE FINAL RULE.

Quote from: David on November 16, 2005, 12:34:22 PM
This is one thing that annoys me the most about the CFS, they can't all agree and go by one rule, if you ask HQ about PBI the answer is any incident but rural, then Region 1 and the Region 1 G/O's make up there own rules, which is the most backwards thing I have ever heard, if you are going to buy the best safety equipment possible then leave it on the hook then why do we bother, and they wonder why new members get frustrated and leave, coz we are being run by a bunch of people that don't seem to have much idea and be in touch with reality, people making descisions last fought a structure fire when khaki overalls where the greatest, get with the times, its 2005 for crying out loud!!!
THE STATE RULE IS THE FINAL RULE.

Unfortunately David, you are exactly right.
My GO says PBI - structure fires only.
Yet, and I heard this directly from an adjacent group DGO, there GO says PBI - everything except rural fires.

You tell me what is going on, because it seems like where being run by a pack headless chooks who don't seem to realise how their decisions are really affecting brigades.  And as a result, many brigades are doing it tuff, because many good people have been lost - sick and tired of being jerked around time after time!  And this could be said for many, many, many, ... aspects of the CFS in general.

What people dont realise is by saying we cant use it... they may just be causing more problems.

My PBI has been in my locker for the last month due to these imposed "rules" and due to the fact that Im not even allowed to leave my locker cracked (nomex on the door to limit the light), the resultant lack of air flow has lead to the gear going mouldy..... I wont repeat what said to the capt about it....

There will be more words said at the Group meeting tonight as well.

I respect the whole UV degredation thing.... but come on. this stuff is stored in a shed, with poly carbonate sky lights that DO NOT let UV light through. There will be more costs cleaning the thing, than replacing it because it couldnt air!

Enough of the ranting and raving... but that really annoyed me!

On a lighter note:
Did you know that PBI stands for Polybenzimidazole.
I think ive got the pronounciation down ;)

You have got it brother, the amount of screwing around going on is taking its toll, we just want the right stuff so that we can do the job for our communities, any more of this garbage that is forced on us now and we will be paying a huge ESL as we will need a lot more paid stations!! We can't even get a simple answer from HQ about when we can wear our PBI, c'mon people, make you minds up, the state rule is final.

As a side note, Mix 102.3 rumour file winner was some bloke that rang up and said 90% of CFS turnout gear didn't meet Australian Standards, ha ha, he got 102 dollars for his rumour!! He is probably right, because we are never allowed to wear the stuff!! It's to precious!!

Are you for real Mike, I think you need to tell your Group Officers to pull their heads out the sand and tell them to ring Arthur Tindall for the real answer of when you can wear it, his reasons are exactly what you describe, we didn't pay all this money to leave the gear in a locker to perish from lack of use!
Let me guess, your GO was last an active firefighter when kahki was fashionable...And 99% of our stations are tin sheds so not much UV light gets in, well it doesn't in my station, MFS are having to get a lot of work done as the have glass doors on their engine bays which lets light in.

Im not knocking my GO... he generally does a filtered good job, and I have not had many reasons over the years to disagree with him. A man I have much respect for really.

But there are always times where people will disagree

Yeah, he does a great job as an operations officer at larger bushfires, but on some things such as this topic (and I know a few GO's who are the same) they seem to be a bit out of touch with reality. If I was in private industry and bought all new safety gear and then told my workers they couldn't wear it, I would be hung,drawn and quartered.

So CFS HQ, we plead with you to tell the regions and groups the official line, we are going nuts out here!! If not, we simply stop buying the gear.....

