Fire Tactics

[strikeathird]

Would liked to have had some live fire training for tactical door entry. They are also looking at this.

As CFB Training is only a part course of "Suppress Urban Fire", there is no door entry techniques involved.  The full SUF course (Which I believe Brett Pollini is looking into getting started)  will go into CFB, Door entry, and tactics in alot further detail.

Glad you enjoyed the course, welcome to the boat of people that have seen fire behavior at a different level, and will be greatly frustrated trying to explain it to brigade members that havent done the course, who think they have seen it all.... :-P      :-D

[CFS_Firey]

Ideas:
developing scenarios for demonstration. IE. the dolls house. No reason why people should have to wait for the course to learn about these things....

I did the Dolls house "demonstration" in my level3 course... is it normally not done then?

[TillerMan]

I have made a few dolls houses to use at our brigade, they are quite simple. apart from that its good to train on the branch and advancing techniques as often as possible ( is alot harder in pbi i have noticed).

[corocfs]

we havean MFS officer who is a compartment fire trainer, and has shown us the dolls house, including the effect of having "furniture" (a piece of foam representing a foam cushion couch) in the opposite corner of the house.. it is amazing to watch the gases being realesed by the foam while the room heats up and then see it suddenyl burst into flames, even though the actual flames are still on the other side of the room...

have also "played" with the concept of backdrafts/flashovers on a very small scale in my backyard.... :-P quite astounding results.. but i wouldnt recommend trying it in built up areas as it puts off quite a bit of smoke when you extinguish the box completely,and im sure the council wouldnt be too impressed where clean air acts apply...

[Mike]

I did my L3 a looonnnnngggggg time ago. The dolls house may be included now but i dont *think* it is....

[strikeathird]

I did my L3 in 2003, and it was not part of it then, however it was part of my CFB course.

[oz fire]

Tillerman I'm guessing if your doing dolls houses at your brigade that your an instructor in CFBT and can therefore share accurate and meaningful knowledge with your brigade.

As for fire truck doing it in the back yard - YOU'VE"E GOT TO BE JOKING are you really serious! I guess thats like seeing a hazmat demo or video and then mixing a list of chemicals together 'on a small scale' and then cleaning it up 'on a small scale'!!!!


Ladies and Gentlemen - Lets remember instructors in these very specific skills have undergone allot of instruction prior to them delivering these skills - the best we can do is appreciate that not try to emulate that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strikeathird]

The backyard bit, probably a bit dangerous.  But I can't see how "Replicating" or showing a dolls house demonstration at brigade level, while giving the same information you recieved, is a problem.  And hardly think you should have to be a credited CFBT instructor to do it.  Share what information you can with others!


I would assume tillerman, or any one else that has done it, has used the correct safety equipment...  It can't go much worse than the one demonstrated to me by INSTRUCTORS at my CFBT course.....   :-P   :-P

(No Oz, you weren't instructing on my course  :wink:  )

[TillerMan]

This is only ever done to refresh members memory's who have already done the course, it's no worse than some fundraising bbq's our members have done.

[corocfs]

Tillerman I'm guessing if your doing dolls houses at your brigade that your an instructor in CFBT and can therefore share accurate and meaningful knowledge with your brigade.

As for fire truck doing it in the back yard - YOU'VE"E GOT TO BE JOKING are you really serious! I guess thats like seeing a hazmat demo or video and then mixing a list of chemicals together 'on a small scale' and then cleaning it up 'on a small scale'!!!!


Ladies and Gentlemen - Lets remember instructors in these very specific skills have undergone allot of instruction prior to them delivering these skills - the best we can do is appreciate that not try to emulate that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i wouldnmt call it even slightly dangerous mate, im talking about using a box that is about 15cm wide and 30cm long by only about 20cm high, done in the middle of the lawn, wearing gloves, long sleeves and having a hose nearby..
i wouldnt do it in the middle of fire season, but its just a bit of harmless fun,

[kat]

Mmmm.

We were expressly forbidden to ever even contemplate running the demonstration by STC staff on my compartment course (which was the first one run, as a trial, as part of the BA Instructors Course).

Mmmmm.

[Firefrog]

I know it may seem reasonable to do the dolls house at brigade level or elsewhere but it really isn't ok.

An overwhelming issue is the lack of supporting information and detailed practical instruction. What can happen is the techniques are discussed at the brigade and then could be implemented without proper training. Implementing CFB techniques without the benefit of a full 1.05 course which includes time in the CFB training environment could be very dangerous.

If you have not done the course you cannot appreciate the very real risks of incorrect techniques.

Another risk is that you can create quite dramatic simulations with the dolls house, you could be injured if you do the wrong thing.

[oz fire]

I guess having witnessed one dolls house, that would equate to the 10+ that instructors have to demonstrate and the 60+ hours of theory they need to go through before they deliver theirs! IM IMPRESSED!!!!

As for passing on knowledge, photographic and verbatim memories are sensational - I must get me one of those too!!!!!

Ignorance is Bliss, However a little knowledge is dangerous!!


Finally Kat - your right. The CFS stance is that only CFBT conduct training in CFB, dolls houses and alike!

[CFS_Firey]

The purpose of the Dolls house demonstration I saw, was to show flashover and backdraft, not to teach how to combat the fires. In my opinion, this is potentially life saving knowledge, notlife threatening...
I think as long as its done by a BATO (as was ours) or someone who 'knows what they are doing', then it should be safe...

[Firefrog]

If I show you once what a flashover looks like by showing you a dolls house simulation. Do you think you are now prepared to recognise the signs, read the fire and apply correct decision making and then apply correct tactics to combat the fire???

Why do you think the most senior instructors in CFB in the world regard this practice dangerous.

