Author Topic: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands  (Read 50896 times)

Offline SA Firey

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CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« on: June 16, 2012, 09:32:39 AM »
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/cfs-volunteers-fall-by-thousands/story-fn6bqvxz-1226397195871

THE state's army of Country Fire Service volunteers is at its lowest level in at least a decade, amid warnings of a hotter, drier summer.

CFS numbers have fallen from 16,419 in 2002 to 13,682. That is a drop of almost 17 per cent as of Tuesday.

In the past year alone, the service has lost 861 volunteers - the biggest annual drop in the past 10 years, according to figures obtained by The Advertiser.

As a result, the CFS is struggling to find adequate crews for day shifts within 100km of Adelaide. The demands of employers, the struggling economy and an ageing population are being blamed for the sharp drop.

Experts have called for financial incentives to entice more people to the service as the Bureau of Meteorology forecasts a return to an El Nino weather pattern over spring and summer.

CFS Volunteers Association president Roger Flavell told The Advertiser  that falling volunteer numbers had been a concern for years - but little had been done by the State Government to address the worsening problem.

"We've been concerned for the past few years about the falling numbers and the significant ageing demographic of CFS volunteers," he said.

"If the State Government had to replace CFS volunteers with paid services the cost would be astronomical, yet they are very reluctant to give us a whole lot more support."

When The Advertiser requested an interview with CFS chief officer Greg Nettleton about the issue, it was directed to Emergency Services Minister Jennifer Rankine.

She said the fall in volunteer numbers had not had a noticeable effect on response capability, saying programs were in place to attract and retain volunteers.

"The state's Fire and Emergency Service Volunteer Support Branch has two recruitment and development officers who work with individual brigades to retain volunteers, while assisting with recruitment," she said.

"In the recent State Budget, the Government announced funding of $2.6 million over four years for nationally endorsed training for CFS and SES volunteers."

Mr Flavell said the falling numbers had not placed the CFS at crisis point but said rostering issues for day shifts within 100km of Adelaide were apparent.

"It's definitely a concern (and) because of those falling resources, it seems to be getting harder to get people to travel to other areas on strike teams."

La Trobe University School of Psychological Science Adjunct Professor Jim McLennan, who has studied volunteer retention and attraction in all country fire services in Australia, said it was a difficult issue to address.

"Nobody quite knows what to do, simply because there is not one obvious golden bullet answer," he said.

Prof McLennan said if the trend continued, financial incentives might be needed to attract volunteers.

"There has never been any political will anywhere to do something," he said.

Mr Flavell said there were many issues contributing to falling numbers of volunteers and he couldn't single out one reason why numbers were increasingly falling. "One of the things is the ageing population," he said.

Hahndorf CFS captain Terry Hall, who has volunteered with the service for 26 years, urged people to get involved.

"It's open to all ages providing you are capable of doing the job," he said.

"You can be part of a group of people looking to help others and dedicated to the same outcome of protecting the community."

Mr Flavell said the CFS "desperately needs younger people to be involved".
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pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 10:06:45 AM »
Typical politicians response "there is no problem" I guess she doesn't see what really happens out there, she must think its ok to have 7 BA equipped fire appliances on scene at a house fire and no BA wearers. A lot of people get sick of being taken for granted, second rate trucks, equipment and training for anything above a bushfire.

Maybe they should work on the equality between the services, where a small country town like Kadina or Tanunda can have better and more suitable equipment than a large urban centre like Mt Barker....just because of what service covers it.

Offline SA Firey

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 10:29:32 AM »
Let's face it we lost our identity when it became CFS.

Despite having urban/rural risks in large country towns we are forced to work with appliances that barely cut the mustard.

CFS are forced to work with underpaid staff, who jump ship as soon as a decent offer of another position in another organisation with extra $ comes along.

Bottom line is the government is underfunding our organisation, and people are sick of being used and abused, so why would you hang around.