Here's a thought  :-D wear the supplied gear at your discretion to protect you the fire fighter and deal with the politics later. And when the GO or whoever tells you off stay calm and politely let them know that you will wear the supplied gear how you see fit until they show you the state policy. :-D

I refuse to get caught up in debates like "don't wear a flashhood" etc etc. I have one and nobody can tell me not to wear it. :-D
The gear (PBI) is for your protection use it! wear it, enjoy feeling protected and forget the politics. :-D

If you are going to a non rural in summer throw your nomex in the truck just incase and be happy :-D :-D

Quote from: medevac on November 15, 2005, 07:20:09 PM
i think youll find... if you search really really hard, that PBI has been approved for all non-rural incidents... so:
fixed alarms, vehicle fires/accidents, domestics, rubbish fire, etc..

just not wildfires/grassies but i believe cfs are trying to get it approved for that..

i have never seen any SOP or the like that states its onyl to be worn to structure fires...

maybve imtalking crap though...

i am yet to see written evidence that disprovesmy above comment...
in fact i cant remember where but im sure i read this somewhere... vollie mag or somewhere...

from vollunteer mag volume 112; page 57 "PBI Gold"

Andrew patten; Project Officer, prescribed equipment

"CFS has not endorsed this garment for use as a wildland garment, however it is CFS's and Lion Apparel's intention to explore the possibility of certifying the outer shell for use as a Wildland Garmen compliant to AS4824 (australian standard)"

so basicvally i take from this that it is appropriate PPE for all non-rural incidents...

further to that...

"For further information aout the Lion Apparel Structural PPC please contact Andrew Patten, Project Officer Prescribed Equipment on: (08) 8398 9900 or patten.andrew@cfs.org.au"


so stop whinging.. and contact the man to find out the facts...

apologies in advance

I have heard of a factory having to get a fire crew from their workers and they tried to get PBI Gold. The only thing that stopped them from getting it was the cost. So they got the nomex and it has CFS labels all over it.

I know of people in HQ that read this forum...  So pass this on..  It is QUITE obvious that a very LARGE number of OPERATIONAL CFS vollunteers are VERY unhappy with the TOTAL lack of committment descision wise towards the PBI gear..  GET the rulings out, so it can be sent out in black and white...  GET your shi7 together and get the cr @p paid for (like MFS) so B.A operators aren't FURTHER endangering their lives when using the gear in CRUCIAL , LIFE THREATENING incidents, (Not to mention risking their lives and not getting paid for it, using gear that doesn't meet Aus Standards).. and for gods sake...  DO IT RIGHT AWAY !!!

You Could Always Put Through Near Miss Forms For Every Job That Required To Wear The PBI, So Any Structue Job. Nothing Happened However The Chance Was There Cause We Were Not Wearing The Required Gear. Don't Think They Would Like That To Much.

It Would Be Good When They Finally Get The Ball Rolling & Have The Information There In Black & White. Every Day We Go Without Puts Us In Danger.

Look forward to the day I get injured wearing Nomex (Burn related) in a Structure Fire, when I could have been wearing PBI..(which just MIGHT have given me a better chance !!!).. which could have been paid for for all BA members just like the MFS.......  I thought we were FIRE FIGHTERS...  Just like our paid counterparts............???


So why are we wearing Second rate gear !! ??? 

If you think about it, you would think we would have better gear, at the end of the day we are the ones doing this without pay !  Wouldn't you think we would get looked after a little better ! ??



End Rant.

Yeah Always Thought That Too. They Don't Have To Pay Us So There Should Be More Money Available.  Would Be Interesting To Add Up What The MFS Get Paid, Times That By How Many CFS Vollies There Are & See What The Figures Are. Then Imagine If We Got That Money For Resources?

Quote from: medevac on December 01, 2005, 07:59:25 PM

from vollunteer mag volume 112; page 57 "PBI Gold" Andrew patten; Project Officer, prescribed equipment "CFS has not endorsed this garment for use as a wildland garment, however it is CFS's and Lion Apparel's intention to explore the possibility of certifying the outer shell for use as a Wildland Garmen compliant to AS4824 (australian standard)"
further to that...
"For further information aout the Lion Apparel Structural PPC please contact Andrew Patten, Project Officer Prescribed Equipment on: (08) 8398 9900 or patten.andrew@cfs.org.au"

Well you can leed a horse to water but you can't make it drink ......