They are not trying to keep the knowledge to themselves or have a little club where only the special few can apply these techniques. They are trying to protect the overly enthusiastic firefighter from becoming a statistic.

Do not apply CFB techniques without proper training. Until you do the course you aren't capable of appreciating the risks.

[strikeathird]

Hold the heck up everyone, before you all jump on your bandwagon about the brigade level issue, read what was said.  (note, this is not about the backyard demo).


A member stated, the dolls house was "RE-demonstrated", to, and only with people that have done the course.  SO.... These people know, and have learnt about the signs, learnt the theory that they were taught, and have already seen the demonstration by an "Instructor".  I think some people need a reality check.  You may know some things, you are not god, if members "Trained" in CFBT want to "re-demonstrate" the dolls house, which they were shown by instructors, good on them.  Nothing like refreshing memories and training.

I would react differently if the comment was made, about showing non CFBT trained members the dolls house.  but we are talking about members already trained in these tactics, who are just "refreshing" there memories.

Fair enough, you may spend 60 something hours in theory, and how ever many in "Training", to become an instructor,  but I, along with other CFBT members, have spent a number of hours in House fires, using these skills....And gained a certain "understanding" or knowledge so to speak, that no number of hours training can give you.   I think good on those CFBT members re-freshing their memories by doing the dolls house prac.


End rant.


*Please note, I fully respect the time instructors spend not only in training, but in teaching, I merely also want to point out that on the job exp. also means alot.   To all the instructors, thankyou on a job, continually, well done.*
*Note 2, I agree with the comment, that if the demonstration was done with NON trained CFBT members, it would indeed be dangerous.*

[Firefrog]

Valid points strikeathird -

To clarify I am not at all against sharing of lifesaving knowledge. I am concerned that this happens -

I did the Dolls house "demonstration" in my level3 course... is it normally not done then?

Some people get a glimpse of an idea and then assume they now have the skill. That is the thing to be worried about.

It is a wonderful thing for CFB trained people to continue practicing their techniques.

[Mike]

I think Im going to contradict myself a bit.... consider it thinking out loud.

OK.....

Lots of talk about the dolls house. I agree not something that should be shown on a course other than CFB. But Im not sure if I would go as far as to say people shouldnt be taught to read the signs at brigade level.

After all... I was taught how to do gas attack before my L3. How to recognise what the bullet was doing, the foot work etc. It ment I had a lot more confidence going into that course, and let us put a lot more effort into the physical practice.

Now, the question. Because I show someone the signs to look for at a structure fire, does that mean they think they can fight them with CFB techniques? I dont believe that would be the case.

This is dependant of course on how well you know your crew. Those of us that have been around for a while, have probably learnt how the crews react to new information. No doubt there are some out there that would try to attenpt that which they dont know. Ive watched our crew evolve over my time, and am confident they would take the demonstration for its intended purpose.

Next... Personally when attending a structure fire, what i would ask people to do, would be in reference to their skill level and relevant training.... example: you wouldnt ask a non BA op to don at a house fire..... Or a RCR trained person who doesnt like fatalities (I know no-one does, but couldnt think of a better way to word it) to cut the deceased out... However people are known not to do what is asked of them.

People using CFBT before being officially trained and educated.... at training maybe. How many of you put BA on before you did the course? I know I did.... CFBT isnt using any specialised equipment though, so what does stop them from using it? common sense? potentially a scary thought...


After all of that....... As I said, just some thoughts running through my head as I read everyones various comments....

[TillerMan]

Some very good points there mike.

I remember when i first joined we used to have a shed at our old station that we would use for training. Before smoke machines were affordable we used to use an old washing machine barrel full of oil soaked sandbags smouldering to create smoke in the shed. I know now how dangerous this was but at the time we all just thought it was harmless smoke but in theory the shed could have flashed at any time due to the rich amount of unburnt gases. And of course this was in the days of overall's and turn out coats and top guard helmet's

I would rather someone show people the doll's house on a small scale than use a shed as a really big doll's house and actually go in to it as we used to do.

[Firefrog]

I think you are right!! :-D

Maybe a compromise is to allow people to gain an appreciation of the risks and understand what these fire phenomenon are. I guess if they are being shown by CFBTO and are cautioned on the risks then it's not so bad.

Mike - You are correct when you say know the crew, for the most part our crews are smart and use common sense. I think I was generalising due to the backyard dolls house comments.

[oz fire]

Fair enough - re familiarisation, reconfirmation, reinforcement of knowledge - sound idea - maybe there needs to be a competency life span then on CFBT???

I wasn't having a go at any individual, but rather the system, the dolls house is not a toy, and to refresh on techniques, what to watch for and alike, maybe CFS needs to produce and distribute a video, for all to see and refresh.

My concern is that allot of material is covered when a dolls house is demonstrated and we all know the retention in adults when attending training as about 10% (actual stat!!!).

Strikeathird - your right the best reinforcement is actual incidents, the attendance at many have enable me to refine my techniques but also demonstrate how useful the technique can be - in both volunteer and paid services, in both city and country locations.

If we are to train, then lets do it properly, competently and ensure that weather it be initial training or refresher training we do it safely and pass on the 'actual and correct knowledge' not our interpretations :-D

[CFS_Firey]

I should also clarify about the Dolls house demonstration on my level 3 course... This was a demonstration by an instructor, we only watched, so I can be sure none of the people on my course would think they know CFB techniques...
What a better way to explain Flashover than to show it? A demonstration like this can be compared to untrained people watching a Video that shows CFB techniques...

Having said that though, I agree that untrained personnel should not be combating the Dolls House, or having the impression that they know CFB techniques...

[strikeathird]

Any one know if we are ever going to be able to do more of the Supress Urban Fire modules...?  (CFBT is part of SUF)

Would be nice to do some further training..