Author Topic: mutual aid... (Read 40227 times)

medevac · « **on:** November 13, 2005, 05:57:17 PM »

im not sure what everyone else thinks...
but surely all the EMA brigades out there know that the S.O.P. concerning mutaual aid states that CFS will NOT use k-codes when transmitting on MFS frequencys... i qoute "k-codes are not to be utilised by CFS resources" ??

??

just that i was listening to scanner and couldnt help but overhear a brigade (wont say which one in the interest of not getting flammed/bashed whatever... and to prevent embaressment to them) who was determined to use k-codes for everything.. and then even thought it was appropriate to tell adelaide fire they were available in an MFS stations area... (using k-codes of course "adelaide fire we're K6 ??'s area")

surely weve all read our sop's? especially the ones that apply directly to us...

EDIT to include :
LOL... perhaps im just cynical and like to stir ppl up though... sorry.

24P · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2005, 06:52:10 PM »

Must admit when on MFS channel the odd K code slips out but i'm trying to control myself.

24P · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2005, 06:58:17 PM »

but on the other hand they are'nt supposed to use them on CFS channels but they still do.

strikeathird · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2005, 08:58:00 PM »

Quite frankly, I know the rules are their, but if they are expected to use "PLAIN ENGLISH" when on CFS talkgroup, I don't see how it is unreasonable for them to expect us to use K-Codes. AS long as people who have no idea use them willy-nilly and have absoloutly no clue as to what they are saying.

For goodness sake we are meant to be doing things to make life easy, and to be quick, clear and precise on the radio... How much simpler can it get than with a K-Code. !!!!

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2005, 09:13:41 PM »

It was my understanding that CFS uses K-codes when operating in MFS area / talk groups and the MFS don't use them when in our area... I'm sure the MFS don't mind us using K-codes when in their area, it was them that gave us the list of K-codes to use in the first place

firefighter_sa · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2005, 07:42:42 AM »

Hi there.

We go to school for a considerable amount of time and learn to speak & understand Australian/English language.

My views we (being CFS) needs to either adopt K-Codes 100% or drop it because not everyone understands this form of communication.

I am not slamming something I haven't tried - we used them at work for a couple of years but through time they have been dropped. We communicate with the English language and under pressure and we all still sometimes make mistakes - little lone using something we use now and than (being k-codes.

The mets us this form of communication as part of there training & occupation, the CFS is a professional service but its not our bread and butter or something we all use everyday or within our employment.

I like to use the KIS method (I shouldn't need to explain this)

I am expecting to take a little flack over this subject but but it is a forum and everyone is entitled to the views.

Thanks for reading

Wayne

TillerMan · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2005, 08:13:12 AM »

My opinion is they should only be used by E.M.A brigades who operate in M.F.S area alot and only if those people keep on doing the appropriate training. One issue is that we all need to know the basic's incase they talk to us with K - codes, because when the heat is on you don't want to be asking someone 5 times what they said in plain english.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2005, 10:12:27 AM »

I'm with you TillerMan, if we know at least K55, (special service), K66 (Rubbish, waste bin etc), K77 (Nothing showing), K88 (small fire), and K99 (Large fire), that means we'll at least know what to expect when we get there if MFS arrive first...
Also, for brigades working primarily in MFS area, (Burnside for example), it would be natural for them to use K-codes a lot, and for them to accidently slip into non-EMA jobs...

I don't mind what codes we use, so long as the radio transmissions are Clear and Concise. Theres nothing worse than having to wait 5 minutes after arrival before you can say you've arrived, and ask the IC what they want from you...

medevac · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2005, 12:30:39 PM »

Quote from: 24P on November 13, 2005, 06:58:17 PM

but on the other hand they are'nt supposed to use them on CFS channels but they still do.

there in the wrong there as well !!! lol

btw.. it is actually MFS that requested CFS EMA brigades dont use the k-codes... so really there is no arguing as far as i can tell.. the brigades simply shouldnt be making there own rules... i think one of the offenders do come from a certain group though...

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2005, 12:37:57 PM »

Quote from: medevac on November 14, 2005, 12:30:39 PM

btw.. it is actually MFS that requested CFS EMA brigades dont use the k-codes...

Probably because CFS kept getting them wrong

Firefrog · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2005, 01:11:12 PM »

The CFS COSO/SOP document is clear and states that no K codes will be used by CFS on any talkgroup including SAMFS.

Look at SOP 7.1

firefighter_sa · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2005, 01:41:34 PM »

Hi there

You are correct Firefrog

SOP 7.1 -

Radio Communications.

All personal (CFS or SAMFS) when operating on CFS frequencies shall do so in accordance with the CFS SOP (K Codes are not to be used by CFS Resources).

All crews (CFS or SAMFS) when operating on MFS frequency's shall do so in accordance with MFS SOP for communications (K Codes are not to be utilized by CFS resources)

Whether this is in-forced is entirely up to you hierarchy.

Wayne

canman · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2005, 02:54:48 PM »

I agree with TillerMan.

Many times during incidents within CFS area MFS will use K codes on CFS talkgroups only to be asked to repeat in English meanwhile taking up more air time. Many of these MFS appliance know not to use K codes in CFS area but it tends to happen time after time.

Who's going to change first?

Somethings got to give and using K codes appear to be an efficient system in reducing airtime and getting an accurate message across.

