Author Topic: SES vs CFS responses - split from Interesting Paging (Read 40371 times)

firegun · « **on:** August 25, 2009, 03:02:24 PM »

SCC: *CFSRES TASK NO 55. RESPOND TREE DOWN. CASTERTON ROAD PENOLA 5277. ON MAIN RD. SAPOL MT. GAMBIER. P1. BWN. SES Bordertown Response

interesting response. They are at least 100k away from Penola.
There would be 40+ CFS brigades closer, including Penola who would do this job many times a year.

Zippy · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:38:34 PM »

thats SES for you.

firegun · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:58:51 PM »

took a while, finally got the right brigade paged for the tree job at Penola
(perhaps couldnt wait 90 min for them to turn up)
some jobs have come in closer to home

Zippy · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2009, 04:44:05 PM »

I wonder if theres any other place on earth that has three set's of response SOP's for Fire/Rescue for the same location??

chook · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:28:41 AM »

Not sure about the question you pose Zippy - but it would be close

I'm pretty sure that SCC can't turnout none SES units (I remember being despatched to Swan Reach once during a major storm event - until I pointed out to SCC how far away that was from Berri). The unit DO would have informed SCC about the distance & to use closer resources. Sadly it is the stupid system that has been set up in SA - initially by the councils to save money & latter carried on by state government for political reasons. If every council area had to raise at least one SES unit & for rural/ remote locations one rural fire unit then this wouldn't keep coming up! And as the lead agency for storm & flood SES needs to be able to control all resources during such events!
cheers (we had 104 kmph winds & not one job!)

pumprescue · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:50:31 AM »

Yeah lets set up an SES and CFS in every rural area........who needs 2 and a Half men when you can read this crap.

crashndash · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:55:17 AM »

Quote from: chook on August 26, 2009, 06:28:41 AM

And as the lead agency for storm & flood SES needs to be able to control all resources during such events!
cheers (we had 104 kmph winds & not one job!)

ahhh yes....its aaaaaalllll about control isnt it

Pipster · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:58:23 AM »

Why isn't it as simple as the nearest & most appropriate resource is dispatched?

Oh yeah, that's what we're supposed to have...but it would appear that current policy, and what actually happens are two different things!!

Pip

chook · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:59:57 AM »

Quite correct Pip - so why doesn't it work? Because despite all of the talk, each of the services still doesn't quite know what the others have & everone still wants to protect their own little empire - don't need the others!"Control is about the ability to despatch whatever appropriate & closest resources (regardless of service) not command which stays with the parent service! I know during a major wildfire when there are multiple agencies involved, CFS has control of all of those assets while the parent service (SAMFS/SASES) commands its own assets. Why is this concept so hard for people to grasp when it is the other way around?
If a town of 400 people can have a fire service, a rescue service & a storm/flood service, why can't it happen elswhere?
I am constantly amazed by the comments that appear everytime a storm/flood event occurs in SA & the crap about closest resource - the theory is correct but in practice hard to achieve if the agency responsible for the response has one hand tied behind it's back by interservice politics! And it is hard to use the most appropriate resource when everyone has different equipment levels/types, levels of training etc. Just to remind everyone again the State emergency service has legislative responsibilty for this task in every state (regardless of FESA, EMQ, SAFECOM)! filtered it's not hard. Finally why is it in other states the volunteer base is expanding while in SA it's shrinking? Maybe because we are demanding too much. On that note bye 4 now

Zippy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26, 2009, 10:28:34 AM »

Bring on SACAD....then a new Integrated Control Centre perhaps...where there would be a single set of Response procedures ONLY.

An Idea, SES dont jump on me
1st Response to a Tree down (Assessing Brigade): Closest CFS..if SES arent closest.
2nd response (Assisting Brigade): Next Closest CFS or SES.
2nd Response (Specialist Brigade): Closest Specialised SES.
3rd Response (Additional Resources): Next Closest CFS or Specialist SES.

pumprescue · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26, 2009, 01:27:06 PM »

Because most of us are smart enough to know that their is no point having stupdily expensive vehicles sitting there most of the time, most people struggle to crew 1 vehicle, let alone half a dozen.

