as most of you would be well aware by now CFS no longer has GRN radio's that where set up for training new members as part of BFF1. these radios have now been removed from training and are now being used in new appliances that are coming online. So does this mean that CFS no longer has spare radios at all. So what is going to replace the GRN when it does need replacing????
http://users.chariot.net.au/~mattb/scan/latest.htm according to the info on this link it looks like they have ran out of spare GRN radios :|
So why did we get a blasting this week about needing more members to do GRN training as it is not included in Level 1?
We have had 8 members do level 1 in the past 10 months and Region is complaining they have not done the required GRN course as in level 1 they say is only communication not GRN? What are going to do to keep them happy?
When i did BFF1 at start of the year, GRN radio operation was a part of it. There are two booklets covering them (additional to the folder), and we were trained in the operation of them. and anyway..its a 30min process to learn how to use them hehe.
It is a part of the course, so it should be covered. if not, why not.
you could always ask your G.O. or regional office...
FYI there are still GRN training sets, my group borrowed 2 the week before last.
Used the 5000 model in NSW recently, cool bit of gear the way they had them set up. When we have a radio go down, we don't get a replacement - at one stage we had no hand helds at all. Hopefully new radios won't be to far away (in government terms anyway :-D). And when we do hopefully they will be like NSW, able to talk to any service with the push off a button. The current setup is very poor, we need the ability to talk to each other without requesting a multi agency. cheers
Quote from: chook on October 13, 2007, 07:14:29 PM
Used the 5000 model in NSW recently, cool bit of gear the way they had them set up. When we have a radio go down, we don't get a replacement - at one stage we had no hand helds at all. Hopefully new radios won't be to far away (in government terms anyway :-D). And when we do hopefully they will be like NSW, able to talk to any service with the push off a button. The current setup is very poor, we need the ability to talk to each other without requesting a multi agency. cheers
Does that include the ability to talk to McDonalds or Kentucky Fried Chicken drive thrus so we can order food :lol: :roll:
Sorry i couldnt resist having a laugh :-P :lol:
No worries you could only but hope - Pizza Haven too
What talkgroups will they be on :lol:
Just make it simple & call it FOOD!
Quote from: Zippy_1358 on October 13, 2007, 04:59:38 PM
When i did BFF1 at start of the year, GRN radio operation was a part of it. There are two booklets covering them (additional to the folder), and we were trained in the operation of them. and anyway..its a 30min process to learn how to use them hehe.
It is a part of the course, so it should be covered. if not, why not.
GRN TRAINING IS NOT PART OF THE BFF1. Some brigades/groups have been doing it as part of the BFF1 training programme. Which means it is an adition to the programme. I personally do not see how you could teach GRN Training correctly in 30 mins as their are 3 different modules to do: 1. SAGRN Network which includes a 10 minute video with Keith Conlon. 2. SAGRN Mobile radio. 3. SAGRN Portable radio. Just doing these sections correctly with the CFS specifics of the radio systems would at least make the training go for a minimum of 60 minutes at least. (MAYBE THIS IS WHY WE HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH THE SAGRN NETWORK. WHEN YOU GUYS ARE SAYING IT IS THE SYSTEM WHEN IN FACT IT IS PROBABLY OPERATOR ERROR DUE TO THE LACK OF CORRECT TRAINING BEING PERFORMED IN THE TRAINING WHICH IS SUPPOSE TO BE DELIVERED.) :? :-o :x
I heard the same thing today that you are unable to use the training kits as well due to the training units are now being placed into fire appliances. But think about it you do not need a training kit to deliver the training. I think that you all have the CFS specific GRN radios in your station and appliances so you can use them. Might be a bit harder to do but is quite achievable. As a SAGRN instructor I have been delivering this way of training for the last 12 months from appliances and stations and it seems to work better as crew members can actually relate to the radio units which are in your station and appliances. Instead of having training kits which have handpieces with numeric keypad functions which you will never use on a fire appliance. :-)
Yep your right, our basic comms course goes for about a day. We have some suit case radios from state when they run a course. But we still use the units radios when they are not broken that is :evil:. We would not run it as part of a basic rescue course - too much other stuff. cheers
ok thanks for the greater understanding LTdan, taken on board ;)
my opinion is that since GRN radios are a commonly used item by the brigades...every member will have to use a GRN radio eventually...so it being common training i.e BFF1 would be taught early on.
In terms of the 'system of communication' in the services. Something that i think is missing in the system is the whole Multiagency communications training, especially a more solid way for SES to talk to CFS.
Ideally SES brigades should be able to switch to all the CFS channels, hence on Bravo 1 they get sent to.. GRN-CFS136 through a Mt Lofty group station. Just like Mets can move to 124 and be under the control of CFS groups till released back to 150.
