Hyperthetical (spelling?) Incidents

[rescue5271]

If its fully involved would you send in your first crew with out back up being on scene??

[CFS_Firey]

You can do a very primary search without entering the building - check all windows and doors....

[Toast]

Assuming the pumper is first arriving, it has 4xBA, thats two in, two out. Also with persons inside, and you KNOW that you have BA crew incoming, I'm going in no doubt about it.

[CFS_Firey]

For those that haven't seen it, there's a thread about calling Type 2s pumpers:
http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&?topic=663.new;topicseen#new

[rescue5271]

ok so you send your crew in what are the other 3 guys doing??? and just how much water does your pumper hold??? is it 200olts,1800 lts.....Its a hard call and one that I would not like to call...

[Toast]

The other 3? OIC/Pump operator/Poor hose running man, 200m RUN RUN RUN

[rescue5271]

Each appliance has a full crew of 5,you have sent two caba members inside  you have 3 outside one would hope the oic would do more than talk on the radio(team work) and just how far is the next caba crew coming from........

[TillerMan]

Well obviously you would be trying to save people if the opertunity is there whilst starting to knock down the fire but any structure fire i've been to where half the house is alight the rest of the house is on its way to being alight so conditions are very poor for rescue attemts. The smoke and heat is a bit different to smoke machine smoke at the training centre.

[rescue5271]

I have called in the air support cam

[Camo]

No Worries Bill i will keep an eye on the sky.

Well done everyone.  This is exactly what i was hoping when i started this thread.  It is very interesting to hear the different views on how people would handle such an incident.

Here is my view on what would happen.

Make sure SAAS and SAPOL are notified on the way to incident.  Type 2 is first to arrive (2nd Alarm called, although no upgrade is completed as there is already 3 appliances responding plus one on scene). 1 Person quickly circles the house and pulls the fuses while 2 BA crew start up.  Once the recce person gets back and has briefed the crew on any dangers, the BA crew would then complete an external attack with a 38mm hose while also conducting a brief outside search(looking through windows etc). On Determining there are minimal exposures (trees & garden) rescue and containment efforts are put before this.

(All hoses entering building are from type 2)

2 x 34's arrive as this is happening. On determining the house is safe to enter, 3 Teams of BA are setup from these appliances, 1 takes in a 38mm hose upstairs to try and save the right half of the house, while the first BA crew enter the downstairs from the front to try and tame things there.  The third BA crew enters the bottom floor from the front also and completes a quick primary search.  The upstairs BA Crew have a quick search also of the top floor but very minor as anyone up there without BA would soon perish very quickly from the heat and smoke.  The fourth crew are a Safety.  Also the remaining crew move the appliances into place so 1 x 34 is relay pumping to the type 2 and other 34.  Also these remaining crew protect exposures while everything is being setup.

The 14 Finally arrives.  These crew and the remaining crew setup a BA post (tarps, new cylinders, refreshments).
SES is called to conduct traffic control.

I may have missed a detail but this is my general running of the incident.

Just one thing im unsure of as never had a pumper but in the event of relay pumping would it be better for the type 2 to supply both 34's or a 34 to supply the type 2 and 34?  As you would hope CFB techniques would be being used there would be minimal water used and pressure shouldnt be a problem.  Just a thought.

Camo

[rescue5271]

Cam,its better to feed the pumper you need to take into account the flow rate of the pump on the pumper and that of the 34 pumps also the main water pressure as you know it is very low in some places...It gets back to training and training and did I say training.....

[Toast]

  As you would hope CFB techniques would be being used there would be minimal water used and pressure shouldnt be a problem.  Just a thought.

Camo

I'd suggest that you wouldn't need CFB techniques on a building that has two stories involved... Maybe a LITTLE bit of natural venting has occurred?

[Camo]

Yes true but there is no need to just open the nozzle up and let er rip.  You can get the same effect using your water efficiently.

[CFS_Firey]

Camo, any reason why you ran all the hoses off the pumper? I would be more inclined to run at least 1 line from the spare 34, just in case the pumper stops working (eg, if it was Stirling Pumper).... was there a reason you did ti that way?

[Camo]

No not really...just over looked that fact... but i guess it comes down to when the appliances arrive, in this case the 34 was there so yeah i probaly should of used it my mistake but probaly in real life the type 2 might be there well before and that would be the reason they use all the hoses off that truck.

but yeah a simple oversight....good pickup

[TillerMan]

It doesn't really matter that much in a structure fire because if the pump fails there is generally not another hose next to you to take over anyway so running hoses off different pumps won't help. As there is an appliance relaying to you there should still be enough pressure from the relay to protect yourself, the water doesn't just stop coz the pump stops.