You can provide a CFS member with contact names and numbers for enquiries, but you can't make then get off their butts, stop winging and make the call!

I guess for some it's easier to sit at a computer and complain rather than pick up a phone and call someone who might have an answer - sorry it's not a free call. :evil:

not sure why the tune has changed as i missed the meeting at which it was first discussed,., but have just found out that Sturt group will be handing out 'about' 4 sets per brigade....  :?

oh well... at least ill finally get it then.

perhaps FARA are now allowed to sell it... LOL (just stirring)

Quote from: oz fire on December 06, 2005, 10:07:06 AM

Quote from: medevac on December 01, 2005, 07:59:25 PM

from vollunteer mag volume 112; page 57 "PBI Gold" Andrew patten; Project Officer, prescribed equipment "CFS has not endorsed this garment for use as a wildland garment, however it is CFS's and Lion Apparel's intention to explore the possibility of certifying the outer shell for use as a Wildland Garmen compliant to AS4824 (australian standard)"
further to that...
"For further information aout the Lion Apparel Structural PPC please contact Andrew Patten, Project Officer Prescribed Equipment on: (08) 8398 9900 or patten.andrew@cfs.org.au"

Well you can leed a horse to water but you can't make it drink ......

You can provide a CFS member with contact names and numbers for enquiries, but you can't make then get off their butts, stop winging and make the call!

I guess for some it's easier to sit at a computer and complain rather than pick up a phone and call someone who might have an answer - sorry it's not a free call. :evil:

what.. ?

i tried  :wink:

Quote from: strikeathird on December 06, 2005, 10:30:15 AM
Well you can leed a horse to water but you can't make it drink ......
You can provide a CFS member with contact names and numbers for enquiries, but you can't make then get off their butts, stop winging and make the call!
I guess for some it's easier to sit at a computer and complain rather than pick up a phone and call someone who might have an answer - sorry it's not a free call. :evil:

what.. ?

Quote

Basically - I was saying - maybe people should contact Andrew Patten for the final answer and not speculate on what their brigade, group or region may interpret as the answer - or their definition of what they want, need or expect :-o

oh....  Well, you would think the directive coming from a group officer would be pretty much it.. right.. ??   ppfftt...  Pity I have heard 20 different directives... Whats to say when you ring you won't get told something, and the next person who rings gets told something else.. ?


But, i see your point.

Ok I tried Andrew Patten, he is no longer at State HQ, he is Region 1 ROPO, he had that job before the volunteer came out, so I tried HQ again, there is a new bloke looking after it but can't seem to track down who it is, will keep you posted.

Didnt you love playing hide and seek when you were a kid? lol

It looks PBI will now be supplied to nearly all B.A. Operators by June 2006. The premier today made the official announcement that the Government are putting in nearly $2 million to bring everyone up to scratch with PBI and Proban.

Apparently there are 1500 BA operators without PBI and they are purchasing 1230 sets at a cost of $1.556 million.

1574 sets of new Proban Wildland PPE is also being purchased at a cost of $394,000.

$1.495 million is coming from the Community Emergency Services Fund and the remaining $455,000 is coming from CFS funds.

I guess this answers our questions about who was going to pay for the new gear. I'm kind of happy my brigade waited and hasn't purchased any PBI yet, looks like it might not come out of our budget now  :-)

that is..... FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

well done Mr. Rann..

YES about time someone started to help out. :-D

now of course the question is.. will certain brigades that bought the gear out of there own pocket be re-imbursed?? or screwed over??

Does every CFS member get new PPE or just the BA operators with this new grant? 

ALso, what is the difference between proban, PBI and PPE?

