Structure Fire Entanglement Hazard

[6739264]

You're fighting a fire in a medium sized commercial premises. The ceiling falls in on you and your partner. In the mess of ceiling tiles and assorted debris lies bundles and bundles of electrical, telephone, network, and other assorted cabling. The airconditioner ductwork has burnt through to its metal ribbing and has falling in on you as well.

You and your partner are stuck, and massively entangled. You've got a minimum amount of movement but its obvious that you're not going anywhere fast. Visibility is low, as always. You've been in there a while, and your cylinder is emptying by the breath.

What do you do?

[safireservice]

If you've been there a while shouldnt your DSU have gone off by now alerting others there is something wrong?

[6739264]

If you've been there a while shouldnt your DSU have gone off by now alerting others there is something wrong?

If you're not moving...

Not sure about you, but if I'm struggling to free myself, I'm usually wiggling enough to keep my DSU from going into alarm.

[Pipster]

But if you know you are in trouble, don't you just press the button on your DSU to activate it....?

Pip

[Alex]

Activate DSU, and get to work with my knife [assuming i can get into the right pocket] whilst waiting for a miracle considering the training provided to CFS.

[Darcyq]

"....considering the training provided to CFS."

Exactly, this has long been my concern. What does MFS have in place in regard to "Rapid Intervention Teams". There are some very interesting articles on FireEngineering.com about what various US fire services are doing in relation to rescuing trapped fire fighters. I think about what we have in place and it comes down to a couple of Hooligan tools and axes, but if your lucky and one of the brigades attending might also be RCR they might have airbags.

Yes, we have a policy that states there must be two BA members ready to go in whenever there are BA crews inside, but how many are trained to carryout a rescue using these tools in a structural context or know how to make a forced entry, or more importantly a forced egress should the primary entry point become blocked.

I would be interested in seeing some stats on how often internal BA crews get into difficulty (lost, entangled, injured) in Australian fire services compared to what seems to be happening in the US.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

As for this scenario, I wouldn't be going in without a radio. A MAYDAY call quickly gets every bodies attention and you can then tell the OIC the reason for the Mayday and details such as amount of air supply left, injuries, etc. so that they can start managing and resourcing the rescue without wasting time or your air supply.

[Alan (Big Al)]

yeah have to wonder what state the BA system within the CFS is like when a brigade captain is told by supposed people in the know (dont know who they are) that a backup crew isnt required when going into a building that theres nothing wrong with a team going in alone without backup there or on the way 

[bittenyakka]

Well everyone has stated what i would do. but as for the training issue.

I would propose that CFS doesn't train to think beyond the straight and narrow. eg why don't we learn on our BA course to start grabong axes, haligans and other tools to be ready. it is jsut Get ba set and hose and guideline...

[6739264]

Good discussion so far, although it'd be great to hear a little more about how you work through the Hazard with whats in your gear. I know we have one man that carries a knife, anyone else?

Additionally, if you hear a DSU set off and are outside, what are you thinking about? What course of action do you take?

Great pickup on the training areas, can you guess why I started this thread yet?

I'll let this run for a bit longer before I throw my $0.02 into the mix

[tft]

A knife, that will not help too much.
Now if you had a Leatherman will Pliers, it might help some more.

[tft]

yeah have to wonder what state the BA system within the CFS is like when a brigade captain is told by supposed people in the know (dont know who they are) that a backup crew isnt required when going into a building that theres nothing wrong with a team going in alone without backup there or on the way 

One word
SACKED

[bittenyakka]

Well i have noting in my normal gear that would help me. mainly because i am not one to put my own $$ into buying cool knives and tools to be carried on the person. Not to mention tools carried on the person seem to be generally discouraged in CFS.

[Alex]

A knife, that will not help too much.
Now if you had a Leatherman will Pliers, it might help some more.

Depends how good a knife it is mate. Most decent blades will go through light gauge wire easily.

A leatherman would definitely be a better option, but im not as trusting a person as i once was after both a shove knife and pocket knife dissapeared from my gear a couple of years ago. So i wont be leaving $100+ personally owned tools at the station anymore.

[misterteddy]

Great pickup on the training areas, can you guess why I started this thread yet?

you work for Fire and Rescue Australia and are trying to flog their Structural Collapse procedural trainer??   

[tft]

A knife, that will not help too much.
Now if you had a Leatherman will Pliers, it might help some more.

Depends how good a knife it is mate. Most decent blades will go through light gauge wire easily.

A leatherman would definitely be a better option, but im not as trusting a person as i once was after both a shove knife and pocket knife dissapeared from my gear a couple of years ago. So i wont be leaving $100+ personally owned tools at the station anymore.

That's BS if someone has stolen it. But my life is worth more than 100 Bucks. I would like to see you cut through wire with a knife.

[bajdas]

A knife, that will not help too much.
Now if you had a Leatherman will Pliers, it might help some more.

Depends how good a knife it is mate. Most decent blades will go through light gauge wire easily....

Re cutting wire with a knife.... how do you know it is not a live electrical wire that you are about to cut through ?

Ethernet cable for computers is normally 8 core and telephone cables are normally minimum 4 core.

So yes your knife would get through some of the cores, but it would a few hacks before you got through all cores in a single cable.

If you had a major cable run in a false ceiling come down, then you could be dealing with 20 ethernet cables in a bundle. Anymore and I would hope that the cabler used a support tray.

Just some thoughts....

[pumprescue]

I have a Cunninghams special multi tool, I fixed up the dodgy cutting edge on the pliers and it works well. I have been caught in the wires of the air-con ducting and there simply was no way to get out of it, I called for a second team to come in with wire cutters.