Interoperability is the word im thinking of. :)
May be CFS should look at removing GRN radio's from brigade stations and that way all comms should go via the group base this in itself would free up GRN radios...Our group as does all of region 5 do GRN training as part of BFF1 and it works well.The training sets are good to use as if you are doing GRN training at a remote spot or in a area where there is only one or two grns they are there to cover teh short fall...
It is not only CFS that are having the shortfalls in teh GRN radios,with radio and pager break downs on the rise CFS will have to look at a better replacement for these.
QuoteMay be CFS should look at removing GRN radio's from brigade stations and that way all comms should go via the group base this in itself would free up GRN radios.
aint that simple, would be great...but that means youd be calling two brigades to a cat up tree :roll: what im getting at is the severity of the job warranting group base to take over comms...while the primary incident brigade station might already have someone prepared to take comms. No use having no one taking comms in the initial 45mins of a going domestic.
It should be going from: Adelaide Fire > 1st brigade to come online > then upgraded to Group base.
theres been a case of 2 incidents occuring within my area within 25mins. First incident was ran from our own station...RCR with entrap. The next incident..RCR rollover..we had to call our group station to assist with a crew...them responding allowed us to let them take comms for that incident...separated by Talkgroups (pri and sec) to keep the occurance book clean and tidy :)
Back to the point...its worth stations having a grn radio...for many reasons...my opinion: two radios at busy brigades to utilise as many of the respondees when they were prepared to go to the job and couldnt. :)
End ramble --some of this is my own opinion--
I'm glad that its not just us having radio/pager issues, thought it was just my guys being careless :wink:. Whats worse is you send them away for repair & they come back with the same faults :|.
The idea of brigades/ units not having a base station, would that mean that for every response group base would be activated? And I like the idea of our radios being able to talk to you guys, I don't know why GRN was set up the way it is. Earlier in the year we were using boats to help you guys fight a fire (long story), had to carry two hand helds which was fine except my ground crew and other units coming in to assist had no idea what was going on!
Hard to run a relay station in a boat with pumps running etc. This led to a number of misunderstandings, which could have been avoided. Also the command channel was choked with traffic, very hard to get messages through. Anyway hopefully when the new system arrives this sought of issue will be addressed, including people thinking that radios are like mobile phones - just have long chats! cheers
Quote from: Zippy_1358 on October 14, 2007, 07:51:08 AM
QuoteMay be CFS should look at removing GRN radio's from brigade stations and that way all comms should go via the group base this in itself would free up GRN radios.
aint that simple, would be great...but that means youd be calling two brigades to a cat up tree :roll: what im getting at is the severity of the job warranting group base to take over comms...while the primary incident brigade station might already have someone prepared to take comms. No use having no one taking comms in the initial 45mins of a going domestic.
It should be going from: Adelaide Fire > 1st brigade to come online > then upgraded to Group base.
theres been a case of 2 incidents occuring within my area within 25mins. First incident was ran from our own station...RCR with entrap. The next incident..RCR rollover..we had to call our group station to assist with a crew...them responding allowed us to let them take comms for that incident...separated by Talkgroups (pri and sec) to keep the occurance book clean and tidy :)
Back to the point...its worth stations having a grn radio...for many reasons...my opinion: two radios at busy brigades to utilise as many of the respondees when they were prepared to go to the job and couldnt. :)
End ramble --some of this is my own opinion--
In my opinion, a station should only turn into a "Group Base" when the incident reaches second alarm or above.
I laugh
every time a single brigade goes to say an alarm, and the station calls them self "Blah Base".. When really they are "Blah Station".. (Until that incident escalates and the incident requires the opening of the Base).
laugh every time a single brigade goes to say an alarm, and the station calls them self "Blah Base".. When really they are "Blah Station".. (Until that incident escalates and the incident requires the opening of the Base).
I know when some brigades where thought the Progress Association and we are talking way back before the 1960s the Staton was called " Blah Base" as the station I am with was started in 1952 and I have found some of there reports. Old habits are hard to get out off.
Quote from: ltdan on October 13, 2007, 09:57:31 PM
Quote from: Zippy_1358 on October 13, 2007, 04:59:38 PM
When i did BFF1 at start of the year, GRN radio operation was a part of it. There are two booklets covering them (additional to the folder), and we were trained in the operation of them. and anyway..its a 30min process to learn how to use them hehe.
It is a part of the course, so it should be covered. if not, why not.