P.S
I only joined the CFS in October so am not up to scratch with all the lingo. :roll:

Quote from: P_F on January 03, 2006, 12:10:49 PMDoes every CFS member get new PPE or just the BA operators with this new grant?  ALso, what is the difference between proban, PBI and PPE?

First Off Welcome Aboard P_F,

Information Regarding PBI Can Be Found Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolyBenzImidazole_fiber)

Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Is The Type Of Equipment You Have EG, Proban, Nomex, PBI.

Quote from: CyberCitizen on January 03, 2006, 02:00:49 PM

Quote from: P_F on January 03, 2006, 12:10:49 PMDoes every CFS member get new PPE or just the BA operators with this new grant?  ALso, what is the difference between proban, PBI and PPE?

First Off Welcome Aboard P_F,

Information Regarding PBI Can Be Found Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolyBenzImidazole_fiber)

Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Is The Type Of Equipment You Have EG, Proban, Nomex, PBI.

cheers CC

I mis wrote my question a bit there, as obviously all gear is PPE.  But that doesnt matter as I have the answer that was needed, thankyou.

Below is a Media Release we came across.

Quote$1.95 MILLION "MAKE-OVER" TO KEEP ALL CFS VOLUNTEERS SAFER ON THE JOB

All of South Australia's Country Fire Service volunteers will be outfitted with the latest Personal Protective Equipment this year, at a cost of $1.95 million dollars.

The Rann Government has approved an additional $1,495,00 from the Community Emergency Services Fund to meet this cost. The remainder is made up by uncommitted CFS funds of $455,000.

The upgrade follows a CFS audit of equipment levels and age, which found that an estimated 1500 CFS volunteers are currently using outdated or "older style" equipment or clothing.

"This means all 10,500 volunteers will be outfitted with the latest breathing apparatus equipment and protective clothing," says Premier Rann.

" Our CFS volunteers demonstrate a remarkable commitment, 24 hours a day/365 days a year, helping the community and this government is equally committed to ensuring they are properly resourced."

This upgrade will provide:
 Proban Wildland Fire Fighter Personal Protective Clothing for 1,574 fire fighters at a cost of $394,000 by the end of February.
 Breathing Apparatus Personal Protective Equipment for 1,230 fire fighters at a cost of $1.556 million, by the end of June.

CFS Chief Officer, Euan Ferguson, says up-to-date clothing and equipment will maximise the personal safety of fire fighters.

"Over recent fire seasons we've had 4 fire fighters suffer runs to the neck, ears or face, because they were wearing "old style" protective clothing when caught in extreme radiant heat situations.

"This update sends a message that the State Government, the CFS and the fire industry are serious about safety."

Premier Rann says part of South Australia's strategic plan is to increase the number of volunteer participation in South Australia from 38% in 2000 to 50% within 10 years.

"Hopefully by improving the resources and the safety of volunteers around the State more and more people will be encouraged to become involved."

The Premier was speaking at Adelaide Airport today, where two of the latest additions to the State's fire fighting fleet officially came on line today.

The $3.5 million Agusta A119 heli tankers, also known as "Koalas", showed off their impressive firebombing power last month at the official opening of the new $200,000 Mt Crawford Airstrip.

David Cant, CFS Manager of Aviation Services, says the Agustas have already proven their worth

"As part of the funding arrangement with the National Aerial Firefighting Centre we were able to bring the aircraft were brought on-line ahead of their contract period for short periods," says Mr Cant.

"On the 23rd December they were used, along with our fixed wing fire bombers, on bushfires near Nairne and on the outskirts of Murray Bridge.

" In the Murray Bridge fire, an aircraft was actually being used for air attack supervision when the fire started to encroach on houses.

"The helitanker converted to a firebombing role and is credited with stopping the fire at the back fence of a number of properties.

"This demonstrates the flexibility in the multi-function role of these aircraft."

