Author Topic: Are we kidding ourselves? (Read 28750 times)

jaff · « **on:** June 30, 2009, 04:28:04 PM »

Darren or one of the other Adelaide fire boys can you let us know how you coped with todays weather event, paging out and comms wise?
Realistically, it was a small non event but you guys seemed swamped......and the powers that be tell us everything will be okay

when and if we have a big one!. Well are you sure, me I am starting to think maybe sometimes... we maybe sometimes.....well you know......uummm ..... get buullshitted too.....or those rose coloured glasses have been doing the rounds again!

crashndash · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2009, 08:43:05 PM »

jaff....i'm with you...listening in today from 1000....there were numerous times when calls to AF went unreplied, info missed...they were genuinely under the pump with their paging if stations wanted default pages sent......just a little scary considering it didnt generate more that more than a cpl hundred jobs, many of them low priority....

Zippy · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2009, 09:13:16 PM »

ringing them by phone for everything except Mobilisation and Alarm upgrades, should be or "is" the standard practice is it not....

remembering the bulk of MFS's radio work is done on MFS Metro 150, 1 bloke on that radio all the time...and just 1 radio operator for Country Radio (8 radio channels). undoubtably the 5 others were busy with phones or other things...The only thing that can help things is when an operator is available to do "something else" like be the 3rd radio operator randomly...

Remember voice requesting....it puts your callsign onto a computer screen queue.

jaff · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2009, 10:34:50 PM »

I am hearing ya zipster and dont get me wrong, I am not blaming the operators! They in my opinion are set up for failure and on a not so out of the ordinary day like Tuesday were under the pump, but we keep hearing from CFS comms, that everything is just tickety boo

. Just curious thats all!

crashndash · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:34:14 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on June 30, 2009, 09:13:16 PM

ringing them by phone for everything except Mobilisation and Alarm upgrades, should be or "is" the standard practice is it not....

remembering the bulk of MFS's radio work is done on MFS Metro 150, 1 bloke on that radio all the time...and just 1 radio operator for Country Radio (8 radio channels). undoubtably the 5 others were busy with phones or other things...The only thing that can help things is when an operator is available to do "something else" like be the 3rd radio operator randomly...

Remember voice requesting....it puts your callsign onto a computer screen queue.

Zippy....sorry common complaint today was that AF couldnt be contacted on the usual phone numbers to acknowledge pages, or to request default ones sent

Sorry, if that is the standard then why dont we just use telstra call centre and save the cost of a Communications Centre .....ringing in IS not how a professional response system is worked anywhere in the world.....if there is 1 operator for a piddly amount of TG150 calls....and 1 operator for everything else....then guess who is being shitcanned again in terms of the service we get. Was there truly only 5 operators to receive 000 calls and relieve for breaks etc today?

Today was forecast to be bad......we should have had a better service in place

Again.....not dissing individuals concerned....just the system

Zippy · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:40:07 PM »

the worst combination of things can happen on a day like today. just a single example:

All 7 phones ringing at once + a bankup of calls.

All those jobs paged out within a 10 minute block....imagine how many "non-000" phone calls will then flow into the phone system, let alone radio traffic which in itself is spread over roughly 10 radio channels.

Have to think about how much may go on in the background for a simple Private Alarm or Vehicle Accident...roughly at least 3+ phone calls, and say a gazzlion radio transmissions?

Yeah...the system is gay. Both the system that the adelaide fire operators use, and the system firefighters have to use.

jaff · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2009, 12:36:10 AM »

Quote from: Zippy on June 30, 2009, 11:40:07 PM

Yeah...the system is gay.

So something is ..........either fishy, or.........smells like shitte

Alex · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2009, 08:00:01 AM »

just remember, there are 7 operational consoles plus the officer in comms

yesterday one metro [150 plus emerg channels] plus on country radio [8 TGs then 7 once SES SCC opens] and 5 call takers.

considering the number of jobs on the board i would think theyd be pretty busy with call taking [as pointed out general business/acks as well as emerg calls] and notifications.

