Author Topic: NASTY NASTY  (Read 81678 times)

misterteddy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2009, 06:54:16 AM »
when you can see a nice big dark grey cloud of smoke billowing up in the middle of a highly populated area. Send any truck you get crew for and then release them ASAP which was pretty much the way things happened.

I have a little sympathy for the Incident Controller in this event, at least initially....

Report from the Bombers as they were airborne heading to the incident was, "smoke showing and building". Having been to an incident in that area 2 years ago. it's a pretty untidy area in terms of terrain, scrub and houses all mixed together. So asking to get a lot, wasnt too bad. What was interesting was to see some of the very average response times from some Brigades (considering the weather). The Helitacks were turned out early (considering they were at Mt Crawford) and the Aircrane from Brukunga was turned off early by the AAS. Considering its a 20 mins to get airborne option, it wouldn't have even engaged.  Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.

As for RCR resources, agree, bad management, but its compounded by a bad selection of vehicles used to stow RCR gear on in Lofty Group in general. Most of them are front running appliances to any job. Makes it difficult to "not" send them just to cover RCR.

Offline Zippy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2009, 07:07:30 AM »
Quote
Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.

in a way, they only manually turned themselves out to 'active standby'...UNTIL the MFS page came out.  Pretty much we shouldnt respond until somebody else pages your brigade.  So eg...MFS:  or   BRDG: ALDGATE RESPOND ASSIST BRIDGEWATER bla bla...before that, active standby can be initiated i think.

That strategy works well i believe, gets ya trucks out on the road within 1 minute of the page, rather than 6.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:09:01 AM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2009, 09:01:12 AM »
Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.

As for RCR resources, agree, bad management, but its compounded by a bad selection of vehicles used to stow RCR gear on in Lofty Group in general. Most of them are front running appliances to any job. Makes it difficult to "not" send them just to cover RCR.

In Burnsides defence, I don't think they hit the road until the GO requested them and their tanker. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a crew at the station and you hear that you have been requested, no use waiting for the page - especially when you have a looong drive up the hill ;)

Lofty Group's RCR stowage isn't really that bad compared to most groups. Of the three front running trucks with RCR gear on them, two have just Rapid Intervention gear and then you have the stand alone Rescue. When compared to somewhere like Heysen group with both rescue resources being on front running trucks after Barker had their stand alone Rescue stolen, its not as bad as it could be.
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Offline OMGWTF

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2009, 09:17:31 AM »
So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?

Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2009, 09:36:03 AM »
Do stirling and barker have a RIV set aswell as their standard RCR gear?
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2009, 09:39:07 AM »
Yes full RCR on rescue and RIV on pumper.

Offline 24pumper

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2009, 09:39:58 AM »
So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?



This is the other (cheaper) option. Using the above response for example, if Burnside are turning out to cover a lack of crew with Stirling, then they should be stopped as soon as Stirling is on the road and can confirm the have sufficient rescue operators.


Interesting point. have come across this scenario before (not in a rescue situation though) where my brigade have been sent as a default brigade, then when the inital brigade got mobile been given a stop. Interesting situation, do we then stop a resource that is now a closer rescource (after being on the road for 5 mins driving towards the incident) when there is yet no truck on scene at the job??

Offline Zippy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2009, 09:51:59 AM »
Keep the resource that will arrive soonist coming. more than likely it will be the default brigade,  Stop the Inital brigade.

Interesting to note, athelstone took 11mins to mobilise, thats defaultable at the 6 or 7 minute mark. ahwell...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 09:53:56 AM by Zippy »

Offline jaff

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2009, 10:03:27 AM »
Request for Stirling and Summertown backup came within 5 mins of initial page to job, by the sounds of it!
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2009, 10:10:02 AM »
I think brigades need to start being more self critical and aware that they are taking longer than 4 min and hence be more willing to self default.
 

Offline 6739264

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2009, 10:18:14 AM »
Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.

There is a need for multiple Resuce appliances when they carry differnt gear. As the job was on a steep hill, as Jaff pointed out, then it would be entirely appropriate for Stirling to be turned out for their Rope Rescue capabilities. You should well know that there is a huge difference when it comes to rescue stowage around the state. All Rescue brigades have the minimum, but above and beyond that, who knows?

Do stirling and barker have a RIV set aswell as their standard RCR gear?

Further to what bittenyakka has said, I don't think Mt. Barker do.

Interesting point. have come across this scenario before (not in a rescue situation though) where my brigade have been sent as a default brigade, then when the inital brigade got mobile been given a stop. Interesting situation, do we then stop a resource that is now a closer rescource (after being on the road for 5 mins driving towards the incident) when there is yet no truck on scene at the job??