The Agusta A119 helitankers:
 Have a fitted 1200 litre belly tank "Simplex" fire bombing system.
 Can self-fill and can fill from any open water source in approximately 50- 60 seconds.
 Have a 120 litre fire suppressant concentrate reservoir enabling to inject this suppressant directly in flight, to enhance its fire suppressing capability.
 Are safe to operate near houses due to their slower speed and accuracy.
 Are contracted to Heli Air, which is a South Australian, based Australian owned company.

The overall cost is $586,000 for the two aircraft plus operating charges. Cost in the first year is $293000 per aircraft for an 84-day period (3 months) for standing charge, half of which is covered by the Federal Government.

The State Government contributes the other half , plus all operating expenses, ($1000 per hour per aircraft.)

This is just part of the State Government's $2.4 million dollar commitment to boost aerial fire fighting resources, but Premier Rann says its vital the community also climbs on board.

"We've already had a tense start to the bushfire season, with dozens of fires across the state – surely that's a wakeup call for property owners in high risk areas such as the Adelaide Hills.

"I'm extremely fearful that the worst is yet to come and I have no patience for any property owners who aren't properly prepared by now.

"The City of Mitcham alone has issued 38 $160 fines to property owners who failed to clear their land after being put on notice – that is 38 too many."

"And the Adelaide Hills Council will be inspecting 33 properties tomorrow. If they haven't cleaned up, as required, the owners will be slapped with a fine.

"Cleaning gutters, clearing yards of debris and having a bushfire plan are simple things everyone can do to help make the job of our CFS volunteers easier and safer."

*Improving the safety of South Australians, enriching the community through volunteer groups and activities and attracting people who wish to contribute to the State Community are all part of South Australia's Strategic Plan.

Quote"The City of Mitcham alone has issued 38 $160 fines to property owners who failed to clear their land after being put on notice – that is 38 too many."

"And the Adelaide Hills Council will be inspecting 33 properties tomorrow. If they haven't cleaned up, as required, the owners will be slapped with a fine.

Good To See They Are Taking Action, The CFS Has Received Alot Of Blame Beacuse Of The Fires & That People Were Not Prepared, Some Of Them Still Not, Hopefully These Fines Will Help People Take Note That It Is Also Their Responsibilty.

Quote from: mattb on January 02, 2006, 03:01:26 PM
Apparently there are 1500 BA operators without PBI and they are purchasing 1230 sets at a cost of $1.556 million.

1574 sets of new Proban Wildland PPE is also being purchased at a cost of $394,000.

Is this going to be the new standard - PBI and proban?
If so, what is happening to nomex - it is so much nicer than proban and it is much more versatile.

PBI Gold will ONLY be given to BA operators.

I believe the Proban will be for rural incidents / non-BA operators. 

However i don't see a problem with using current nomex at rural fires, no need to go buy NEW proban if the nomex is currently still appropriate for rural incidents.

SA firefighter's are happy and are recieviong new uniforms but it seems our neighbours, Victoria are not.  From todays Advertiser

Wednesday January 4 2006
"Meanwhile in Victoria, firefighters have threatened to walk off the job during the busy summer months and the Commonwealth Games in dispute over safety.
The United Firefighters Union said uniforms failed to meet national and international standards."

:oops:
What kind of uniforms are they wearing, it seems Mr Bracks needs to take a leaf out of Mr Rann's book

So what about groups that have gone out and bought the PBI gold gear,will they get money back from CFS????Its good that the goverment is going to give CFS the money but also keep in mind the number of members that still wear the old gear with no stripping on it as was the case at the burra fire on TV the other night.....

Quote from: rescue5271 on January 04, 2006, 03:13:48 PM
Its good that the goverment is going to give CFS the money but also keep in mind the number of members that still wear the old gear with no stripping on it as was the case at the burra fire on TV the other night.....

eh?? thats where the proban is going bill....

If PBI can cause heat stress to people just standing outside a burning house and is very very hot, wouldnt it be worse in 400celsius house fire heat???


I think the heat from today is making me think to much, very slow hot boring day.

