In other threads there seems to be some debate on how many trucks to sent to call outs. what are your brigade's/ groups policy's on this?
my brigade it is as many trucks as we get crew for.
my brigade's is mostly "up to" 2 trucks for a single job (with other brigades to support), to keep the remaining truck available for a further incident.
Within the local response area - whatever is required - 1 or 2
Elsewhere within the group - whatever is requested - usually 1 only.
Anywhere else - 1 only. (unless the second truck also responds
because it has enough crew and the fire or whatever is nearly in
our area. In which case there will be 2.)
If this is not sufficiently confusing, I can reword it longer &
more convoluted ;-)
Oh, and if I get on any appliance, it will usually not be required.
This is why I am
stopcallking
Anyhing in Naracoorte township is Naracoorte brigade anything outside of the township is two brigade's it depends on the type of job and where it is.... Having said that I have noticed over the past week that when MFS page they are only sending one brigade to jobs does not matter if its a MVA or car fire not sure why this is going on and I would hope that groups are having there say about this as summer is fast coming....
IF thats happening...and you believe its a job that requires more than ur brigade. get onto 124 and ask for the next nearest brigade to respond when you acknowledge the page....please for goodness sake, not ask for the next brigade in your group (when ur on the border).
CFS area - both our units.
MFS area - Just pumper.
Aren't they one and the same?
Quote from: 6793264 on September 02, 2007, 01:50:58 PM
Aren't they one and the same?
No not under original zoning. Port Noarlunga South was MFS area dual response with CFS and Noarlunga Downs was CFS area dual response with MFS.
Leaving, Seaford, Seaford Rise, Seaford meadows, Old Noarlunga and Moana CFS area.
Though atm MFS and MV are on dual response with us over crewing issues that were fixed months ago. We have asked for response plans to return to the original state but as of yet they wont change it.
So for any incident in our area you will have Seaford, MV and C'downs MFS on initial response. Thats one big waste of resourcing.
You do realise that the only way in which your response plans are going to change is with SAMFS turning out to everything in their (currently your) area.
I'd like to know how you can fix crewing issues in 6 mothns... Got a bunch of green probies on the trucks or something?
The amount of trucks for a job depends on the size & scale of the incident itself :-)
Quote from: 6793264 on September 02, 2007, 04:36:17 PM
You do realise that the only way in which your response plans are going to change is with SAMFS turning out to everything in their (currently your) area.
I'd like to know how you can fix crewing issues in 6 mothns... Got a bunch of green probies on the trucks or something?
Easy really. Had two experienced ex CFS members join up both available days and are both drivers we also had another 4 members sign up and 4 long term cadets become fireies.
May be seaford will take the guys who wish to transfer into that area but a neighbouring brigade have closed their books.
Depends what type of job but I ususally use the following formula. This is also was has been placed into our up and cominng SACAD response system.
Make sure 2 stations are responding to any incident in our response area.
MVA with Entrapment in our response area respond 2 rescue brigades
Domestic 2 stations + BWC
Grassy 2 stations + BWC.
Brigade encourage to respond 2 appliances from station to any job within our fire response area. Or respond second appliance to any job out of our response area on request of IC
not having a go at ANY CFS brigade here but why not respond SAMFS as a dual response into CFS area for more incidents... I know people will see it as "Job stealing" but the reality is that NO CFS brigade out there will ever garuntee a crew and that's just the downside of being volunteers but it's a fact. And I for one would sure prefer to stand in front of the coroner saying "We have done everything we could to save this person from their burning house" as opposed to "Sorry Mr Coroner, but it was on our side of the line, I know we didn't get a truck out the door and a red truck was just down the road but it was our area, not my problem they are dead.".....
MY VIEWS ONLY!
Stefan
'fully agree' with you stefan.
work with everyone not againtst them I say !!
Quote from: ltdan on September 02, 2007, 09:01:36 PM
MVA with Entrapment in our response area respond 2 rescue brigades
Why is this? Apart from backup if one brigade can't respond, I don't understand how this is good for a 1st alarm rescue...