Darius · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2009, 10:35:57 AM »

well some people might be being kidded but probably not many. I think it is widely known that adelaide fire simply won't cope if we have a properly busy day in summer. No fault of their own, as someone mentioned above, but it is set up to fail.

But what hope have we got when CFS HQ are advising brigades to ring 000 and ask for 'fire' to respond additional resources (Ops Planning newsletter Dec 2008) instead of ringing adelaide fire direct.

For my group I just try to ensure we have the procedures and methods in place to handle as much as possible ourselves. Is this improved service or progress? no way but what else can you do.

Darren · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2009, 10:54:05 AM »

I worked, all the calls were disptached, every console was manned, which doesn't normally happen, but we didn't have anyone away for a change, 000 calls were still banked up, which means your lower priority calls won't get through, GRN 150 was flat out, Country radio was flat out. All the call takers were flat out, and SES took an hour to open, so we had all the SES lines which are a priority line as well.

After some time pushing we have been allocated a 5th operator, but at the end of the day it was a busy period, everyone worked through, no breaks were taken until it slowed down later. So that's how it will operate on a busy day, nothing more we can do from our end. You just need to keep calling either on radio or phone, if it takes you 10 tries on the radio so be it, can tell you right now, you weren' being ignored on purpose. Bit hard to talk on 2 radios at once.

I think all things condsidered, it worked well, couldn't have worked any better with what we had at our disposal.

Thats all I will say

bajdas · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2009, 10:58:00 AM »

Interesting comments....yes the telephone lines were overloaded yesterday and people were ringing other numbers...and yes things will get better with integrated systems....BUT

* how many operators, telephone systems and associated costs do you want ?

Between SES & MFS ComCens you would have had 10 plus telephone operators working at any one time. Then, additional CommsOut operators were seperate in SES.

I personally would prefer the balanced approach to funding so that some money flows to better buildings, volunteer support, vehicles, preventative measures, etc rather than throw it all at comcens so that they can answer your telephone calls.

I am glad that local SES Units were contacting CFS Brigades for assistance during yesterday. Thanks to everyone for the co-ordinated effort and working together to help the community.

Hopefully the SES person makes a full recovery from his injuries.

Personal belief....do you honestly believe that any telephone system will cope if masses of people call at the same time ? I dont think the technology exists.

Anyway, pagers just gone off so I better respond. See ya.

bajdas · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:03:09 AM »

Just a question....did any CFS Regions open ComCens to assist busy Brigades yesterday and thus provide you an alternative for operations support ?

Zippy · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:07:03 AM »

Quote

Just a question....did any CFS Regions open ComCens to assist busy Brigades yesterday and thus provide you an alternative for operations support ?

Region One Headquarters + Radio Commmunication's = non-existant...

But i believe Region Two is a bit different??

Imagine this process...
GRN 124 - "Adelaide Fire, Hicks Flat Pumper.... Mobile incident 279 ...."
GRN 125 - **hicks flat moves to channel, listening only** (Gives any Arrival, Upgrade, Sitrep, Stop Messages to Region 1 HQ if no volunteer station is open)

Ding Dong Station is manned, listening on 125.
Ding Dong station contacts Region 1 HQ by Phone. Taking Communications for Incident 125.

GRN 125 - "All Appliances responding to Incident 279 #type, location#, Talkgroup 155 through Ding Dong Station"

jaff · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:49:37 AM »

Quote from: Darren on July 01, 2009, 10:54:05 AM

I worked, all the calls were disptached, every console was manned, which doesn't normally happen, but we didn't have anyone away for a change, 000 calls were still banked up, which means your lower priority calls won't get through, GRN 150 was flat out, Country radio was flat out. All the call takers were flat out, and SES took an hour to open, so we had all the SES lines which are a priority line as well.