I think CFS should make the change.

I believe EMA brigades should be allowed to use K codes.

K

medevac · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2005, 07:19:26 PM »

Quote from: Firefrog on November 14, 2005, 01:11:12 PM

The CFS COSO/SOP document is clear and states that no K codes will be used by CFS on any talkgroup including SAMFS.

swear i said that... lol

canman:
one of the main reasons CFS dont use k-codes is probably because... not everyone lives/breathes/shtis fire service. there are way too many mingas that couldnt be expected to rememebr k-codes.. most ppl seem to have a hard enough time using normal langauge and pro-words on radios.

strikeathird · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2005, 08:18:09 PM »

^^ Mingas ey.................

Im with CANMAN/TILLERMAN.. I say EMA brigades should be able to use them, and be trained in them.... IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO REMEMBER THEM PEOPLE !! ESPECIALLY THE EASY / FREQUENTLY USED ONES !!! Not rocket science, that is for SURE !

I am K1 to the fridge for a drink......

medevac · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2005, 08:28:32 PM »

K55 at fridge.. we have a minor spillage...

oz fire · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2005, 08:47:24 AM »

Quote from: medevac on November 14, 2005, 12:30:39 PM

btw.. it is actually MFS that requested CFS EMA brigades dont use the k-codes... so really there is no arguing as far as i can tell.. the brigades simply shouldnt be making there own rules... i think one of the offenders do come from a certain group though...

Certain Group?

??

From monitoring there are probally only two brigades that use K codes with the majority of their responses and usually because they have MFS staff in their brigades and on their appliances( yes they are neighboring brigades, both have RCR, Hazmat and regularly respond into MFS area)!

The SOP is clear ..... there is no grey area. K codes are not to be used by CFS brigades! Simple really ............. although maybe too simple - maybe that style of SOP/instruction should be written n a K code

.

In numerous posts in different threads, members have made comments about brigades and groups, both urban and rural who have adapted their own version of the SOP's, who do things a little differently to you or a little differently to the SOP's. Maybe this is just a reality check coming back to those people ...... it doesn't matter if your in a group who thinks they can write their own SOP's and abide by their own laws or create their own appliances or additional levels of equipment or if your a member of an ema brigade who uses K codes - your all outside of the SOP's, no matter if it's a little bit or a large bit!

As for the reasons - there are people in both services who for a long time have worked to resolve the gap between CFS and MFS, have worked to make EMA work and who have hit their heads against brick walls, fire trucks, been hit and probally many times wondered why they worry - these same people though have agreed on both services SOP's - so maybe they know things that we don't, maybe they see the big picture, maybe they are across all boundary areas, maybe they are working to continue bringing the services closer together and maybe, just maybe we should give them the respect they deserve when they wrote the SOP's.

So before I become a statistic (K-41 1) I'm K5!

rescue5271 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2005, 01:01:08 PM »

Dont know why in this day and age that any fire service use any type of codes lets face it how hard is it say arrived on scene?? or that we are returning??? Sure when there is a death they need some sort of code but there are ways around this one...

Firefrog · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2005, 03:18:24 PM »

Quote

swear i said that... lol

MedevacYes you did say that I was agreeing with you!!!

medevac · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2005, 07:13:59 PM »

well put oz fire

Roger · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2005, 08:17:49 PM »

Seriously! What's all the fuss about?
So what if a few CFS guys use the dreaded K Codes???
With a bit of common sense (what was that?) surely if they use K Codes regularly and KNOW them, what's the problem? A rule of thumb is that if you're not sure of the correct K code, use plain language. That applies for members of either service.
Medevac, I don't agree that the MFS requested that the CFS stop using K Codes. I'm not sure where you got that info, but I am certain that the push came from within the CFS.
Disclaimer; I am not suggesting that any member deliberately disobey their SOPs, but what a mountain from the mole-hill.
PS the MFS SOP's are under constant review, including Communications, and one thought has been to get rid of K Codes for all but status changes, arrivals and certain "sensitive" messages, eg fatality, bomb found, etc. Requests for police or SAAS, ETSA etc might become plain language anyway. Or so I'm told...

strikeathird · « **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2005, 08:33:04 PM »

Quote from: rescue5271 on November 15, 2005, 01:01:08 PM

Dont know why in this day and age that any fire service use any type of codes lets face it how hard is it say arrived on scene?? or that we are returning??? Sure when there is a death they need some sort of code but there are ways around this one...

Cause some people read out a novel with their arrival message... ! (Not joking either!!)

Don't know if you are familiar with K Codes Blinky and understandably as your brigade wouldn't associate with them.... But for EMA or MA brigades, they can be useful (if used correctly).. They can save time, be alot clearer, and I believe a more effective way of communicating.."

And I also believe it was CFS who pulled the pin on K Codes a few years back... .. Stupid decision if you ask me.

TillerMan · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:24:46 AM »

That's right roger, I have also heard that M.F.S will be getting rid of K codes themselves.

rescue5271 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2005, 07:35:42 PM »

Yes I know what K codes are I have a copy of the list here and at the station so we can hear what MFS are up .

canman · « **Reply #24 on:** November 17, 2005, 03:00:50 PM »

What does the "K" stand for?

Author Topic: mutual aid... (Read 40227 times)

strikeathird

strikeathird

rescue5271

strikeathird

rescue5271