For an MVA in my area, its 1 or 2 appliances (Fire Cover and Traffic Control). And a RCR brigade response, which if it happens to be Lobethal, we will soon be supporting them with RCR trained members.
I personally think that any MVA, be single or multiple vehicle that has more than one person reported trapped should be automatically a 1st and 2nd rescue response.
there are actually written SOPS for all 'generic response types'.... that define how many appliances should be sent and type of appliances as a minimumresponse....
there is no limit on what can be sent to a first alarm incident, but i guess it should come down to common sense for some part of it..
in our group area we respond two stations to all incident types (exception to rubbish fires, severe wx and animal rescues i think)and rescue to every MVA (as per the RCRD)...
and the general rule, depending on crewing and incident type, is both appliances in primary area if we can crew them, and outside of primary area one appliance unless further resources requested by IC. we quite often have our second appliance on 'standby at station' for responses outside of our primary until it is determined by IC that no more resources will be required.
works well and covers our arsses
Agree
Quote from: mack on September 03, 2007, 03:00:37 PM
there is no limit on what can be sent to a first alarm incident, but i guess it should come down to common sense for some part of it..
Yes there is, as it then becomes higher than a first alarm. You don't have 6 pumps at a job and still call it a first alarm.
Quote from: Mundcfs on September 03, 2007, 02:53:13 PM
I personally think that any MVA, be single or multiple vehicle that has more than one person reported trapped should be automatically a 1st and 2nd rescue response.
I think you'll find that in the Green Book, there are provisions for when additional rescue resources should be turned out. What on earth are another crew going to do on a single car where you already have a full crew working? Two cars, two entrapments, then yes, you should have two crews. One for each car.
Quote from: 6793264 on September 03, 2007, 04:53:22 PM
Quote from: mack on September 03, 2007, 03:00:37 PM
there is no limit on what can be sent to a first alarm incident, but i guess it should come down to common sense for some part of it..
Yes there is, as it then becomes higher than a first alarm. You don't have 6 pumps at a job and still call it a first alarm.
kind of thinking without typing there... or vice versa ;)
your right 6793264 - i kind of meant, there is no limit to how many resources can be dispatched from stations on the first alarm... kind of a brain fart.
Quote from: mack on September 03, 2007, 05:18:24 PM
Quote from: 6793264 on September 03, 2007, 04:53:22 PM
Quote from: mack on September 03, 2007, 03:00:37 PM
there is no limit on what can be sent to a first alarm incident, but i guess it should come down to common sense for some part of it..
Yes there is, as it then becomes higher than a first alarm. You don't have 6 pumps at a job and still call it a first alarm.
kind of thinking without typing there... or vice versa ;)
your right 6793264 - i kind of meant, there is no limit to how many resources can be dispatched from stations on the first alarm... kind of a brain fart.
And there lies the problem. Brigades should limit themselves based on their groups response plans. Two brigades responded to an MVA (non rescue) then one truck each is great!
mmmm common sense should play a big part, but unfortunately i think some people just see every jobs as a chance to go for a run with lights and sirens, so they just keep sending more trucks...
QuoteBrigades should limit themselves based on their groups response plans
i dont agree with you there...because callouts shouldnt be responded to just your own group...groups are made for training, management, funding reasons am i right???
The only "group only" response is a Strike Team i believe. If another fire like the one in March at bridgewater would to occur...i wouldnt be sending burnside till brigades closer to the incident are responded in all four directions.
On a fire ban day the number of trucks dispatched to a grass or scrub fire is anywhere between 3-5 pending on weather conditions :-)
Look if more trucks that is really necessary respond who cares. keep 1 K3 and use the extra crew. if you start saying "go home we don;t need you one truck is already there then one day nobody will turn up for calls." If i need assistance for whatever reason i don't really care if i get a whole group it is still help.
Quote from: Dezza on September 03, 2007, 05:41:20 PM
QuoteBrigades should limit themselves based on their groups response plans
i dont agree with you there...because callouts shouldnt be responded to just your own group...groups are made for training, management, funding reasons am i right???