GRN TRAINING IS NOT PART OF THE BFF1. Some brigades/groups have been doing it as part of the BFF1 training programme. Which means it is an adition to the programme. I personally do not see how you could teach GRN Training correctly in 30 mins as their are 3 different modules to do: 1. SAGRN Network which includes a 10 minute video with Keith Conlon. 2. SAGRN Mobile radio. 3. SAGRN Portable radio. Just doing these sections correctly with the CFS specifics of the radio systems would at least make the training go for a minimum of 60 minutes at least. (MAYBE THIS IS WHY WE HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH THE SAGRN NETWORK. WHEN YOU GUYS ARE SAYING IT IS THE SYSTEM WHEN IN FACT IT IS PROBABLY OPERATOR ERROR DUE TO THE LACK OF CORRECT TRAINING BEING PERFORMED IN THE TRAINING WHICH IS SUPPOSE TO BE DELIVERED.) :? :-o :x
I heard the same thing today that you are unable to use the training kits as well due to the training units are now being placed into fire appliances. But think about it you do not need a training kit to deliver the training. I think that you all have the CFS specific GRN radios in your station and appliances so you can use them. Might be a bit harder to do but is quite achievable. As a SAGRN instructor I have been delivering this way of training for the last 12 months from appliances and stations and it seems to work better as crew members can actually relate to the radio units which are in your station and appliances. Instead of having training kits which have handpieces with numeric keypad functions which you will never use on a fire appliance. :-)
I agree with you LtDan, GRN training is not part of the BFF1. I done my BFF1 last year and on the last day, our last moduel from the folder was communication; then we had GRN Operations and Use, that went for about an hour, if I remember correctly.
If people are not being taught correctly how to use the equipment, then we can not expect it to last for the length of time that it is suppose to.
Our station becomes Mundoo base only when there are 2 or more brigades involved.
GRN also runs smoother when you dont use it like a telephone :-P
Exactly
Quote from: SA Firey on October 14, 2007, 07:32:41 PM
GRN also runs smoother when you dont use it like a telephone :-P
please explain :?
In other words stop talking for hours on end.......as for adelaide fire doing radio trafffic they dont wont to do it and in the past when SOCC was running they did not mind till a group base came on air....
Instead of short sharp messages that get to the point, Long rambling discussions that tie up the network, stop messages getting through and sound unprofessional.
Quote from: chook on October 14, 2007, 08:28:55 PM
Instead of short sharp messages that get to the point, Long rambling discussions that tie up the network, stop messages getting through and sound unprofessional.
Chook,
I do not totally agree with you, when you activate the network, you are on the network therefore talking on the network will not change the factor of delays to the extent you guys keep whining about. Yes it is correct that this excessive chatter does not help the network, but please understand the non emergency services perfrom a lot more chatter than the emergency services.
The network can handle this chatter this is not the issue.
The problem which keeps being highlighted are grn radio's being turned on and monitoring channels when not required to. And queuing up the radio network when you have been told to wait on the network to talk. When in fact operators just keep pressing the PTT button trying to talk, therefore queuing and back logging the network.
too many active talkgroups at the same time on the same tower is the problem i believe chook is talking about. But ive been thinking further...and i believe other nearby towers could be accessible to use...just with a lower quailty (more scracty) connection ;).
So...its just a matter of keeping conversations Brief, to keep the tower frequencies clear as much as possible. its rare for situations where 6-8 people are talking at the same time on 8 different talkgroups in the same area :P
Keep the radios off when not in use for Operations or Training, clear cut and simple. :wink:
lol im tired...shout at me if im incorrect :roll:
ltdan, I have a very good understanding of how the GRN network operates. I know about the fact that every set that is turned on takes up resources on the network. And you have a very clear idea of what we are talking about, however I would not call it whining when excessive chatter causes a) serious operational problems, b) important messages not being passed in a timely manner & c)potentially puts crews at risk. It is totally irrelevant that others have more chatter than we do, just as it is irrelevant that the military have far less chatter (12 years including training as a radio op)- different circumstances.
If what needs to be communicated can't put into one short sentence, then mobiles are the go (or simplex). Partly Zippy I know that we have a plan that when we go operational our whole region will be on the same talk group, not sure when that will happen but. cheers
chook, this chatter would be no different and the same problems would occur on a simplex channel/radio. This issue has been around for years and it varies from brigade to brigade, group to group, region to region. (It also has been discussed in this type of forum before.) But this is not the reason of the network failing at critical times.
QuoteBut this is not the reason of the network failing at critical times.
maybe itd be appropriate to give an insite to what is actually the problem your talking about.
Yep understand network busies, referring to simplex was for those who want to have extended chats - the operational channel is kept clear.
Hypothetical for you, 4 people isolated from main group - got to fireground by boat. Two firies two SES, Two firies have got a couple of 38's out, one SES looking after flotation pump & liaising with SES ground crew( in a nearby town)& CFS base, one SES operating the boat. Firies ask for more hose as they are making good headway, try to get on to CFS base-takes ten minutes due to other traffic. Another ten minutes to get an answer, then more time is lost going over to the other side of river to find more hose, get back to crew, connect hose and start pump. By this time opportunity is lost and crew withdrawn.