After some time pushing we have been allocated a 5th operator, but at the end of the day it was a busy period, everyone worked through, no breaks were taken until it slowed down later. So that's how it will operate on a busy day, nothing more we can do from our end. You just need to keep calling either on radio or phone, if it takes you 10 tries on the radio so be it, can tell you right now, you weren' being ignored on purpose. Bit hard to talk on 2 radios at once.

I think all things condsidered, it worked well, couldn't have worked any better with what we had at our disposal.

Thats all I will say

Darren, I have been at pains to point out, "I am not having a go" at the operators!
Just pointing out you guys were swamped/inundated in a very short period as the front moved through, this is too a small extent what could be expected on a bad fire day if 1 or 2 fires get up and running in the peri urban area and isnt now the time to gauge capacity and ask questions?
I hope the senior comms people are paying attention and reviewing procedures.
I promise to hug an operator next time I see one...................................maybe!

bajdas · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:53:12 AM »

Congratulations to the MFS ComCen operator who very quickly answered the emergency GRN button calls yesterday.

From a volunteer, it was very reassuring to know they were answered quickly & profesionally when the centre is busy.

chook · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2009, 01:52:42 PM »

Jaff, reading with interest what's coming out of the Black Saturday Inquest & this thread - both highlight the fact that the system can be overloaded.
400 plus jobs? Not a bad effort - Sydney/Newcastle 19000+, so I guess it really is scale!
The comcen answers to your questions were quite correct, prioritise & keep on calling! I'm not sure where you are heading with your recent threads, seems like you want major improvement (in fact a perfect world) & has been pointed out previously it may not be possible

Finally I too would like to express my best wishes & a speedy recovery to the person who was injured & a well done to all who were active yesterday.
cheers

Zippy · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:33:09 PM »

Quote from: chook on July 01, 2009, 01:52:42 PM

Jaff, reading with interest what's coming out of the Black Saturday Inquest & this thread - both highlight the fact that the system can be overloaded.
400 plus jobs? Not a bad effort - Sydney/Newcastle 19000+, so I guess it really is scale!
The comcen answers to your questions were quite correct, prioritise & keep on calling! I'm not sure where you are heading with your recent threads, seems like you want major improvement (in fact a perfect world) & has been pointed out previously it may not be possible
Finally I too would like to express my best wishes & a speedy recovery to the person who was injured & a well done to all who were active yesterday.
cheers

Victoria uses there Regional Operation Centre's when times like Febuary 7th occur. There's just no such backup plans here that i know of.....

crashndash · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2009, 04:08:04 PM »

if we think about it logically....the response yesterday should have been no different to the response on the fireground....when u get busier than u can control....you sectorise. AF Comms needs to be able to be devolved to Region Ops Centres quickly (remember this WAS forecast - no excuses for no manning). and if needed, down to Groups to manage their own areas....Remember the span of 5 thing in AIMS......thats not some nerds theory...its actually research. This frees more people in MFS Coms to call take and dispatch...and leave the admin radio chatter (mobile, arrived, sandwiches needed etc to the other bases).

When the same happens in summer...its the only way we will survive.

The next question.....was the State Emergency Centre activated, if not why not?? What is the plan for answering 000 calls when 5 operators (such a ridiculous number for the circumstances)are swamped? Is there a state 000 overflow plan? Whats the plan for just a fraction of the 10,000 Triple 0 calls like were witnessed in Vic? Why dont we have a floor of somewhere with computer stuff and phones ready to hook into the network, a network, any network.....surely it cant be that hard....hell u could even have the filtered thing in Mumbai and it would help.

Wayne....more ammunition mate...I hope you're taking notes

jaff · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2009, 04:51:01 PM »

Quote from: chook on July 01, 2009, 01:52:42 PM

Jaff, I'm not sure where you are heading with your recent threads, seems like you want major improvement (in fact a perfect world) & has been pointed out previously it may not be possible

Yeh, Chook your right......we should settle for mediocrity, I am sure that a coroner would understand...........or maybe not!

jaff · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2009, 04:57:02 PM »

Quote from: crashndash on July 01, 2009, 04:08:04 PM

The next question.....was the State Emergency Centre activated, ??