The only "group only" response is a Strike Team i believe. If another fire like the one in March at bridgewater would to occur...i wouldnt be sending burnside till brigades closer to the incident are responded in all four directions.
Derek - "response plans" are not plans limiting a group to responding there own internal resources. a proper response plan should include other agencies as well as inter-group responses....
Robert - a TFb is auto 2nd alarm for any rural fire incident... so minimum 4 appliances
I hope there are "neighbouring-group" response plans too :-)
?
not sure what ya mean, or if ya just having a sly dig, lol.
each group is responsible for looking after there own areas using both there own and neighbouring group resources... these are group 'response plans'. they should be made of the closest most appropriate resoures, and in consultation with the neighbouring group.
Quote from: bittenyakka on September 03, 2007, 05:57:42 PM
Look if more trucks that is really necessary respond who cares. keep 1 K3 and use the extra crew. if you start saying "go home we don;t need you one truck is already there then one day nobody will turn up for calls." If i need assistance for whatever reason i don't really care if i get a whole group it is still help.
Mate, it just looks silly see multiple appliances turning up when they don't need to be. We tout an attempt at professionalism, yet look like dads army out for some excitement when the pager goes off.
And to clarify the term "Group response plans" I mean response plans that the group draws up. Of course I don't mean that you turn out the whole group first then look outside. If a group determines that it needs two brigades to be responded to *everything* to get the two appliances required, like many do, thats what that group does. If the group, such as Heysen (where Mt.Barker can crew two applainces by itself) determines that it only needs one brigade turned out, for two applainces then thats what that group does.
Its not only at the station that there needs to be a bit more common sense, these forums could do with a big dose.
Quote from: 6793264 on September 03, 2007, 08:40:57 PM
Quote from: bittenyakka on September 03, 2007, 05:57:42 PM
Look if more trucks that is really necessary respond who cares. keep 1 K3 and use the extra crew. if you start saying "go home we don;t need you one truck is already there then one day nobody will turn up for calls." If i need assistance for whatever reason i don't really care if i get a whole group it is still help.
Mate, it just looks silly see multiple appliances turning up when they don't need to be. We tout an attempt at professionalism, yet look like dads army out for some excitement when the pager goes off.
Don't we already look like dads army in our under funded over weight 24s? :-D if the reason we shouldn't allow more than 2 appliances to go is because it "looks silly" well please come up with a better reason. Because the day somebody dies and there was the chance they might not of if each brigade had brought their appliance that was on standby at the station. I will not want to be the one in court saying "i didn't respond them because it would have looked silly if it hadn't been a real fire"
Quote from: bittenyakka on September 03, 2007, 09:37:00 PM
Quote from: 6793264 on September 03, 2007, 08:40:57 PM
Quote from: bittenyakka on September 03, 2007, 05:57:42 PM
Look if more trucks that is really necessary respond who cares. keep 1 K3 and use the extra crew. if you start saying "go home we don;t need you one truck is already there then one day nobody will turn up for calls." If i need assistance for whatever reason i don't really care if i get a whole group it is still help.
Mate, it just looks silly see multiple appliances turning up when they don't need to be. We tout an attempt at professionalism, yet look like dads army out for some excitement when the pager goes off.
Don't we already look like dads army in our under funded over weight 24s? :-D if the reason we shouldn't allow more than 2 appliances to go is because it "looks silly" well please come up with a better reason. Because the day somebody dies and there was the chance they might not of if each brigade had brought their appliance that was on standby at the station. I will not want to be the one in court saying "i didn't respond them because it would have looked silly if it hadn't been a real fire"
You obviously have very little understanding about the way in which incidents work, especially in terms of the responding of resources.
Let say that it a nasty looking day in the middle of the fire danger season, the pagers go off, a reported grass fire in a know local bad area. Of course you are going send as many trucks per station as you can because in the case of a grass fire on a bad day, then yeah it does help to have as many appliances there as possible.