Compare the CFS workforce of nearly 20,000 volunteers during Stuart Eliss's reign as CO, CFS has shrunk considerably. :-o
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uniden

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 11:23:09 AM »
What policies/procedures are actually in place to retain volunteers ? The minister says there are some but I havent seen any. As to the number of support officers wasnt that severely cut from 1 per region to 2 for the whole state ? Not exactly supporting the volunteers is it. Not to mention that some of the paid staff they employ are clearly not suitable for the positions, as not too many hang around for long.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:15:55 PM by uniden »

pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 11:41:07 AM »
CFS is a farce, and to be honest no one seems to care.

misterteddy

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 04:16:00 PM »
I reckon if you looked at the numbers of "real" members in Mr Ellis's reign, it would have been considerably less....in those days the ladies auxiliaries were counted in the numbers....so 20,000 isn't a true reflection. That said....numbers are going south at a rate, we all know that

While we are talking the old days....credit where it is due, I reckon the base level of fire appliance now is significantly better than in those days. At least everyone is in a seat, out of the rain, with a seatbelt and a mask to go diving in....... the old days of 7 people squeezing onto a plastic bench seat on the back of a Plastic Fantastic trying to stay dry,  or not get sunburnt/smoke logged, belong locked away in the past. Some things are better. What hasnt progressed is trying to make a modern fire appliance with the same amount of money that built a plastic 24 all those years ago

We havent done top end or specialist appliances well at all. Basically I don't think I & E understand just what is required. The new 34P's are atrociously kitted out. With the exception of the Type II pumpers we really don't have a good pumper fleet, although I haven't seen the NZ version yet, nor any reports regards it. We need standalone Rescue-Pumpers that are designed properly, not a Fire Ute equivalent, where we just chuck in everything we need for every job. I'm sure HAZMAT tenders are in the same boat.There is much to do in this area. Why in the 21st Century don't we have an aerial capacity is astonishing. If I had a multi story business in the areas covered by CFS and it was affected by fire, I would be suing the arse off the Government.

The biggest area of concern for most of the people I talk to that are leaving, is the amount of admin that has overtaken and swamped the service. The amount of time Group and Brigade officers spend dealing with some peanut in Region or HQ or even Government is far and away what should be required for a Volunteer position. The SAAS model that has a paid manager (Regional Team Leader) handling the majority of the admin for between 3-6 teams  would be an excellent place to start with CFS. The VSOs only added to the paperwork, they didnt take any of it away, just became the distributers/collectors of it.

Secondly, training/operations is a shambles. The training types are mostly good people but some believe their function is much more and spend more time on operations and less  sorting out ways to make their training better, or making the workload for instructors less. Overall, training needs an overhaul, and some people need to be moved on. Operations, has been and continues to be an absolute disgrace. Any frontline fire fighting service whose only response to a perceived problem with a valid  firefighting tool (think ventilation), is to ban it, should hang its head in shame.....communications from the operations department is pathetic and needs urgent overhaul. The level of expertise in that department is of considerable concern. Money is only part of the problem, if we changed that tomorrow, that would just mean we were paying the wrong people more money - brainpower is the issue. Attracting/keeping the brainpower is a seperate issue

Lastly....my (other)old hobby horse (apart from training)... the Chief. We all know these positions are political in nature. There is a certain amount of game playing that is required to get by day to day. But when the Advertiser is running an article about Volunteer retention in a context of critical shortfalls, surely....surely, the Chief is able to comment on this. This is an issue critical to the service - you must have an opinion or a comment - its YOUR organisation, that's why you're the filtered Chief! If the Minister has placed a gag order on the Service Chiefs (which I don't believe has happened) then the Chief should say so - not just weakly pass the buck. The CFS staff looked pathetic in that article, no inspiring leadership, no taking one for the team, nothing at all we as a Service can take away. Chief, I am afraid to say, I have lost faith in you and your ability to lead us.... I move a motion of no confidence in you.

As for the CFSVA's comment that things aren't critical yet....not sure what planet they are on....again


FRAG where are you when we need you?

Offline JJD

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 09:13:20 PM »
The Chief did supply comments through an interview to the tiser, if they chose not to print any of his information that isn't his fault...
Hmmm, a large unused document that is extremely important, but knowone knows what is in it or what it does.

Must be related to some sort of government department... - Footy


Judge me on the service....not my payslip - misterteddy

misterteddy

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 10:34:25 PM »
no...it never appears to be his fault does it....but he's the Chief, and his direct fault or not, the buck stops with him. Until he owns it, accepts it is HIS fault, he wont change it. When you take the job, you dont get to only own the good bits.