The idea is that you won't be in the house for more than 30mins because your B.A cylinder won't last more than that anyway.

Plus your in the shade inside a structure fire..... :-P :lol:

Quote from: P_F on January 19, 2006, 03:26:21 PM
If PBI can cause heat stress to people just standing outside a burning house and is very very hot, wouldnt it be worse in 400celsius house fire heat???

The PBI Gold is designed to protect you from radiant heat, just as much as ambient heat (convection). Hence, inside a house fire, you'll last longer, because the heat takes longer to reach you through all the gear. ;) The moisture barrier also protects you from being burnt by steam (probably the most common cause of fire-fighter burns). 
Ask anyone whose done the Compartment fire behavior course with PBI Gold whether they would want to do it with nomex. I know even though it was stinking hot to wear, when I was in those crates, i was incredibly grateful for it! :)

Quote from: CFS_firey on January 19, 2006, 04:57:27 PM
Ask anyone whose done the Compartment fire behavior course with PBI Gold whether they would want to do it with nomex. I know even though it was stinking hot to wear, when I was in those crates, i was incredibly grateful for it! :)

It was handy having the PBI for the other drills as well..... was a cool day, and very nice not to get drenched practicing gas cooling and tactical entries!

How many Brigades have actually had fittings and or taken delivery of their new PBI gold as a gift from the CFS and Government, and did ALL of your BA wearers get the new gear?

We havent heard a thing... and noone in my brigade/group will tell me anything.. so who knows... we may have had a dodgy pulled. im not happy  :x

All we have been told is that lion will be coming out to do fittings. But as to when who knows, they suggested that all the PBI gear would be issued by june?(was that this year?) I think they had better get a move on cause its already feb and we all know how long things take to happen.

mmm... i think we may have been screwed over.

Ive noticed lots of pager messages being sent about fitting sessions though....

They cant screw CFS over hwen it was publicly announced.  That would make real bad publicity for the government to do that.

Remember they are purchasing over 1000 sets of PBI, this would take some time, coordination and maufacturing time. Seeing as the announcement was only a few months ago and we have had a very busy season so far, I'm not suprised that there would be a delay.

Quote from: P F on February 01, 2006, 11:55:24 AM
They cant screw CFS over hwen it was publicly announced.  That would make real bad publicity for the government to do that.

ill re=phrase... being screwed over, by our group.

Quote from: medevac on February 01, 2006, 12:16:38 PM

Quote from: P F on February 01, 2006, 11:55:24 AM
They cant screw CFS over hwen it was publicly announced.  That would make real bad publicity for the government to do that.

ill re=phrase... being screwed over, by our group.

okay

Did the government give the CFS money to buy PBI or they are working with CFS to get it supplied.  Im sure that they would make sure any money they give is used apporpriately for what they intend it to be used upon.

My brigade / group was fitted last year...

Quote from: Firefrog on February 01, 2006, 12:13:49 PM
Remember they are purchasing over 1000 sets of PBI, this would take some time, coordination and manufacturing time. Seeing as the announcement was only a few months ago and we have had a very busy season so far, I'm not surprised that there would be a delay.

From what I understand, Lion Apparel already have all the PBI Gold sitting in their warehouse, they are just waiting for the money... All the CFS has to do is send them a cheque, and they already have the measurements and addresses of everyone whose been fitted.

well it is election time :evil:

it is? :?

Quote from: medevac on February 01, 2006, 04:35:43 PM
it is? :?

State election should be next month

Quote from: strikeathird on February 01, 2006, 12:33:10 PM
My brigade / group was fitted last year...

Had 3 different dates to be fitted last year all were cancelled by Lion. Not sure of the reason for this but it would have made life easier now if they went ahead.

Quote from: CFS_firey on February 02, 2006, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: medevac on February 01, 2006, 04:35:43 PM
it is? :?

State election should be next month

aaaahhh...