[Toast]

You'd be surprised at what a mischievous pumper can do. Although I'd kinda hope that if you had a questionable pumper like ours, you would run the external lines off another truck, so that if the brown stuff did hit the fan, you could prodive a degree of protection for your interior crews from the outside.

[corecutters]

Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?

Think back to protocol and training, realising the fact the the safety of the firefighter is number one.  If you don't have BA crews spare (emergency crew incase the initial BA team go down) you cannot take part in any internal attack. (Remembering you need the resources so if that emergency crew does go in, there is then another standing by... etc etc..)

Secondly... Is the dexterity of the building under too much doubt?  EG - Do you know for sure, and better yet, prepared to send your crews into a structure which is well involved in fire, and has a highly probably chance of collapse.

Being a two story structure, and having both stories on one side well involved, I would be less inclined to send crews in.  The effect on the core strength by having both ground and first story floors well involved, has a greater chance of collapse than a single story building.  The continuing downward pressure of the top story and continual fatiguing of the supporting beams between stories 1 and 2 wouuld suggest to me that the 1st story and roof are very soon going to collapse.  - Although, every job is different, and could result in very different outcomes..



I have read a number of valid and differing ideas on how to combat this situation, most of wich are practical and quite feasable.  It goes to show the many different methods in which we can fight various incidents.  I think the most important thing to realise is there will never be the "one" clear and correct answer... Every job will be different... The emotions of bystanders and relatives / householders who managed to get out would be huge! Especially with persons reported trapped.. You will be highly criticised at the job if it appeared you made no effort to get in and rescue people, you will be even more scrutinised by the media/public in the days / weeks after... The number of changing factors which could occur at the job will be endless and the outcomes infinite..

So in summary.... Firefighter safety is number one... and such an incident would indeed be a challenging one !

[Camo]

one thing you need to consider in a two story structure is that the walls (if it is a solid brick home) on the bottom floor should be able to support the 2nd floor with no trouble....

in this case where the house is a solid brick home (which i think i forgot to mention) i would not have any problems sending crews in.  But in saying that if the crews did not feel safe inside then i would be more than happy for them to exit the building.

But as you said each job is different.

[F.B.R.T]

Gee Camo, this hypothetical almost sounds too familiar!

[CFS_Firey]

corecutters - my comment about doing rescue was  because someone suggested attacking the fire, and then doing a search later, when more crews arrive...  In my opinion, saving life is out primary role, not attacking the fire.  But as you said, if its going to endanger your crews, don't do it!

[rescue5271]

May as well post the photos for this job,mmmmmmmmmsounds like a house fire that took place in the mount not so long ago?

[Camo]

Well to some extent that is where i got the idea from but in the mt gambier house fire the whole top floor was well involved i think.

Im too lazy to think up new stuff

[SA Firey]

House Fire - 2 Story, 3 Trapped Occupants, Left hand side of house fully involved (Top and Bottom Story), Entry on the right side at the top and centre back and front on bottom story.

Crew/Trucks Available - 1 x Type 2 Pumper with 4 x CABA, 2 x Rural 34's With 2 x CABA sets each & 1 x 14 No CABA.  Each truck has a crew of 5 with everyone BA trained (14 is a new mitsi canter dualcab).  Mains water is available but is approx. 200 metres to the nearest hydrant.

Prior to arrival based on the information recieved the OIC assigns the crews their tasks.On arrival OIC upgrades to 2nd alarm,and requests SAPOL and SAAS to attend..then does quick rece of the building and isolates the power,gas.Crews from Pumper gets to work with 1 x BA crews with a HP line make entry into the building and commence primary search,a second BA crew donned up,and ready to go setup PPV fan at front entry,and follow first team in with a second HP line.The OIC delegates a crew from the first 34 arriving to relay water to Pumper and start to protect exposures and also get another BA crew to act as safety for two teams inside already committed.Second 34 relays water to first 34,and has 2 BA operators donn and act as second safety crew backup.Crews from both 34's and now 14 start laying out a line of 64mm to the hydrant which is now 60 metres away.Once setup and all appliances now relaying water,crews assist BA operators with casualties they have retreived and provide first aid till SAAS arrive.BA safety teams takeover from the crews that have retrieved casualties and continue firefighting operations,ventilation and salvage.

The house was toast but a good save by the BA crews for 3 casualties    

[Camo]

PPV Fan...hmmm

what is everyones thoughts on the use of these?

Not knowing the full story behind them i would be resistant to comment but just in a quick thought wouldnt feeding the fire more oxygen be a bad thing?