JJD, you seem to know how things roll in HQ...lol, care to elaborate? Journalists don't rate highly in the honesty stakes, we know that, but

Quote
When The Advertiser requested an interview with CFS chief officer Greg Nettleton about the issue, it was directed to Emergency Services Minister Jennifer Rankine.

pretty much says differently in black and white, hard to draw any other conclusion. Was there a scramble for a damage control response after the fact maybe?

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 05:42:02 AM »
Misterteddy, I completely agree with all your points, except this one:

...credit where it is due, I reckon the base level of fire appliance now is significantly better than in those days. At least everyone is in a seat, out of the rain, with a seatbelt and a mask to go diving in....

If you miss that old joy of getting rained on or sunburnt sitting on a plastic bench, you're welcome to come for a ride on our 24 some time!  Sure, the new appliances may be dual cab, but there are hardly enough of them to consider the problem solved are there?

misterteddy

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 06:57:40 AM »
Misterteddy, I completely agree with all your points, except this one:

...credit where it is due, I reckon the base level of fire appliance now is significantly better than in those days. At least everyone is in a seat, out of the rain, with a seatbelt and a mask to go diving in....

If you miss that old joy of getting rained on or sunburnt sitting on a plastic bench, you're welcome to come for a ride on our 24 some time!  Sure, the new appliances may be dual cab, but there are hardly enough of them to consider the problem solved are there?

the program to replace them all isnt an overnight fix, most people would acknowledge this. The problem is more where the new appliances have gone I think. Having said what I've said, the old Plastic 24s will take an absolute flogging, can be just about submerged, and still keep running....not sure the new range of techno-trucks will be doing the same in 25 years time. I'm happy to come ride your old girl anytime SA Firey  :evil: ... no wait..that sounds wrong doesnt it  :-D

Offline tft

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 08:19:55 AM »
I am with you on this Misterteddy, we need a leader to lead. If you sit back and don’t say or make any decision  you can’t be wrong.
A strong leader would place his head on the line, no matter of any political consequences.
Hay  chief just come out and say yes we are under funded, we are the poor cousin when it comes to fire appliances ( Pumprescue had all the right comments on that) training is in a terrible spiral, fire stations falling apart, we can’t keep paid staff and we need more.
The list is getting longer, now Chief if you stood up and made some comment you would have a army behind you not a Mutiny that is starting to happen.

RIP - FRAG 

pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 10:17:47 AM »
RIP CFS....it won't be long

Offline Bagyassfirey

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »
it is really quite genuinely sad as to the position the sevice is in. 14,000 VOLUNTEER members state wide can see we are getting jammed up the rear end but ONE minister cant see Past Nth Terrace!

Is there anything we as volunteers can do??

pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 03:57:25 PM »
Speak up to the public, without fear of retribution from CFS management. They sure as hell don't do it.

Offline cris_aus

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 06:33:08 PM »
Speak up to the public, without fear of retribution from CFS management. They sure as hell don't do it.

After reading the article in the Tiser, I wrote a response with the truth as I see it as a member for more than 17 years, and emailed it to them and cc'ed it to the shadow Minister (as clearly the Minister doesn't really know what's going on).  I have since had a call from both the reporter, who will write a follow up article, and the shadow Minister, who will bring it up with the Minister and the Chief at a meeting this week.

I have never seen fit to go to this extreme before, but I was incensed by the lack of understanding shown, both by Government and CFS hierarchy (which includes their so-called experts) as to why numbers are falling.  It's not difficult to ask a volunteer and get an honest answer, but they don't seem to care - and that in a nutshell is the basic problem.

The only people who really seem to care about our service are the people who aren't getting paid a motza to do the job.  Budgets seem to take precedence over volunteer welfare (ask any volly who has had to stand around doing nothing for hours on end in the middle of the night on strike team to stay out of the way of a dozer that is being paid for by the hour).  Accommodation
 or rest after a one day deployment night shift?  No way - drive back to station with a driver who has been awake for over 30 hours.  That no crew has yet been killed is a minor miracle.

I was paid well in the Army and I expected to be mucked (and they were experts and certainly got their moneys worth).  I don't get paid for CFS service and so I don't expect to be mucked about to the same extent by amateurs who care more about budget than my welfare and don't appear to value my time.

I don't think the question is "why are numbers falling", I think the question should be "why are their any volunteers left?".  Speaking for myself, I only stick around to see what they are going to do to me next.

pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 10:14:57 PM »
The only reason I stick around is because the MFS haven't taken it over......I want someone to turn up if I call 000, certainly not loyal to the organisation anymore.