Think about it, you just said yourself people are sick of having to much put on them, so why join half a dozen different services.

99% of the time the jobs are cutting up tree's and tarping, with the odd sandbagging job.

Can't remember a real full on USAR style job happened, if ever.

Anytime ropes are mentioned the job ends up being done by state staff...you know what I mean.....

It annoyed the hell out of me yesterday when the SCC were pumping out jobs flat out to units that were 50+ kms away.

And you wanna cane MFS comms, they have to follow the same stupid rules.

Zippy · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:28:08 PM »

i think the amount of jobs that Lobethal CFS/SES defaulted amounted to roughly 20???

Id hate being paged at 1am, for a call in Eden Valley...

jaff · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:28:23 PM »

The system we have now is excellent, why would you bother local volunteers with the correct equipment and training to go to local events, when we can call in other volunteers from miles and miles away.

Bugger the public "We pay our taxes and levies and waa waa waa" you can just hear it now!

"WAKE UP SERVICES" get over protecting your duties and patch and serve the friggin public properly......FARKKK this shitte is wrong!

Can anyone of you think of any rational friggin reason for not using the closest most appropriate resource? If you can think of one, perhaps take a Blooody good look at yourself and ask whether you are still in it for the right reasons!

and if you still think its valid.
Then put your reasons up here if you think they are still noble and let the masses give you another perhaps reasoned perspective! and maybe a reality friggin check

put "Mr Angry" in here coz I couldnt find "Mr Can O Whooparsee"

Zippy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:36:40 PM »

"Our Chainsaws are Diamond Tipped?"

:P:P

chook · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2009, 05:19:50 PM »

Excellent response Jaff & pumprescue as per normal - so HQ/Comms know what resources are located at each brigade & those personnel have had adequate training to deal with the response.
Having worked with CFS & MFS crews on major storm damage operations, & being part of the incident management team on at least one, I couldn't find out who had a chainsaw, work at height equipment, training in work at height, storm damage ops etc, without asking each crew individually. Whilst I agree with your sentiments pumprescue, until that information is available to Incident managers (where ever they are located)& state operations centres, then how the filtered are you supposed to know "the closest appropriate resource?". I do know form bitter experience the wide variation of what is carried on fire appliances, including whether or not the chainsaw is a) adequate b) operational. And while we are at it Jaff Why would a certain fire service reject the offer of pumps (including floatation) & boats, then turn around and order more floation pumps & jeez it would be great to have a boat in the same area! So its got filtered all to do with turf protection - more to do with standardisation across the service in both equipment & training. So back to your original point - totally agree with closest appropraite response don't give a filtered about what color it is as long as it is appropriate & you don't know that without intel

By the way most people have nil problem with wearing more than one hat if they want to & are able to.
cheers & have a good one

pumprescue · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2009, 05:50:30 PM »

I don't have an issue with SES coming to jobs, but I do have an issue with jobs being dispatched when people have to drive past multiple other services to get to them.

Zippy, your Lobethal example is perfect, anything outside of the Lobethal/Charleston area was sent to the local fire service. You just wonder why, they seem to only have the "SES" tag to get the extra gear CFS don't provide. So, one has to ask, why do we persist with this.

If you ask some people, Noarlunga is the only SES unit capable of doing anything above the level of a search/storm damage

Robert-Robert34 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:45:56 PM »

If the chainsaw doesnt work theres always an axe or wood splitter if both are sharp enough

chook · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:55:55 PM »

There are some in SES who asked the same question

And I think they have got "smart" why keep fighting an organisation who won't give you the gear or training when another will!

