34p pump sizes

[bittenyakka]

In order of year onwards what pumps have been put on 34ps ?

04/2005-?
05/2006-?
07/08
08/09
09/10- some 500gpm single stage

[Darren]

The last of the old cab style 34P's had GAAM MK450's that are 2 stage, all the rest are darley 500 GPM single stage.

[BundyBear]

Does not really matter in the past they have been to small and the current builds are to small as well. Hope you're not at an urban fringe brigade that may go to an MFS job and have to boost an aerial as you wont be able to not to mention sprinkler systems as well.

CFS management just don't get it they need to release that these hybrid type of appliances like 34P/24P just do not cut it at urban fringe brigades or busy brigades in major country towns. Maybe fine for less busier brigades!

The corporate answer is they do not receive funding for large decent pumpers that not only have the pump capacity for moving large amounts of water at high pressure but are better platforms to work from for brigades that response to large amounts of structure, RCR or other incidents of an urban nature.

The current corporate model is to worry only about rural incidents which are left miles behind on the statistics of what a lot of brigades go to now days.

END OF RANT!

[bajdas]

......
The corporate answer is they do not receive funding for large decent pumpers that not only have the pump capacity for moving large amounts of water at high pressure but are better platforms to work from for brigades that response to large amounts of structure, RCR or other incidents of an urban nature.
............

Personally I am going to be a curious spectator during the next few years on what fire services do in the newly legislated defined urban fringe area. Will it be more MFS trucks which are like the Port Lincoln hybrid ? Will it be a shared CFS/MFS area ? Will someone finally work on the risk to the public and at least partially fund to cover that risk, or will it continue to be political ?

Sorry for taking this off topic, but the politics are beginning to 'filtered me off' again when they affect volunteers.

END of RANT

[BundyBear]

Got to agree with you Bajdas Corporate CFS is becoming more and more removed from liaising closely with CFS brigades and the disparity between the two services is growing and is the MFS at fault, I say no obviously as their managers are probably better at getting across their business needs.

Those 34P’s are a shocking appliance to work off of especially if your at a brigade that carries 4 CABA sets and rescue gear on the appliance. Everything is stored all over the appliance due to space issues and poor layout at the design phase. The rear pump panel has valves all over the place and once again the appliances moves alright along the flat but have not real acceleration or torque for hill climbs and I’m not saying we need frightfully quick appliances just ones suited to the task. Bit embarrassing when you’re going P1 up a hill and you’ve got a fleet of civilian vehicles behind you.

[bittenyakka]

ok

Well we just Got a new 34p and really like it yes i'll give you that the pump panel and valves are a bit awkward but and the 65mm hoses are a bit squashed and not enough hose  space in general but we can re arrange a few things, yes it would be full with RCR gear. But it is a very Good truck

Bundy? do you get the infralog and are you sending Decent letters to Mr Tindall? I have heard him say many times bot him person and email to send in ideas to I&L. it will work better than here.

Should we really base our trucks on having to boost large multi story buildings? this happens maybe once in 6 years at my count (for CFS)

What is wrong with building CFS appliances so that at a large job each truck runs at a max 2 38mm or 1 64mm? if it is that huge you will want the crews so the trucks will be there any how. also I don;t think SA has many large mains to support the huge pumps. the recent Plastics fire and pool shop fire both had water issues at the main irrelevant of the pump size.

bitten

[BundyBear]

Bittenyakka,

Your new 34P is probably better than the old appliance you had at your station but there is still more room for advancement in the CFS current fleet and if you’re not at a bust station they would probably work ok.

The pump panel on the 34P's is agricultural.
Storage of equipment leaves a lot to be desired if it was a decently designed appliance you'd have hoses all in one locker RCR equipment in one, at the moment gear is stored all over the appliance. Plus the trucks are slugs up hills. Also to my knowledge there has not been too many builds without issues, so you have to ask the question who is looking after quality assurance?

Also if there were real pumpers not 34P's placed strategically within the state they could be used tactically and efficiently in the states response.

At the moment we have a lot of brigades that respond on the urban fringe of Adelaide and other major country towns where they interface with the MFS. Currently these brigades as I've said in previous statements get told no you can't have a pumper because we don’t have the funding for it and MFS area is not our problem. We still expect you to respond into that area under EMA agreements, plus it would be political suicide for those brigades not to assist.

So therefore when we are in MFS area and that second appliance arriving could be CFS it is meant to go to the sprinkler system to boost under the response plan that can not happen with the size of current pumps on CFS 34P’s. Also our pumps are unable to boost aerial appliances due to the size of the pump. These pumps could also be beneficial when they respond into CFS areas as they won’t generally be first arriving and they can boost from the mains to other CFS appliances or supply a large volume of water if required.

Bittenyakka your theory of only using one 64mm hose or two 38mm hoses at a time does not always work. I’ve been to a number of incidents in the first arriving appliance when the second is still a while away the structure has been well involved and protection lines are called for to protect exposures before any offensive tactics are put in place to extinguish the involved structure so multiple hose lines and decent volume and pressure is required. So you need multiple hose lines working on the first arriving appliance. Also your statement of saying just wait for more appliances is that the best answer and the issue of fire mains not having enough supply that can be managed and you’ve only highlighted 2 incidents out of how many multiple alarm incidents and I was at the pool shed fire and did not experience any pressure decrease but that may be true as two aerials were in operation and other hose lines.

