SES familiarisation thread

[medevac]

im with you Toast - if i was performing a rescue id rather have a safety, as would the casualty im sure... but on the other hand if im just climbing or abseiling then no, i wouldnt run a safety rope.

SAR and Landsearch are differant, as a  landsearch cold be purely for criminal evidence or something... im not sure on the exact specifics, but thats a general idea for ya...

[squiddy]

So does SAR cover landsearch? If not, what exactly is it?

Landsearch can be used for crime scene searches when an object or evidence is to be found. SAR is about searching and rescuing, so there can be a difference.

[Mike]

Theres nothing stopping the second rope from breaking either. If the first rope has reason to break, then the second is in the same spot, same conditions etc.

Cars have safety cells, airbags and seatbelts.... people still die!

You run an attack line into a building.... do you take a spare incase the first blows?
Do you carry a respirator incase your BA set has a problem?

I can think of many instances where it would be fantastic to have a backup right there when I want it. Doesnt happen.

Using the single rope system you can get a person to the bottom of the cliff with very little fuss. Once the larkin frame and hauling systems have been set up, you can send a second rescuer and stokes little. The casualty is already prep'd to load. There are no ropes 'dragging over any sharp surfaces as the larkin frame prevents this.

Medivac: why diferentiate between rescue and personal use? Surely you deserve the same level of safety in both cases? So why not run a safety in the climbing/abseiling case?

[Toast]

No, the second line is a totally independent system. If the main line fails, then you can stop, take a look at whats gone wrong, FIX IT, and either haul the person up, or continue to lower. Or with he single line you can plunge to the bottom of the cliff.

Attack lines? If one blows, you can turn around and walk out, same with BA. Cars? Safety measures have improved survival. The point is that if the main line fails, you're facing death or serious injury almost certainly. In the time it takes to have the mainline setup, you can have the safety up as well.

[squiddy]

No, the second line is a totally independent system. If the main line fails, then you can stop, take a look at whats gone wrong, FIX IT, and either haul the person up, or continue to lower. Or with he single line you can plunge to the bottom of the cliff.

Attack lines? If one blows, you can turn around and walk out, same with BA. Cars? Safety measures have improved survival. The point is that if the main line fails, you're facing death or serious injury almost certainly. In the time it takes to have the mainline setup, you can have the safety up as well.

I think the point Mike is making here is that if you treat your equipment with absolute respect and follow the safety rules such as 2 person checking etc, then the equipment shouldn't fail.

[Mike]

Thanks Squiddy

It may be an independent system. but it follows the same path as the load line, and requires suitable protection of edges etc. If it is so independent that the rope does not follow then the rescuer will pendulum creating a whole new set of problems.

INCORPORATION OF SAFETY BELAYS 11.4

11.4 REQUIREMENT
In certain circumstances, dictated either by service operational policy or by on-ground conditions, there will be a requirement to establish a belay or safety rope for the casualty and escort.

11.5 BACK–UP
The belay is for use only as a back up in the event that the main hauling line becomes inoperative, or any element of the rescue system fails.

11.6 A belay should be anchored independently of the rescue system and controlled at all times so that there is a minimum of slack in the line.

Ok, an extract from the EMA manual 40 - Vertical Rescue.
http://www.ema.gov.au/agd/EMA/rwpattach.nsf/VAP/(A80860EC13A61F5BA8C1121176F6CC3C)~ASM_VerticalRescue.pdf/$file/ASM_VerticalRescue.pdf

There is no actual requirement for a belay or safety rope.

[Toast]

Yes, but equipment isn't perfect. I just don't see the implied burden of having a second line.

Edit: Mike, well if its not in the SOP's oh well. Is the vert course SES does a National one?

[medevac]

mike - i was under the impression we were talking about a safety back up when performing the actual rescue.... i would quite happily send a rescuer down on a single line (if that rescuer was happy in doing so) so that they could perform first aid, and recce, should SOTs not be there yet...

what i am talking about is if the rescuer is then strapped to a stokes or what not, i would be much happier with them having a backup...

and the comment re; backup will fail if the main one does anyway is a bit daft mike, there are many differant reasons why the main line could break, and this wouldnt necessarily impact on the backup... for example, backup line should be at a differant connection point, so should the main lines connection fail then the backup will still have a connection...

(hmmm im rambling here)

and re; for my own use, id quite happily run without a safety, because not only do i trust my equipment (i know that slightly contradicts my previous) but when i am by myself, that is simply it... by myself, i dont have anyone elses life in my hands....


on the other hand; if backup lines arent apart of SOP then by all means the OIC should use them as they deem fit....

[Toast]

For the RAT to get to the casualty, it shouldn't take any longer to get the safetly line setup.

[medevac]

by golly weve dragged this off track... 

[Mike]

my bad (mutters about moderators under breath  )

[Toast]

Do the SES now have multiple uniforms? They have the good old orange jumpsuit, but do they also run a two piece?

I must say the new orange/blue "SES Rescue" jackets are rather fetching.

[Mike]

Two piece or overalls. User choice. Still in the middle of changing badging also.