As for training, there is none, CFS teach you how to wear a set, and thats it.
The CFS has forgotten about their urban risks.....and the arrogant people that you have to deal with in the BA section make you wonder what the point of being in the CFS is.

[mattb]

Pumprescue is on the mark, one of the biggest hassles I have seen in your standard domestic house fire is the amount of air-conditioning duct cwire that get tangled around everything.

Your helmet torch and the cylinder valve assembly make great points for this stuff to attach itself to. I used my Leatherman at a job a month a go to cut my partner free, it aint no Cunnos $2 special, but it still worked.

[unfknblvable]

Hi im new.
Dont know that much about firefighting yet, but with getting trapped in a house or any other structure, why dosent the CFS do what the Mets do, and use designated RITs?
Have looked at their BA training area, and its fantastic, why cant we use it and get the professional Mets BA instructors to train us, at least then we would all be learning the same stuff.
Like i said im new, so please enlighten me!

[pumprescue]

Mate, if we only knew.....there is nothing, its pretty much what we do down the street....

[Darcyq]

...why doesn't the CFS do what the Mets do, and use designated RITs?

My question is "what do METS have in place in regard to RIT"? We first need hard evidence of what we should have, or be doing before we can request a change by the CFS Management. If METS have a formal training package that covers RIT I'd be interested to know why CFS brigades that also have an urban response don't have access to it. What makes our lives less valuable! Because really, that's what it comes down too.

[6739264]

Ah yes, back to the coalface...

I'll try to stay away from the training discussion and slam all of that into the other Structure Fire training thread.

As I said previously, it's great to see that people are thinking outside the box and starting to equip themselves appropriately.

I would propose that CFS doesn't train to think beyond the straight and narrow. eg why don't we learn on our BA course to start grabong axes, haligans and other tools to be ready. it is jsut Get ba set and hose and guideline...

It's more that the Operate Breathing Apparatus, Open Circuit course is merely that. It teaches you to operate an open circuit breathing apparatus. Its not a Suppress Urban Fire course. It's CABA plus some safe working practices in low visibility. Really, this is not the fault of the CFS, its hard to pack much more into the weekend and we can't forget that some people struggle with the basics of putting an airset on, let alone the rest of the firefighting gig. Urban firefighting needs to be expanded, but there are numerous barriers to that occurring.

A knife, that will not help too much.
Now if you had a Leatherman will Pliers, it might help some more.

On cutting/self rescue tools, I carry a knife and a set of 10" Cable cutters. The knife is for Rescue work, or a last ditch effort to cut my CABA harness; the Cable cutters rip through anything else. I'm not a huge fan of relying on a small multi tool to perform rugged work with structural gloves on. My multi tool sits tucked away on my suspenders.

Well i have noting in my normal gear that would help me. mainly because i am not one to put my own $$ into buying cool knives and tools to be carried on the person. Not to mention tools carried on the person seem to be generally discouraged in CFS.

Some call them "cool knives and tools" but frankly, they're there to serve a lifesaving purpose and from numerous personal experiences, I'd rather have them on me than not. I'm yet to see personal tools discouraged in CFS, whats happened that you've noticed? Sure you might cop a bit of stick, but its your life that it's going to save, no?

you work for Fire and Rescue Australia and are trying to flog their Structural Collapse procedural trainer??   

Haha, I wish! But let's not forget that structural collapse (USAR) and downed firefighter rescue are two totally different things

Pumprescue is on the mark, one of the biggest hassles I have seen in your standard domestic house fire is the amount of air-conditioning duct cwire that get tangled around everything.

Your helmet torch and the cylinder valve assembly make great points for this stuff to attach itself to. I used my Leatherman at a job a month a go to cut my partner free, it aint no Cunnos $2 special, but it still worked.

Exactly, ducting is a pain in the arse. I'm also surprised that more brigades aren't moving to a helmet torch mounted under the brim (far less entanglement hazard), given the number of options that are often cheaper than the current "standard" UK torch mounting options.

...why doesn't the CFS do what the Mets do, and use designated RITs?

My question is "what do METS have in place in regard to RIT"? We first need hard evidence of what we should have, or be doing before we can request a change by the CFS Management. If METS have a formal training package that covers RIT I'd be interested to know why CFS brigades that also have an urban response don't have access to it. What makes our lives less valuable! Because really, that's what it comes down too.

Call me crazy, but why do we have to follow the lead of SAMFS? There are other agencies in Australia that have a decent RIT setup, although nowhere near what is being implemented around the US. Why don't we look at how the Yanks run their RIT operations?

Its not hard to have an assigned crew who then get the required equipment and standby only for firefighter rescue.

[unfknblvable]

All this expertise from non urban brigades is very enlightening.
If you have become entangled then what were you doing entering a structure when the integrity of it is questionable? Safety first remember!
You may not like asking the professionals for guidance for whatever reason, so look to the USA if you wish, but first try reading the stats on how many lives they lose, an Good Luck.

[6739264]

All this expertise from non urban brigades is very enlightening.
If you have become entangled then what were you doing entering a structure when the integrity of it is questionable? Safety first remember!
You may not like asking the professionals for guidance for whatever reason, so look to the USA if you wish, but first try reading the stats on how many lives they lose, an Good Luck.

Wow, you're certainly living up to your user name.

Lets try this again, engage your brain, then post. 

[unfknblvable]

My username relates directly to what i read on this forum.
And you numbers, illustrate this perfectly.Full of theories, pity you werent in a position to try them and then you may see just how amateur hour you sound.