But how many times does that really happen? Not that often.
You seem to think that every incident has the ability to cause the four horsemen of the apocalypse to come storming down the main street with death carrying his sickle close behind. This is simply not the case.
A huge number of the jobs that the SACFS attend can be dealt with with a minimum of appliances. Most of the time, dual responding is only there to cover the possibility of one brigade being unable to turnout, or not having enough trained persons to respond correctly. Of course if you are a rescue brigade and need more operators, take that second truck.
Keep in mind that in terms of your argument that "Oh god if the whole group doesn't turn out, people will die" It takes your average CFS brigade 5 minutes to get out the door, 5 - 10 minutes traveling time to the job (stupidly larger in rural areas) add in a couple of minutes for Call receipt, not to mention that many fires don't get reported straight away and you are looking at the best part of 15-20 minutes. Just how well is that bloke stuck in a burning house going to be going? Yeah, not so well.
I know you're a young'un bittenyakka, and I felt the same way when I was younger, wanting to get on a truck, wanting to get to every job no matter how small. But its just not needed.
It so much easier to work with a smaller crew than every man and his dog.
Quote from: 6793264 on September 04, 2007, 08:32:23 AM
You seem to think that every incident has the ability to cause the four horsemen of the apocalypse to come storming down the main street with death carrying his sickle close behind. This is simply not the case.
"It's a Mr Death or something... he's come about the reaping"
(ignore me, please continue the pointless arguing)
Quote from: Darius on September 04, 2007, 08:43:42 AM
Quote from: 6793264 on September 04, 2007, 08:32:23 AM
You seem to think that every incident has the ability to cause the four horsemen of the apocalypse to come storming down the main street with death carrying his sickle close behind. This is simply not the case.
"It's a Mr Death or something... he's come about the reaping"
(ignore me, please continue the pointless arguing)
Nothings pointless when Mr. Death is involved. Now just imagine that SitRe(a)p...
Quote"5 - 10 minutes traveling time to the job (stupidly larger in rural areas)"
Keep in mind once you hit the freeway "A or M Class" or get onto the country roads "A&B Class"...uve got 80, 100km'h roads...therefore you can respond to a larger area. Especially in the Murray Mallee..drivers can go full throttle to incidents..and still be just around the P2 speedlimit lol...
6793264 i see your point that it is not needed to have a huge response to an alarm and emptying st20 to a rubbish fire is stupid. and minimising the workload on buisy brigades in this way is a good thing. :-)
But in smaller birigades why cant you just go? take the house fire in bradbury a few weeks ago where half of lofth group turned up. would you tell a small brigade like Bradbury who only see a house fire ~once a year,
"sorry you are a valued member of the community who has devoted tuime and effort to being trained but as we have already sent a truck you aren't needed"
This is a major diffrence in urban and not so urban brigades that needs to be understood from both sides of the hill :-)
with the 2 rescue crews to a MVA MFS is paging us out like that i have been to MVA's where we have had a second crew coming for rescue i know in SES if we have to persons traped in different cars we have to have a 2nd rescue crew coming as we can not work on two cars its imposible.
can you tell me why though MFS are sending two crews (one that has to travel more the 20mins) to MVA with NO ENTRAPMENTS. it seems funny that Hamley bridge are backing us up and freeling when Nuriootpa are colser then them.
any ideas????????
Quote from: 6793264 on September 03, 2007, 08:40:57 PM
Mate, it just looks silly see multiple appliances turning up when they don't need to be. We tout an attempt at professionalism, yet look like dads army out for some excitement when the pager goes off.
Agreed! There is nothing worse than an incident scene that is cluttered with unrequired people and appliances.
I've seen vehicle accidents (single car) where there are five CFS appliances on scene. Add that to two ambulances, two or three police cars and a towie... The scene becomes cluttered and people are unable to work unimpeded. This is particularly annoying when the path to the vehicle involved is blocked by several non-required appliances and people who need close access (extra ambulances, rescue appliances) aren't able to get close to the incident. Not to mention the increased traffic congestion that is caused by this number of appliances.