[PF_]

Id want a safety belay line with me at all times.  Safety is paramount.  If that original rope fails, Im filtered, if there is a second rope there is a second chance.  id rather get injured knowing I had a back up line that failed than crash to the grond and be paralysed or dead knowing there was a chance I could still be out climbing and having fun. 

[squiddy]

In relation to the earlier question about rank in the SES and how to tell who is in charge out on a scene (because we all wear orange helmets), here is a list of the epaulettes worn by SES volunteers.

Unit Manager - Crown
Deputy Unit Manager - 3 pips
Service Officer (eg rescue, training, comms) - 2 pips
Deputy Service Officer - 1 pip
Team Leader - 3 chevron
Deputy Team Leader - 2 chevron
Equipment Officer - 1 chevron

Sometimes (especially out at floods etc) you may see paid SES staff. They can be identified by their epaulettes as follows:

Chief Officer - crown, pip, wreath
Deputy Chief Officer - crown, wreath
Assistant Chief Officer - pip, wreath
Regional Commander & State Managers (Infrastructure & Training/Development) - wreath
Senior Regional Officer, Technical Rescue Officer, OHW&S Officer & Manager Ops Support - crown, 2 pips
State Training Officers & State Project Officers - crown, pip

Along with the recent badge change, we are now using blue epaulettes with yellow insignia as opposed to the old brown with yellow. Some people still wear the old ones, but once everyone has the new uniforms, it should change over completely.

[bajdas]

Do the SES now have multiple uniforms? They have the good old orange jumpsuit, but do they also run a two piece?

I must say the new orange/blue "SES Rescue" jackets are rather fetching.

The walking out uniform has changed to fawn shirt with dark blue badges, fawn trousers, dark blue jumper and dark blue jacket.

Casual wear will be determined in the future.

The orange overalls or two-piece, orange helmets, orange wet weather gear, bum bag, steel cap boots and floppy hat form standard field PPE.

Due to the change-over to the new uniforms, some (like myself) still wear old style uniforms until issued with new.

[squiddy]

The walking out uniform has changed to fawn shirt with dark blue badges, fawn trousers, dark blue jumper and dark blue jacket.

Its not "fawn"... it is called "putty". Why couldn't they just go blue pants to go with the new blue jumpers and jackets? Light trousers are a pain in the rear.

[PF_]

coppers and firies wear blue.

[squiddy]

coppers and firies wear blue.

And park rangers wear fawn.

[probie_boy]

I have a question. Why do SES groups always have so many vehicles and trailers? Would it be easier to get 1 or 2 hino's or isuzu's and fill them to the brim with gear rather than having 4 land rovers?

also, why don't sturt SES have a quad, mountain bike or horse team? there are quite a lot of rural areas where that stuf would be handy (belair national park, cleland, scott creek CP etc) Maybe they could give up the aireshelta!

[squiddy]

I have a question. Why do SES groups always have so many vehicles and trailers? Would it be easier to get 1 or 2 hino's or isuzu's and fill them to the brim with gear rather than having 4 land rovers?

also, why don't sturt SES have a quad, mountain bike or horse team? there are quite a lot of rural areas where that stuf would be handy (belair national park, cleland, scott creek CP etc) Maybe they could give up the aireshelta!

The reason we have so many different vehicles is because we do different taskings. I mean, we aren't exactly going to turn up at a landsearch in a heavy rescue truck if all our rcr gear is on it, are we? Sensibility would suggest taking troopies and leaving the haevy equipment back at the base with a few crew. We use landcruisers etc to get the crew around when they won't all fit on the truck, and also for those who may arrive at the base just after the truck has left. We use trailers to store specific tools and equipment so we don't end up with a truck that weighs 10 ton and won't move. We also do it so that you can find things easily. There's no use carrying everything on the truck if it means having to pull everything out to get to things.

As far as units not having certain things like quad bikes, it isn't as simple as getting things based on the territory around you. Resources can be brought in if necessary. If Sturt get quad bikes because they are near national parks, why not give Yankalilla some for Deep Creek, or some of the other outlying units like Murray Bridge or Meningie or Strathalbyn who have to search along the Murray or the lakes?

As far as the horses go, they are owned by unit members in those units. The unit has a horse float to take them to taskings, and they can be deployed all over the state... just as the dog unit have caged cars and can be deployed anywhere.

[probie_boy]

ok. cheers for that.

on the subject of big trucks, dont a couple of metro units have large trucks?

[medevac]

no SES units have "big" trucks... on the scale of a 24P or 34P or whatever...

but they do have trucks; sturt for example run two an Isuzu 300 as well as a Mitsubishi canter as rescue trucks... in fact most units have vehicles like these.

[probie_boy]

no SES units have "big" trucks... on the scale of a 24P or 34P or whatever...

but they do have trucks; sturt for example run two an Isuzu 300 as well as a Mitsubishi canter as rescue trucks... in fact most units have vehicles like these.

are you sure? i seem to recall SES having an Isuzu or something. it was a medium size truck. might've lived at metro south???

[medevac]

i just said sturt have an isuzu 300 and that there are more medium sized trucks out there........


just that they havent got the same monstrosities we do