ses road crash

[pumprescue]

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone knows if SES have a AFAC standard RCR course?

[Alan (Big Al)]

I believe the course they do now is AFAC standard, was interesting when we trained with the SES and they'd come out with these in house tecniques that they'd made up and taught on courses that left a little to be desired in the safety department so hopefully with a standard AFAC RCR course both agencies get the desired safe training.

[pumprescue]

thanks i knew they did some weird stuff in house wasn't sure if they had changed their ways

[bajdas]

Full TRK course released last year and is now the standard training for all SES RCR training.

[cleland.j]

Yes SES do have a standard RCR training which differs from the CFS RCR manual. however in rural area's RCR practices leave alot to be desired. How ever they always seem to do well in the RCR comps so it can;t be all that bad

[squiddy]

Yes SES do have a standard RCR training which differs from the CFS RCR manual. however in rural area's RCR practices leave alot to be desired. How ever they always seem to do well in the RCR comps so it can;t be all that bad

Maybe in some rural areas, but not all. Please try not to generalise and put everyone down; there are some of us who are damn good at what we do.

[bajdas]

Yes SES do have a standard RCR training which differs from the CFS RCR manual. however in rural area's RCR practices leave alot to be desired. How ever they always seem to do well in the RCR comps so it can;t be all that bad

That is what I thought a TRK course is designed to 'iron out' the practices & make the techniques standard.

Interesting that the senior paid SES training officer in charge of the RCR TRK lives at Meningie and works for the SES East Region.

I understand development of RCR TRK and the SES trucks were both designed with input from country volunteers.

[cleland.j]

Yes SES do have a standard RCR training which differs from the CFS RCR manual. however in rural area's RCR practices leave alot to be desired. How ever they always seem to do well in the RCR comps so it can;t be all that bad

Maybe in some rural areas, but not all. Please try not to generalise and put everyone down; there are some of us who are damn good at what we do.

Yes I know we are damn good at our job coming from two RCR SES units. I'm just saying that until SES becomes standard across the board you are going to have a laps in desired RCR tecniques. CFS is equally impressive in there RCR tecniques but they have alot more paper work to back up there practices.

[Camo]

the last actual rescue i attended where SES were required to extricate two patients, one from each car, it took an hour for the first and another hour for the 2nd (rough estimation of times).

My thoughts are - Why didnt they call for back up rescue and why did it take so long to do what seemed to be a faily simple rescue - cut the b pillar out, remove the doors (one car required a roof roll)

but really what is the normal time for this to be carried out? surely not an hour or more

[Alan (Big Al)]

We have a similar problem with the SES up the road from us, they want to be called to all MVA's in our area and we don't hesitate to call them if we think they might be needed, but getting them to call us to back them up is a different matter it's a very rare thing for them to call us.
I asked one of the higher members in their unit one day why they don't call us and got the reply "thats not up to us thats up to the other (non rescue) CFS on scene".

Camo in your case i can't speculate as to why they took so long but i was always told and always follow that if there is rescue required in both vehicles then second rescue MUST BE RESPONDED....

[Smallflame]

the last actual rescue i attended where SES were required to extricate two patients, one from each car, it took an hour for the first and another hour for the 2nd (rough estimation of times).

My thoughts are - Why didnt they call for back up rescue and why did it take so long to do what seemed to be a faily simple rescue - cut the b pillar out, remove the doors (one car required a roof roll)

but really what is the normal time for this to be carried out? surely not an hour or more

There's a lot of things that can cause an extrication to take a while, so without knowing all the mitigating circumstances surrounding the particular incident, its hard to know how long it should have taken. Such variables as the experience of the crew, the state of equipment, the state of overcrowding, and of course, the state of the casualty all come into effect here.

From what you've said there the time does sound quite outside of the ideal "golden hour"... Then again, what look to be simple rescues can take us a fairly long time too. I know people are going to jump on this instantly, but its a fact of life...

[Toast]

There's a lot of things that can cause an extrication to take a while, so without knowing all the mitigating circumstances surrounding the particular incident, its hard to know how long it should have taken. Such variables as the experience of the crew, the state of equipment, the state of overcrowding, and of course, the state of the casualty all come into effect here.

From what you've said there the time does sound quite outside of the ideal "golden hour"... Then again, what look to be simple rescues can take us a fairly long time too. I know people are going to jump on this instantly, but its a fact of life...

I think you'll find that in our SOP's (I'd hope that the SES's arent too different, but we're getting into banjo territory) if the casualty is still trapped after 15 minutes of work by the first rescue resource, a second rescue needs to be responded. Now even if this was delayed due to paramedic intervention, there still stands the point about if the incident involves two cars, both with people trapped, then a second rescue response shall be responded

The state of the equipment should not case a HUGE delay in the cut out, unless of course you're trying to take the roof of a car off with plastic knives and forks. State of over crowding? What?

[squiddy]

I think you'll find that in our SOP's (I'd hope that the SES's arent too different, but we're getting into banjo territory) if the casualty is still trapped after 15 minutes of work by the first rescue resource, a second rescue needs to be responded. Now even if this was delayed due to paramedic intervention, there still stands the point about if the incident involves two cars, both with people trapped, then a second rescue response shall be responded

The state of the equipment should not case a HUGE delay in the cut out, unless of course you're trying to take the roof of a car off with plastic knives and forks. State of over crowding? What?

Enough with the generalisations. I know a few cfs brigades who crank up the banjos too.

Anyway, I have seen rescues take far too long thanks to the egos of those involved wanting to get in and do everything themselves. I have also seen ambos all climb into cars to deal with a casualty and push the rescuers out the way. I have seen side intrusion bars snap cutters and tips broken off spreaders.

