Fire Tactics

[Firefrog]

This site is an excellent reference for compartment fire behaviour and fire fighting tactics.
http://www.firetactics.com/

Check out the video at this page for a lesson in what not to do at a structure job.
http://www.firetactics.com/service.htm

Enjoy!

[CFS_Firey]

http://www.atemschutz.org/ is also a good source of Backdraft videos.... Go to the "Flash Over" part...

Note: its better if you can speak German :wink:

[strikeathird]

After recently completing this course, i have to say.....


WHAT AN EYE OPENER!!!


And to think, that before this, i thought I knew a "little" about what may/does go on ...............  W R O N G!!

Honestly, to all those that have not participated in this course, and may one day have the opportunity... JUMP AT IT!!!

It was the most educational, hands on, and a just total "WOW FACTOR" of a course, i have ever done........

You will learn ALOT!

[CyberCitizen]

http://www.atemschutz.org/ is also a good source of Backdraft videos.... Go to the "Flash Over" part...

Note: its better if you can speak German :wink:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eatemschutz%2Eorg%2F

This is the English Translation.

I love the animations.

Backdraft
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/backdraft.swf

Fat Flash Over
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/fetterfo.swf

Lean Flash Over
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/magererfo.swf

Reverse Flash Over
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/umgekehrterfo.swf

Shifted Flash Over
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/verlagerterfo.swf

Retarded Flash Over
http://www.atemschutz.org/flashover/animationen/flash/verzoegerterfo.swf

[strikeathird]

Love the Signature  ^^^ :D

[CyberCitizen]

Love the Signature  ^^^ :D

Thanks, Its A Little Big For The Dialup Customers, Sorry About That.

[strikeathird]

Well, after attending a Fully envolved house fire yesterday, I can honestly say, Compartment Fire Behaviour training has taught me heaps!!!!!

I have said it before, and will say it again...  If you get the chance,  JUMP AT IT!!

[oz fire]

Any details you would like to share?

What was the job?
Did you use CFB techniques at the incident?
Was the house intact or venting at the time?
Offensive or defensive fire fighting?
Pre or post flashover????
First arriving crew or back up??

[strikeathird]

Won't go into many details, don't know if findings have been made, or anything like that.  But yes, CFB techniques were used, and to much effect.

That is all that will be said until further notice. 

Cheers.

[oz fire]

Glad to hear that you were able to use the CFB training - it is an incredible feeling to be able to enter an involved structure and use it once you have the training and then being able to later reflect on the difference it made compared with the tactics we once used.

Wasn't after too many details, just thought it a good opportunity for you to share the practical application of what you have Lent with those who haven't undertaken the training - we need to reinforce to people how important this training is for every BA operator

PS - Fire Cause have their findings and are writing their report :-)

[Good times]

Well its interesting what you did before doing CFB training and what you do now, its scary!!

[JamesGar]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has come across and information or studies comparing CAFS and Compartment Fire Behaviour Techniques? I've looked through the Fire Tactics page and found nothing really descript about CAFS. If any of you have had experiences with both please let me know!

Cheers

[Good times]

That would be interesting, you would think that the foam might stuff up the water but then again it might help, not sure, might be an interesting excersize to get Blackwood CAFS to be the pump for a compatment course and see what it does.

[JamesGar]

After reading through a few articles I have found that a NZ university has done quite an extensive trial comparing CAFS, Class A foam and Water in controlled structural burns for a study and the findings were reasonable non conclusive. In saying that it was noted that CAFS offered better cooling in most situations, which I found interesting as I thought CAFS would extinguish, but not offer that water run off which I think would cool better.

I would like to see some trials done with this technology as there are a few CAFS unit popping up now, most are for rural appliance (Beliar 14, Bradbury 14 and Morph Vale 14), but the Blackwood set might prove its worth with a trial. The concern I have is that CAFS is more efficient with a Smooth Bore Nozzle offering a jet/stream of CAFS, but powercone and fan pattern offer somewhat better firefighter protection.

[Good times]

Interesting, straight bore nozzles are a worry, I have heard that some American departments have gone back to pure straight bore, as they don't understand, or want to understand, compartment fire.

[Firefrog]

Firstly I don't have any experience with CAFS - SO with that disclaimer:

Compartment techniques as taught at Brukunga are the best the world has found so far (to my knowledge) for reducing the heat in a compartment, increasing survivabilty, using very little water & reducing water damage to almost nil with a good operator & making the environment safer for fire attack and search teams.