As for sending emails to Arthur Tindall is that my job he is the manager of I&L he should have his staff coming out and talking to brigades that have had new designs of appliances for a while to gain feedback not us chasing him. He gets paid money to manage the fleet not me!
could be used tactically and efficiently in the states response. At the moment we have a lot of brigades that response on the urban fringe of Adelaide and other major country towns where they interface with the MFS. Currently these brigades as I've said in previous statements get told no you can't have a pumper

[Pipster]

That may well be the case in the urban fringe Bundy bear, but for many other areas of the state, a 34P is quite an adequate vehicle!

In the case of bittenyakka's response area, and the surrounding areas, there is hardly any mains water (in fact, if you go left from that station, there is one private hydrant point within about 10 km of that station...and it doesn't have great pressure. 

In much of bittenyakka's Group response area there are no hydrants what so ever - so it is all very well having a great big pump...all it means is you run out of water more quickly!!!  Connecting multiple lines to it is generally just an exercise in bowling out hoses!!!

The issue of whether the 34P is a suitable vehicle or not really comes down to one size doesn't fit everyone!!


As for backing up MFS - do we see metro MFS with light 4 x 4 vehicles, to assist CFS just in case CFS call on them for assistance on the urban fringe?

Are we responsible for ensuring that our equipment covers another service's  area?   

Since the budget that CFS gets is not a bottomless pit of money, CFS have to make do with what they get - and try their best to ensure that the whole state is covered for equipment - not just the urban fringe.

Ultimately, it comes back to governments not funding CFS appropriately - something that has been going on for some time....... discussions on this website have highlighted what we can do about that!!

As for feedback to Infrastructure & Logistics - I know of several instances where that has been done, and now IS & L are looking at the feedback that has been made, and doing something about it (eg a suggestion was made to bring back 24 sized appliances, for areas not well suited to the physical size of the 34's - something IS & L are looking into.)

When new appliances are delivered to brigades, there is a feedback sheet to go with it, and brigades are encouraged to give feedback - and some changes have been made to successive builds of 34's & 34P's  (Remembering of course, that it is not a simple process to change a build part way through a run!!)

So a 34P might not suit your brigade, but for many brigades, it works well.

Are we ever going to get the "perfect" fire truck - probably not, but at least we are getting new appliances, hopefully with each new build, improvements are made, so we do end up with a good, suitable appliance.   

Look at the appliances we had 25 years ago, compared to what we have now..... a vast improvement - not perfect, but an improvement!@

Pip

[Darren]

The only thing I would change on the 34P is to have a slightly larger pump (not sure if you can get an engine driven 750GPM pump) and have 4 in 4 out.
 
Also think it would be nice to have 2 versions, 1 without such a massive crew deck, such as the Tassie 3.1P, which only has a half deck for those very very very few times that some of us use the deck.

Perhaps change the rear end to be like the Type 2, flake trays and a single reel. The reel is useless for anything but a grass fire, no one in their right mind should be taking the reel into a house fire, they are to dangerous with their low pressure and output.

If they did that then I don't think it would be an issue.

Having said that, as our second appliance its not bad, but if it was our ONLY appliance I would have some issues as listed aboice with the current configuration. But as we have a pumper as our first response urban appliance the mix works well.

I don't care who you are, but the 2 pumps just don't compare. You notice a massive difference in performance and ability when going from the pumper to the 34P.

But like Pip says, the one size fits all is a nice idea, but doesn't always work, I am sure her brigade will face the same issues when their 24 comes up for replacement, is a 34 sutiable for her area.....at the end of the day, if you chose to accept the 34P and say nothing about it, then who do you blame...we faced that issue and got the outcome we wanted....it was  a lot of hard work, which is another story in itself....and they want to cut our funding !!

[BundyBear]

Pipster

If you read what I've written I don't completely write off the 34P's I just make comment that they are lacking for busy brigades and may be fine for brigades that go to less calls. I feel pumpers should be looked at in some larger country towns and urban fringe locations the issue with the 34P's the storage is of concern for brigades that carry RCR and the storage lay out leaves a lot to be desired and the pump size is an issue as well as the poorly designed pump panel. The bigger the pump yes it will go through water quicker any monkey can work that out and manage it do you think every location where urban fringe brigades response have good water supply!

MFS do not require 4x4 appliances on the urban fringe as there are many 4x4 CFS appliances and yes they do support CFS with strike teams for assest protection, will respond into CFS area to assist even with aerial appliances if you require them and MFS have 14's and a couple of 24's in there regional stations. Also no we are not responsible for covering another services area but is that the best attitude to have when it comes to community service/protection and why not give our fire fighters the best tools for the job we don't pay them. Let's not play bash the MFS game it's kind of old and boring now!

If the Infrastructure & Logistics department of CFS is doing such a good job why are just about every build project they do full of issues causing delays, appliances given to brigades then taken back for repair and when that brigade losses that appliance the fleet replacement is that old it is bordering on OHS&W issues and who is managing the Q/A of these projects?

Yes funds are an issue but why are some services managing funds better could it be down to management and is it not their job to fight for funding not sit on their hands and fear their contract won't be renewed?

Look at appliances 25 years ago? That is like comparing chalk with cheese look at the car you had in your driveway 25 year ago to now!

[crashndash]

seeing as we are a universe away from the initial post, someone may like to start a new Thread about What we need in a 34P or something