Same thing that can be said for structure fires. Everyone is tripping over everyone else's gear and there are 20 guys standing in a circle with their arms crossed chatting whilst the others are working. There is no need for that level of clutter at an incident. This is particularly relevant with rural properties with difficult access.
By all means respond all the resources NECESSARY to effectively and efficiently deal with an incident, but sending people for sightseeing is unnecessary. It can impede operations and unnecessarily put all crews at risk.
Quote from: sesroadcrashrescue on September 04, 2007, 11:23:57 AM
can you tell me why though MFS are sending two crews (one that has to travel more the 20mins) to MVA with NO ENTRAPMENTS. it seems funny that Hamley bridge are backing us up and freeling when Nuriootpa are colser then them.
any ideas????????
Can you clarify what you mean by 2 crews? They are required to respond both rescue and fire cover, which often come from different brigades...
This discussion has raised some interesting issues, not the least that it looks as though many brigades don't even know what response plans are, let alone follow them. Not exactly a criticism of a brigade, because in some rural areas I can see that response plans wouldn't be that important when you only have one appliance and only respond to 5 jobs a year, but some of the people on here come from busy brigades not that far from the CBD.
I am from a brigade where response plans are followed religiously, failure to do so results in a swift kick up the donkey from those further up the chain of command. So when I hear of brigades responding whatever they can to a first alarm rubbish fire or MVA just because they have the crew I am somewhat surprised.
In my brigade and group a rubbish fire is a single appliance response unless further upgraded by the Incident Controller, same with any single appliance incident (tree down, oil spill, vehicle fire, MVA with no entrapment, backyard burn etc etc etc)
We will only respond a second appliance to a single appliance incident priority two, and then normally at the request of the OIC - example is a vehicle fire in our rural area where there is no water - the second appliance will go P2, or an MVA on one of our country roads, our 14 will respond priority two to assist with traffic control.
Out of the 460 jobs we did last year I think we would have rolled a second appliance to maybe 150 of them, not because we didn't have the crew but because the incident didn't warrant it. Yes some crew miss out on going to the job but it's better than looking like dads army and responding every man and his dog to a wheelie bin alight in the middle of the burbs at 3am in the morning.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
ok we had a roll over at freeling no entrapments the responding crews were
75829 kapunda ses rescue
22124 freeling cfs
26219 hamley bridge cfs rescue
also greenock cfs were respoding in place of freeling as freeling didnt have a driver.
hamley were told by adelaide fire there were going for rescue yet we were there first and almost ready to leave when hamley came though freeling and greenock got stoped as they rolled out the door.
yet freeling is in our area by a long way
SESRoadcrashguy - you might consider speaking to your region and adelaide fire.... find out if someone has put you on a dual response for RCR for some reason...
otherwise i cant see a logical reason for you being responded.
nor can i we have never defulted well not in the last 5 years we always have two crews out the door with in 5 or so mins which is faster then most CFS around us not there fault people just wont volunteer anymore.
the only time we have defaulted was when adelaide fire new were un available due to other tasking and paged us anyway but we got a crew together and took a CFS appliance was only assist with heli landing no rescue so no need for RCR truck.
i wouldnt call the above a default though otehr then that we have know idea i belive that my unit manager is looking into it as he thinks its a waste of time getting a crew to come all that way for nothing.
mmm well going byy that then, it definitely sounds like you are on a dual-rescue response... follow it up wit hregion
Guys - I think we are looking too much into it.
Items to remember:
If you respond two stations to a simple incident, this does not mean you require both stations their. You can always stop call coming appliances if they are not required on arrival
But it looks silly I think if you are going to a simple job and on arrival it escaltes into a nasty job. (due to problems out of your control.)(could be a information problem giving on dispatch by the person calling it in. eg. a small fire in a back yard which is near but not close to the shed etc. - I think you get what I am saying. At least having them mobile shortens their time is assistance.