Pumprescue - only those who are 1)from Noarlunga b) have a history with that unit or c) have no idea on what goes on outside of Adelaide

Despite everything I said above, I totally agree with what you are saying - as long as the right criteria is used, as per previous comments.
I'm just not sure how this issue can be fixed, other than my previous suggested solution (which met with such stong support

). Keeping in mind Duty of care, OHS & other mandated requirements! So I think all I can say, the problem really lays with those who run your collective organisations - not the troops on the ground. And if I was the boss of the SES unit involved in this particular case, I would have got more details & recommended sending the closest CFS unit with a chainsaw if that was all that was required (& stayed home)- done it before several time in fact e.g. flooding road, need a big pump - call on the closest fire unit. After all everyone knows they have the biggest hoses!

ON THAT NOTE HAVE A GOOD NITE

Pipster · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:06:45 PM »

We certainly can't assume that SES crews have the training & equipment. A SES unit attended a call today for a tree down, completely blocking a road (albeit a minor one).

Three SES members attended, none of whom had a chainsaw ticket, so they started cutting up the tree with bow saws. Some time later, the two nearest CFS brigades were called...who had chainsaws & trained operators....

So who knows who has the right gear / training etc.... isn't that what BOMS, (and eventually SACAD) are supposed to tell you?

But, after 14 months of the interim CRD, we still have inappropriate data in BOMS, countless CRD issues forms submitted (I can just about recite the whole form, I've been filling in so many) and the promise of SACAD to save the world..... and still the wrong resource is sent....

Pip

jaff · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Robert-Robert34 on August 26, 2009, 06:45:56 PM

If the chainsaw doesnt work theres always an axe or wood splitter if both are sharp enough

Robert you could use them to cut down that tree in your backyard and get your kite back!

Zippy · « **Reply #20 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:50:42 PM »

Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...

"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".

crashndash · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:32:45 PM »

whenever we have these threads appear.....its always one name that appears to be stoking the fire.....i wonder why he bothers so much living in another place

As for me....i dont much care how many tree jobs or roof jobs the SES gets, bring them on I say.....last thing i feel like doing is getting out of my nice warm bed at stupid o'clock in the rain for some dickheads tree that they were too lazy to trim, or too cheap to pay to be removed. Same for storm damage.......climb over all the rooves u like boys....i'll happily watch from the bottom. I'm much happier NOT burning the relationships my members have with their employers to be released for callouts on parks and gardens stuff

Why is it like it is?....it's called Activity Based Funding.....don't do the jobs, dont get the money....and CFS is just the same....watch ur Brigade/Group funding drop if u fall below 100 calls in a year.

My only irk in the whole thing is watching a Unit with tens of thousands of dollars of hydraulic rescue equipment, supposedly for the Adelaide 9/11 event.....that spend their time cutting up cars practising vehicle rescue, with 3 MFS/CFS Rescue Brigades all around them..... By all means buy the biggest, bestest and brightest chainsaws and tarps.......and leave the other stuff to the people who do it for real.

pumprescue · « **Reply #22 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:53:34 PM »

I only care when they are driving long distances for no reason.

Yeah, talk about annoying with the equipment dished out for the "9/11" event. to think of all that gear sitting there doing nothing that could be in use, especially when you have CFS and SES RCR units doing it tough with bare essentials, and no airbags and things like that.

Ahhh, SA, the wannabe state, that seems to have no idea.

bajdas · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:58:43 PM »

It is sometimes quite amusing reading everyone statements about empires, training levels, conspiracy theories, etc. I am glad I was delayed in reading this thread due to callouts so I get a great laugh....

Quite simply the interim database that is used is limited in its functionality. This has been happening for a few years now while the long long awaited SACAD is built has the replacement.

The database does not have all of the non-SES details. So it is left to the local Unit or RDO to allocate taskings to other local resources using local knowledge.

Yes, this takes longer and a dual dispatch process. But I would prefer dollars spent on new equipment, training, etc for front-line volunteers. I understand the database will not be upgraded because SACAD be the replacment (when it eventually arrives).

Remember that all 000 calls go via Adelaide Fire with the BOMS database. So this is designed for storm damage response (whihc many people on this forum think is nothing anyway).

SES like CFS, have limited financial resources..

*** My personal knowledge only & not ofofficial from SES ***

bajdas · « **Reply #24 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:03:10 PM »

SES Priority code posting withdrawn 28/8. Not fully accurate.