Yes it was, as it was today.

bajdas · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2009, 05:02:36 PM »

From a base volunteer perspective....
* CFS & MFS liason officers were at SES State Operations Centre yesterday during the storm event.
* I did not hear the SA State Emergency Centre go active, but SAPOL (SEC co-ordinator) and SA Goverment would have been updated by SES SitReps via chain of command.
* 000 calls do auto failover to other comcens that are on the comms loop.
* SES State Operations Centre, SES Central Region & SES North Region Ops Centres manned. East & West REegion Duty Officers contacted often.

I agree with Chook's posting, this event was small compared to NSW or VIC. Big for SA, but not in an Australian context.

Also for SES, I believe Adelaide Fire comcen is a 'Call Receipt & Dispatch' service only. Not Operations Support or Resourcing. That is one reason for the SES State & Regional Operations Centres manned by volunteers & paid staff. CFS have a different system, so I cannot comment from that perspective.

Again, how much $$ do you want to throw at this risk compared to frontline equipment ? Would the coroner prefer to see more telephones or frontline volunteers to reduce response times ?

A room of computers might not sound much until they need to be connected to the comms loop for fast dispatch systems (radio, paging), maintained, operators trained (a lot of training), updated, managed, GRN upgraded to cope with extra traffic, information storage upgraded, reporting systems upgraded, etc, etc.

Re your comment on a different state or country handling comms....what is the outsourced company to do with the call after they have taken the information

Dispatch the requested resource via SMS or email ??

It will be interesting to see what Victorian recommendations are for call receipt & dispatch when they are released.

chook · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2009, 06:08:09 PM »

No Jaff I don't support mediocrity - far from it! However as Bajdas said"there is a plan", it also seemed to work. And I would have thought not being tasked to MVA's in a timely matter, responding to task with untrained/poorly trained crews, responding with less than the minimum crew numbers, responding with inappropriate/out of date/damaged equipment was more likely see you in front of a coroner! And is OHS (Stop take five) trg being delivered to the troops, is OHS covered off on the teamleaders course yet? These are the thing that you will be hung on, as Andrew said when there was an emergency it was handled promptly.
There is always a bit of confusion at the start of an event (its part of the forming part of team building). And there is no need to rush about, afterall it still takes time to get things organised (as you know

)
So I just curious what the real agenda is here - more operators? more money? more embarrassment for the government/Safecom? Does anyone know has SA adopted the excellent NSW RFA system? I agree there is always room for improvement, but at least acknowledge that things have improved

cheers

rescue5271 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2009, 06:50:29 PM »

As someone has said Victoria have 3 regional call centre's,so should we also have one in a regional area???

Darren · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2009, 08:59:23 PM »

We do stuff all calls compared to Victoria and NSW. I don't think its worth it. Also the victorians run everything through VKN8/VICFIRE. Where as we are still back in the era of stations do comms after the truck books mobile.

crashndash · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2009, 09:01:13 PM »

i can't be bothered arguing about how good we were or werent yesterday....but seriously if you guys think yesterday was a great example of how a quality CRD system works....then great, sleep soundly tonight

Yesterday was piffling on the level of activity that could be expected on a major shitfight day in summer in the URI......and it fell over with calls going unanswered. Whatever the reasons...thats not acceptable, whatever system we have

As for whoever asked what any third party company could do with information.....migrate it real time to any quality CRD system....its just 1s and 0s....and this is the 21st century,

Heres a thought.......take Fire and Rescue (and Medical for that matter) CRD away from all of the Agencies and privatise it....at least that way someone is accountable

Author Topic: Are we kidding ourselves? (Read 28750 times)

Darren

rescue5271

Darren