As far as the casualty being trapped after 15 minutes, it is not always possible to work to that statistic due to the nature of the damage to the car. I don't know about your area, but when cars hit things here, metal gets folded and torn which occasionally makes it difficult to do what we need to. Yes, we have SOPs that state ideal times, but not every rescue goes according to plan. Do you live in an area where cars read textbooks and crash accordingly?

[Toast]

I think you'll find that in our SOP's (I'd hope that the SES's arent too different, but we're getting into banjo territory) if the casualty is still trapped after 15 minutes of work by the first rescue resource, a second rescue needs to be responded. Now even if this was delayed due to paramedic intervention, there still stands the point about if the incident involves two cars, both with people trapped, then a second rescue response shall be responded

The state of the equipment should not case a HUGE delay in the cut out, unless of course you're trying to take the roof of a car off with plastic knives and forks. State of over crowding? What?

Enough with the generalisations. I know a few cfs brigades who crank up the banjos too.

Anyway, I have seen rescues take far too long thanks to the egos of those involved wanting to get in and do everything themselves. I have also seen ambos all climb into cars to deal with a casualty and push the rescuers out the way. I have seen side intrusion bars snap cutters and tips broken off spreaders.

As far as the casualty being trapped after 15 minutes, it is not always possible to work to that statistic due to the nature of the damage to the car. I don't know about your area, but when cars hit things here, metal gets folded and torn which occasionally makes it difficult to do what we need to. Yes, we have SOPs that state ideal times, but not every rescue goes according to plan. Do you live in an area where cars read textbooks and crash accordingly?

Metal folds and gets torn? Really? Thanks for such enlightening comments! I was merely quoting the times and procedures (eg: What 'should' be done) as outlined in our SOP's in relation to the two cars two hours job reffered to by Camo. And those silly ambos, I can't believe they would push the rescuers out of the way to do silly things like stabilise the patient...

Things don't always go to plan? Yes! Should one SES crew have taken two hours to extract casualties? No!

See? It's simple, no need to get narky.

[Mike]

I know of a CFS crew that took 2 hours to extract casualties as well.

I have seen CFS do exactly the same thing.

As for your local SES issue Mundcfs, As far as I have been told by CFS paid staff, there is no requirement to respond a second rescue to a 2 car mva. (I disagree though!). However, if there is still a problem, lodge a grievence form..... and see what happens.....

Every job is capable of having the time pushed out. This depends on many things. Limiting further injury to the casualty being first and formost (after safety of course)....

anyways...

[Toast]

I'd get stuck into a CFS crew as well, just for the record 

[squiddy]

Metal folds and gets torn? Really? Thanks for such enlightening comments! I was merely quoting the times and procedures (eg: What 'should' be done) as outlined in our SOP's in relation to the two cars two hours job reffered to by Camo. And those silly ambos, I can't believe they would push the rescuers out of the way to do silly things like stabilise the patient...

Things don't always go to plan? Yes! Should one SES crew have taken two hours to extract casualties? No!

See? It's simple, no need to get narky.

Actually, you might want to ask the CFS about why that job took so long since they claim to have been in charge.

[Scania_1]

I think you will find that if you look at the SA road crash rescue resource directory which is used by all emergency services that there is a requirement to respond additional rescue response for each trapped person. When you do your CFS RCR course they tell you that too.

[oz fire]

I have witnessed first hand issues with CFS, SES and MFS crews in RCR - as has been stated every situation is different!

Obviously everyone who has commented here has been on the tools and follows a standard, document and well rehearsed extrication each time they attend an MVA with RCR requirements.

Interesting to note that CFS and MFS are using an AFAC standard, whilst SES are using the new National Standard as part of the public safety training package.

In such a small state, we should all be learning from each other, training with each other and working to move forward.

I have seen a lot in innovation from both CFS and SES in RCR in the past few years - both are championing the cause and pushing RCR techniques and training forward.

We all need to remember though, competency has a shelf life and if your were trained 4 years ago, your techniques cannot be compared with those of today due to new tools, new techniques and the rapider changing car industry.

[medevac]

Obviously everyone who has commented here has been on the tools and follows a standard, document and well rehearsed extrication each time they attend an MVA with RCR requirements.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAH i doubt that....

the only thing i would like to contribute is this... whoever dispatches the call, whether it be MFS or CFS are required to send one rescue and one fire resouorce regardless of size or complexity of the incident (in reality common sense should not play a role, just set responses), it is then up to the OIC to decide whether more resources are required...

and if need be then it is up to that OIC to justify there decision to the coroner.

[squiddy]

Obviously everyone who has commented here has been on the tools and follows a standard, document and well rehearsed extrication each time they attend an MVA with RCR requirements.

Oh wow... I really hope that was tongue in cheek, because I know for a fact that some of those commenting here have never done the rcr course or even used the tools before... which generally leads me to believe that until they do so, their opinions in regards to jobs are little more than stirring the pot.

Cheers fellas   

[rescue5271]

each RCR job is differant,as for following the rules well come on what you learn on the RCR course may not work on the road.. So one needs to(a) be a team player.. (b) always have two rescue plans...(c) the golden rule of rescue does not apply if the person is in a heavy rescue  and by that I mean truck into a tree,truck v truck or car v truck....

In country areas a high speed inpact is just that 110-120 kms into a tree or truck is one messy and long job and you may only be the only rescue brigade around for 100kms.....

[Scania_1]

Oh so we are inventing new words now. rapider?

[Scania_1]

sorry that was a bit harsh.

[squiddy]

sorry that was a bit harsh.

I'll say... get back in your box