I'm sure CAFS has it's virtues but I can't imagine how a smooth bore could help inside a compartment and it feels at odds with the priciniples of CFB training. Willing to be proved wrong though. (Remember no idea about CAFS) :-D

I have made a few aggresvie internal attacks using CFB techniques and received comments from fire cause on how little damage was done by the attack. The fire was out but nothing was wet - evidence remained intact.

If you have a chance do a CFB course it is the most eye opening course you will do as a fire fighter.

[oz fire]

There is a distinct difference - CAFS will cool the surface that it touches and adheres to and then smother - it won't however cool the 'area' (compartment, room etc) that it is applied to.

CFB techniques thought do - with the water expansion rate of 1:1600 this assists in raising the neutral plane, condensing the smoke gasses and hence drawing the heat up - the fine particles of water, delivered when CFB techniques are applied properly also have a quenching effect on both the heat and fire, further reducing the push of the fire.

One major concern (at least for me) if using solely CAFS in aggressive, offensive fire fighting, should a fire crew  be caught in a flash over, CAFS would be of little use, as there is no way to apply a fog pattern to allow for immediate fire fighter refuge and retreat behind the fog curtain.

As for fire cause - the issue with CAFS is the lingering foam, it makes it difficult to clear a fire scene and to examine the seat of the fire the foam needs to break down or be removed. CFB certainly does make fire scene investigation easier - less damage by water, less disruption by water and the seat/area is usually intact - due to penciling and painting as opposed to drenching.

The US is looking at a number of structural techniques/tactics - some areas over there are removing CAFS due to perceived problems/OH&S, others won't use CFB due to OH&S concerns - but remember they also vent through the roof, love "battling the beast" head on and do have more firies die on the job than any other continent. There are many web sites with pros and cons for both - although I did read somewhere the UK Home Office were continuing their studies into both! 8-)

[JamesGar]

If you can list some of those web sites I'd like to have a read,

Thanks Oz

[strikeathird]

I personally don't think the foam would be good at all.  After all, Gas Cooling, is about vaporising fine droplets of water, to cool pyrolosis gasses, thus stopping them from reaching there "ideal Mixture" and possibly causing a Flash Over.  Foam, as stated some where above, would stick to a surface, it would not vaporise or atomise therefore not cooling the gasses in the atmosphere, and it would cause a lot more water and foam related damage.  -  Not to mention , foam eats nearly all it comes in contact with.... 

I think some people have the wrong impression about compartment, yes, it is an extremely VITAL tool in combatting fire, but, if used incorrectly (or if the operator using the technique does it wrongle), it can cause alot more troubles.

[Mike]

Have finally gotten onto a CFB course  :-D :-D :-D 8-)

[Firefrog]

You will love it!
One of the best courses you will ever do!

[strikeathird]

Have finally gotten onto a CFB course  :-D :-D :-D 8-)

Just drink plenty of water, each all the food u want!  As perfect course to work it all off!!

Its great fun, you will learn a lot!

Don't get burnt  :-P  (It's DAYUM hot!)

[Mike]

Definate a course well worth attending..... Lots of techniques to take back to the brigade.

[Firefrog]

Mike - tell us more about the course.

What did you get out of it?? Likes, dislikes, new ideas??

[Mike]

Well, as i mentioned previously, id been trying to get onto the course for quite a long time. Which gave me the opportunity to do a fair bit of research on the subject before hand.

Like anything though, there is always a difference between reading about it and doing it! To be able to put the theory's of gas cooling, pencilling and painting into practice, and see the physical effect it has on the fire far outways anything else.

Likes:
the food (as always).
The fact that 90% of the course is practically based
Different gear to "play" with
lots of visual examples, of different principles
The integration with MFS instructors

Dislikes:
Brukunga weather
I enjoyed the time off after tea, but really would have liked to be doing something. They have their reasons for doing this though. Allows time to complete the assessment questions
Would liked to have had some live fire training for tactical door entry. They are also looking at this.
Some of the explanations were probably a little to rushed, which made the concepts easy to confuse.

Ideas:
developing scenarios for demonstration. IE. the dolls house. No reason why people should have to wait for the course to learn about these things.... really good to get some enthusiasm back into training as well - something new to learn.

I placed most of those comments on the course evaluation sheet, bearing in mind that they had mentioned they were looking into some of it already.