Offline jaff

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 01:45:21 PM »
To point out the obvious, you are not achieving anything pissing and moaning on here, its election time coming up in some brigades/groups, step up and make a difference at a management level!.
There is NO doubt some office holders are oxygen thieves, but they will continue to steal our services future unless motivated people step up, now is the time!!!
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline SA Firey

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 08:44:41 AM »
To point out the obvious, you are not achieving anything pissing and moaning on here, its election time coming up in some brigades/groups, step up and make a difference at a management level!.
There is NO doubt some office holders are oxygen thieves, but they will continue to steal our services future unless motivated people step up, now is the time!!!

Well said jaff but it's the "boys clubs" that stifle the motivated ones that wanted to step up :evil:
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misterteddy

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 09:38:42 AM »
of course the old "put up or shut up"argument is trotted out a lot, but it's not as simple as that. If paid positions were open to nomination from the floor, then you'd have a fair argument. Even to take up a Group role leaves an individual who wants to see change, hamstrung by the Service Chain of Command - just ask any of the current GOs who've been smacked for being outspoken. The more outspoken you are as a GO, the less slices of favour your Group gets from Region (or HQ), so in the end in order to not adversely affect their teams, most take up a position of frustrated silence - and then leave.

For my part we need a new mechanism to hold the Service and the people in it  (including the Chief and the Minister) accountable to the frontline members and the public; one that can drive change, that isnt funded by the Service (and therefore compromised) and is truly apolitical. Mechanisms like this exist in other areas of Government, it's about time we looked at a similar structure.

Offline jaff

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2012, 09:57:14 AM »
Fair points, but unless you engage with those in a position to make change, change will never occur!

The current touch points we have in the organisation, that can easily put up and push the need for change are  your CFSVA reps and Group Officers.

The CFSVA reps in most groups are inneffective, perhaps because the CFSVA doesn't attract the dynamic people it needs to push effectively their points!

Group Officer role is the other touch point, and yes the combative way of some Group Officers may seem to put their group at risk of  the wrath of region and state, but I cannot think of anytimes this has occurred.

Both of these positions have a direct path for change within the organisation, with the Group Officers ability to push change through their RVMC meetings onto COAC, where their delegate has a vote and the ear of the CO, and your CFSVA reps ability to drive ideas through their committees onto COAC where the CFSVA also has a vote.
The youth delegates? Role in COAC is still a little uncertain, but they also have a vote and the ear of the chief.

Without volunteers putting forward the need for change, change will always be constrained by $$$ and the lack of perceived need to spend them.

Some of you will/have called for a new way to deal with these problems that are currentley confronting us, that may happen over time, but the way it will happen is through the current avenues for change we already have in place, again now is the time for volunteers to stand for positions that can effectively make/drive change within the organisation.
Just Another Filtered Fireman

misterteddy

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2012, 06:37:01 PM »
all fair points Jaff....and you appear  Sir, to be far from Just Another Filtered Firefighter  :wink:

Offline jaff

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2012, 10:48:08 PM »
In the end Teddy, we are all just firefighters! :wink:
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Darius

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 08:31:43 AM »
Group Officer role is the other touch point...

in my observation it's only a couple of group officers who are vocal about problems and it's a bit disappointing the majority appear happy not to rock the boat so hence not much of any importance gets past the RVMC and goes further up the chain.

I do agree with you though that if those willing to challenge the status quo and come up with new ideas don't stand for positions like group officer then we have no chance.

pumprescue

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 09:38:05 AM »
But on the other side if the coin those vocal group officers go against every rule that they themselves insist on and just lose all credibility when arguing for better ways of doing things. In recent months I have heard things like over riding a rescue brigade who wanted to default due to lack of crew and saying its ok you bring the truck and I will call DGO 2 and we will do the cutout. Or using command cars to drive to and from work (sometimes with another fire service!!) what can you do when your at work, group cars belong in the group! Just stupid things like that and we wonder why no one takes us seriously.

Do the right thing yourself then argue the point, don't give them ammunition to go and smash you down.

Offline dale00

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Re: CFS Volunteers fall by thousands
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 06:56:34 PM »
That was not a obvious stab at all was it !