Thats what I'm talking about, don't worry our service is just as bad. As you said depends on unit, region etc, that is why we are worried about a regional talk group - nothing gained as base stations will still be on, only less talkgroups to monitor. I know what you are saying ltdan, thats why training people properly in the first place is so important & shouldn't be rushed.
cheers
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to wait to get a message out, but because some idiotic brigade member can't stop talking and start using pro-words, the whole process has taken far too long. In some cases this has put lives in danger.
Cheers thats what I'm takin about. Like the term for the :-D
Quote from: 6793264 on October 15, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to wait to get a message out, but because some brigade member can't stop talking and start using pro-words, the whole process has taken far too long. In some cases this has put lives in danger.
LMAO
EDIT: Quoted language
The fact that we CFS tend to hunt in packs makes us our own worst
enemy for radio comms.
That said, seems to me that the comms plan as laid out in the
Operations Handbook should mostly work ok, so long as we actually
adhere to it (have we ever done so?) and:
- strike teams don't import their home TGs into the fireground,
- appliances stay off the IC TG
- Sector commanders & IC recognise VHF congestion & get additional
channels allocated sooner rather than later.
What say others ?
Also, isn't there a portable GRN cell can be wheeled out to big jobs ?
In my view there are two issues, First the infrastructure is limited by the number of available frequencies on a tower.
And secondly the users who need good radio discipline to use the available resources appropriately.
Many users don't understand that they can tie up network resources by monitoring talk groups using GRN handhelds for example.
I know it is common practice for some officers to monitor neighbouring groups or even distant groups jobs, under the guise of "we might get called so need to know what's going on" :roll: :roll: :roll:
If a towers has 8 frequencies and you have CFS, SES, SAAS, SAPOL, Parks, etc, etc, all using several talk groups you can consume eight frequencies very quickly. Now add to the mix someone monitoring other traffic and no wonder there is congestion.
I have done the GRN course and that is exactly whats said. However one thing that confuses me is,
If a group car is on say, 126 then one cell on the nearest tower is being used up by 126 so if any other appliances come and use 126 there will be no further cells taken up. ie if one appliance is on 136 then they all can be and still only use the one cell.
Thats because a talkgroup only requires 1 frequency. Remember that you arent using a frequency when the talkgroup is idle, all the radios on the talkgroup are sent to the Control Frequency during idle times.
Press that PTT, all the radios get sent to a random frequency at nearest tower to them...hence....it could take up multiple towers.
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 15, 2007, 10:44:37 PM
Quote from: 6793264 on October 15, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to wait to get a message out, but because some brigade member can't stop talking and start using pro-words, the whole process has taken far too long. In some cases this has put lives in danger.
LMAO
EDIT: Language
Mods.. - The lanuage wasnt my posting, it was a quote of another post.. Maybe fix the original.. ;)
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 20, 2007, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 15, 2007, 10:44:37 PM
Quote from: 6793264 on October 15, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to wait to get a message out, but because some brigade member can't stop talking and start using pro-words, the whole process has taken far too long. In some cases this has put lives in danger.
LMAO
EDIT: Language
Good point there, badly written by the professional.
Mods.. - The lanuage wasnt my posting, it was a quote of another post.. Maybe fix the original.. ;)
Quote from: safireservice2009 on October 20, 2007, 10:32:49 PM
Good point there, badly written by the professional.
Ease up champ.
Quote from: StopCallKing on October 20, 2007, 01:39:51 AM
Also, isn't there a portable GRN cell can be wheeled out to big jobs ?
Yep, big special construct trailer that contains generator, aerial mast & GRN repeater radios. Sitting in a SES shed in northern Adelaide metro area, ready for deployment by volunteers.
Just need to ask for it...
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 20, 2007, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: RescueHazmat on October 15, 2007, 10:44:37 PM
Quote from: 6793264 on October 15, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to wait to get a message out, but because some brigade member can't stop talking and start using pro-words, the whole process has taken far too long. In some cases this has put lives in danger.
LMAO
EDIT: Language
Mods.. - The lanuage wasnt my posting, it was a quote of another post.. Maybe fix the original.. ;)
Noted Rescue... Unfortunately modifying the original post doesnt propogate to places where quotes have occured. Will modify the note to reflect this.
No probs Mike.
Might just want to re-check that original.. ^^ .. :)
The new SOP 10.14 is now in the hands of captains of brigades, so I would make sure you all read it,as there are some intersting changes to talkgroups, ie TG123 when traversing outside your group response area. :wink:
yes it's been out roughly a week now but you might want to read it again as TG123 is not featured in there. You may be thinking of 125 but that is the regional management talkgroup (between region, group base/officers, IMT) not generally for appliances.