I think the difference is having a brigade tagged as auto dual response incase there are crewing issues, compared to having a brigade default and then get on the road. Of course if you default, and then you can get mobile 2 minutes later, perhaps put a stop on the default brigade, but too often you see brigade defaulting and then turning out 15 minutes later...

Request for Stirling and Summertown backup came within 5 mins of initial page to job, by the sounds of it!

Its a pity that the pages didnt go out for another 20 minutes!

I think brigades need to start being more self critical and aware that they are taking longer than 4 min and hence be more willing to self default.

Yes. At the end of the day, we are providing a service to the community, that often requires a time critical response. If we can't do it then we need to pass it on fast to the next brigade. Ofcourse things are different outside of the MLR urban interface where you have 100 brigades per town.
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Offline Zippy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2009, 10:26:36 AM »
Barker would have a minimal rcr kit in there 34P i would believe.

Lobethal have a set on Rescue and can have a set on there 24P anytime...

Offline 6739264

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2009, 10:30:55 AM »
Barker would have a minimal rcr kit in there 34P i would believe.

Lobethal have a set on Rescue and can have a set on there 24P anytime...

They 'can' have a set? As for Barker, I recall seeing their combitool happily stowed on the pumper. Unless they have another one?
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Offline Zippy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2009, 10:40:43 AM »
yeah,  they had it on 24P for the Grand Prix thingy...  not sure if its a permanant feature.

Offline OMGWTF

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2009, 11:45:16 AM »
Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.

There is a need for multiple Resuce appliances when they carry differnt gear. As the job was on a steep hill, as Jaff pointed out, then it would be entirely appropriate for Stirling to be turned out for their Rope Rescue capabilities. You should well know that there is a huge difference when it comes to rescue stowage around the state. All Rescue brigades have the minimum, but above and beyond that, who knows?

Indeed, however looking beyond this specific circumstance, responding operators only is a feaseable way of reducing the amount of rescue vehicles being displaced.

If Stirling responded to this job as a rope rescue resource, then that is an entirely differant matter of course.

Offline Bagyassfirey

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2009, 12:06:49 PM »
hhmmm gotten bit of topic..

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2009, 09:26:47 PM »
Quote
Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.

in a way, they only manually turned themselves out to 'active standby'...UNTIL the MFS page came out.  Pretty much we shouldnt respond until somebody else pages your brigade.  So eg...MFS:  or   BRDG: ALDGATE RESPOND ASSIST BRIDGEWATER bla bla...before that, active standby can be initiated i think.

That strategy works well i believe, gets ya trucks out on the road within 1 minute of the page, rather than 6.

Can't speak for the Bridgewater job, but Burnside did not self respond to the Norton Summit one.  They were requested by the (Mt Lofty) GDO and initiated the response from there.
Lets not forget there are ways to respond a brigade to an incident that don't involve the pager, and sometimes the pager isn't the best option.

Also, just for interests sake, Google Maps tells us:

Burnside - Norton Summit: 11.9 km – about 17 mins
Stirling - Norton Summit: 12.1 km – about 19 mins
Athelstone  - Norton Summit: 14.2 km – about 21 mins

Offline Darcyq

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2009, 07:14:25 PM »
bahahahahaha 1 ha burnt...talk about a traffic jam. end of augment about over resourcing.  :lol:

Interesting article in this weeks Courier...


The Courier Opinion

Thursday, January 22, 2009
Timely fire warning
As far as fire seasons go, the Hills is at the pointy end of this one.
The temperatures are picking up, and so are the winds, and the
forecasters are predicting plenty of hot and gusty conditions in
coming weeks.
Water restrictions are biting household gardens and it's becoming
harder to find lush green shelter belts around homes.
Two fires this week showed how quickly a spark can catch hold in dry
vegetation and threaten homes.
One in Bridgewater was ignited by an angle grinder and burnt through
the front yards of two homes and jumped the road to burn sections of
the front yards of another three houses.
The other fire was the fault of a spark from a passing train that
raced through a well kept buffer belt of slashed grass to burn out
the backyard of one house and threaten several others.
In a matter of minutes a tiny flame erupted into something monstrous
and it took a hard and fast response from the CFS to stop it in its
tracks.