Besides a minority of brigades over the state no brigade can 100% gurantee they will have an appliance responding at any time of the day. This is no fault of the brigade or the community they live in, is just how thinks work now compaired to 10 - 15 years ago.
It is always better to over-commit than under-commit on inital dispatch or response.
There seems to be the suggestion by a few people here that you can't do much at a job with only a couple of pumps. You can extinguish an entire house alight with 2 pumps and 2 lines of 38. You don't need 10 appliances to every job that has some flame in it.
Have you people saying you need a thousand pumps to every job actually seen what a couple and crews and a couple of pumps under *good leadership* can do?
A "Group only" response can be to an incident in that groups area,example the last Mt Bold Fire, and is also used for Strike Team assembly to get crews to stations, so the Strike Team Leader knows who is available to respond to another groups area.
It's a bit of a concern that a nearby brigade to us send their 2nd appliance to nearly everything. If you ask me an additional 10 (or so) tonne truck traveling up to 20kph over the speed limit to get to a backyard burn or rubbish fire is a recipe for disaster.
It's even more of a concern that it may take a disaster for our Group to ask questions as to why the response plans weren't followed, or even worse...the coroner.
Quote from: 6793264 on September 04, 2007, 12:30:37 PM
There seems to be the suggestion by a few people here that you can't do much at a job with only a couple of pumps. You can extinguish an entire house alight with 2 pumps and 2 lines of 38. You don't need 10 appliances to every job that has some flame in it.
Have you people saying you need a thousand pumps to every job actually seen what a couple and crews and a couple of pumps under *good leadership* can do?
Yeah, 2 trucks can put a house fire out, and a 3rd for BA releif and a safety crew. Its amazing how many 4th alarm house fires CFS has in a year !
BA relief would actually be a key thing in all this...after all a pumper/24P/34P may have 4 BA sets...but they only have one refill...thats around 1 and a bit hour breathing time...
Realistically, for a standard house fire, 2 or 3 BA crews with an hour breathing time should be ample...
it all depends...especially the mopping up duration :wink:
If it takes you that many resources to deal with a single house alight.. dear god, go and do some training and get your skills up.
Quote from: Dezza on September 05, 2007, 11:44:53 AM
it all depends...
depends on how much the brigade/s are gonna dik around and draw the job out as much as they can...
may to get the job done properly, preventing rekindles, and saving our lungs???
Quote from: Dezza on September 05, 2007, 03:53:20 PM
may to get the job done properly, preventing rekindles, and saving our lungs???
not having a go at ya mate, but this can be done quickly AND effectively.
i know :wink:
ive seen things done right...and wrong....last week lol (caused me to lose a chance to sleep in :P)
Quote from: Dezza on September 05, 2007, 05:26:21 PM
i know :wink:
ive seen things done right...and wrong....last week lol (caused me to lose a chance to sleep in :P)
which job was that?
a multi-Rubbish fire Hahndorf & Oakbank Balhannah.. just a rekindle of one of the piles in the morning of the total fire ban...
aaah yes, heard bout that one....
called in by Heysen GO...just add more water :wink:
ahhh there was enough water* on our piles :wink: i can tell you that...enough to bog... :roll:
*14 pumping from a dam :-D
For us:
Rural Minimum 2 Brig, Urban 3 Brig (2 of which BA), MVA 2 Brig (RCR 1 Brig per car\truck\bus)
Of corse that is what is responded, if resources can be scaled back after first appliance arrives the stop calls go out.
Quote from: Stefan KIRKMOE on September 02, 2007, 09:07:06 PM
not having a go at ANY CFS brigade here but why not respond SAMFS as a dual response into CFS area for more incidents...
Simple to far away nearest MFS is 40kms (Kapunda Retained have trouble with crews themselves) nearest Fulltime MFS 55kms (Gawler) and we have 8 CFS brigades & 3 CFS grps who are closer.
Quote from: Zippy on September 03, 2007, 06:16:30 PM
I hope there are "neighbouring-group" response plans too :-)
Sometimes I wonder :?