Notably it took carefully aimed loads of foam mixture from two water
bombers to take the sting out of the fires so volunteers could get
close enough to finish them off.
One neighbor told The Courier he was amazed when one drop effectively
put out half the fire and significantly reduced the radiant heat
beating down the street.
Water bombers are proving to be invaluable firefighting tools,
helping communities contain damage and save assets.
In steep terrain, as evident at the Bridgewater fire, aerial attacks
can mean the difference between a small incident and a big fire out
of the reach of ground crews.
But water bombers don't put out fires.
The Hills still rely on its CFS volunteers to manage the fire ground,
direct the bombers, put strategies in place and then hang around for
hours afterwards to black everything out and prevent flare-ups.

Fire is reported in the region most days now and every time their
pagers go off a group of people give up their time to keep the rest
of the community safe.
The least that community can do in return is to reduce the amount of
preventable fires happening, and be prepared themselves.
Don't use angle grinders, welders and cutting tools on total fire ban
days without a permit. It's illegal.
Think twice about mowing and slashing on high risk days, keep your
machinery in good condition and keep decent firefighting equipment
nearby if you have to use machinery and tools.
The Hills are tinder dry at the moment and it doesn't take much to
start a bushfire.
The Courier [Permanent link to this item] [Opinion home] [Courier home].

Don't know about you lot, but were in the business of protecting lives and saving property. Given the location of this fire their was a serious level of risk to exposures which included a number of homes and the edge of Engelbrook reserve that was directly opposite. Upgrading it early to a 2nd alarm was appropriate, then once a reassessment was made with the threat reduced, brigades were stood down quickly.

Given the fact that this is a public forum, it would be my advice to keep some of the "2nd guess type opinions to yourselves or pass any legitimate concerns up the official channels. This sort of banter does not do us any favours.


Offline Bagyassfirey

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2009, 07:38:01 PM »
well considering people howled downt he CFS for sending extra aircraft + the Sky Crane to Port Lincoln it was simply a example used.. Fire going well @ Port Lincoln Multible million dollar factories under threat and people say they didn need to throw all those resources at it...yet as soon as something happens in the Adelaide hills its all ok...Doesn matter where somethin starts every available resource should be sent..A job well doen by the guys n girls at Bridgewater  :-)

Offline Darius

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2009, 07:22:27 AM »
Given the fact that this is a public forum, it would be my advice to keep some of the "2nd guess type opinions to yourselves or pass any legitimate concerns up the official channels. This sort of banter does not do us any favours.

precisely (I wasn't going to bother saying anything but am glad you did). 

The only other thing I'd like to add is that the pager is only one way of being responded.  Do not criticise a brigade for "self responding" just because you didn't see a pager message sent to them.

Offline big bronto

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2009, 08:38:03 AM »
Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....

Also regarding the Bridgewater fire, yes it is in a bad area, yes smoke showing, and yes the 2ND alarm is a good call...But do not send your whole group and a strike team when you arrive on scene to find it to be so so small. A good officer should be able to upgrade and downgrade and make the call when on scene, a good officer will also not drain the whole group and smaller stations like your upper sturts for no reason.

Another thing to look at if over a few weeks these same brigades get dragged out for mop up duty on these massive fires of 2 acres and under then the day the big one does happen a lot of bosses will say sorry mate you've left 3 times this week for nothing i need you here, or families going not this time dad we were going out, it will take it's toll on people that don't have secure government jobs or have families at home  waiting. Not saying vollies won't go to jobs but if you don't need them send them home or don't respond them at all. It is only January and a long fire season ahead so don't burn them out.


Offline bittenyakka

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2009, 08:48:11 AM »
Well after being called to the Bridgewater fire, other than a couple of issues that are un related to this i believe it was run quite well. High risk fire on a bad day lots of trucks hit it fast and go home fast, i think i spent an entire hour and a half or so there. That has to be better than getting the local crews to need to arrange for a long mop up and dealing with a relatively risky fire.

Offline Zippy

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2009, 09:16:50 AM »
Quote
Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....

LOL...the amount of rescues they do...it is required.  More so when the Rescue gear goes in for servicing. etc.

So pretty much right now the situation is:

Entrapments job Brukunga                 > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker   > Stirling  Rescue

« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 09:24:24 AM by Zippy »

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2009, 09:59:01 AM »
So pretty much right now the situation is:

Entrapments job Brukunga                 > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker   > Stirling  Rescue

I think you'd find that's the situation even if they had the RIV Zippy.  As far as I know, RIV is not counted as a rescue resource, so a full rescue stowage would be responded anyway.

Offline Alex

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Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2009, 10:03:23 AM »
So pretty much right now the situation is:

Entrapments job Brukunga                 > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker   > Stirling  Rescue

I think you'd find that's the situation even if they had the RIV Zippy.  As far as I know, RIV is not counted as a rescue resource, so a full rescue stowage would be responded anyway.

Per the book, 100% correct.

 

anything