Domestic and Industrial Rescue

[6739264]

I have just one quick question, and yes I am being serious which is something new for me when the SES is involved.

Are SES units trained in Domestic and Industrial rescue such as finger/limb entrapments? If so, are ALL units trained in it as part of the basic general land rescue package, or is it a more specialised course?

If the SES aren't trained, who has responsibility for that kind of rescue? CFS RCR Brigades certainly don't have the abilites...

[Alan (Big Al)]

Do you mean to tell me if someone has their finger trapped i can't use the RCR gear??

Spewin.... :x :-D

[misterteddy]

Numbers....the answer (I think) is that nobody is, certainly CFS and MFS arent. Like kitten rescues from a wall cavity, we teach people how to use tools, and then we respond with some measure of hope when we get a scenario that doesnt fit nicely into the "normal" range of incidents. This is one of the reasons that working to rules (instead of guidelines) doesn't work.

[6739264]

Numbers....the answer (I think) is that nobody is, certainly CFS and MFS arent. Like kitten rescues from a wall cavity, we teach people how to use tools, and then we respond with some measure of hope when we get a scenario that doesnt fit nicely into the "normal" range of incidents. This is one of the reasons that working to rules (instead of guidelines) doesn't work.

Good. I suspected as much. Glad to see that we're still relying on throwing a response together and seeing how it goes.

[Zippy]

How many brigades have the simple "Ring cutters" ...lol

[Mike]

Numbers....the answer (I think) is that nobody is, certainly CFS and MFS arent. Like kitten rescues from a wall cavity, we teach people how to use tools, and then we respond with some measure of hope when we get a scenario that doesnt fit nicely into the "normal" range of incidents. This is one of the reasons that working to rules (instead of guidelines) doesn't work.

As far as im aware it is likewise for the ses, however some units do have small movement equipment (the old enerpak gear).

Your general assumption would be right on the money numbers.

[chook]

Excellent question Numbers, answer is no! For several reasons 1)Industrial machinery is harder to get hold of, 2) the entrapment in machinery scenario's that I have been involved in (in my other capacity) involves dismantling the machine involved or spreading/ lifting which the Enerpac/Powerteam hand hydraulics are excellent for this type of task(and all RCR units must have & all other rescue units should have). We have used the "lift forklift off worker scenario for advanced tools courses we have run in the past.
As for entrapment hand tools, gentle/ very gentle spreading & site fitters are the go (all rescue units should have air bags as well! pity they don't).
Finally if stainless steel is involved not sure hydraulic cutters would do the job well - so best avoided!
cheers

[6739264]

Excellent question Numbers, answer is no!

It has been an ongoing thought of mine, that CFS is certainly not equipped to deal with any type of rescue other than RCR/vertical, and it seems, in general terms, neither is SES. This worries me, yet I doubt that we will see any change as people are already complaining that they have too many things that they are trained in, and god forbid we get into domestic/industrial rescue.

Ah well, back to crossing our fingers, making do and hoping for the best :)

[OldOne]

Ah well, back to crossing our fingers, making do and hoping for the best :)
[/quote]

Well hoping is not the answer,  training is preparation.

The Metro SES units all have trucks that are basically mobile workshops with a large collection of hand tools and both battery and power tools to handle most domestic emergencies as they also carry timber, acro props and sundry other repair items as standard.

All members who havd completed the Advanced SES Tools courses are proficient in the use and the limitations of all power tools that the truck carries and train regularly in the use of the equipment.

You can not plan totally for any incident as each incident is different from the last as each task needs its own assessment BUT you know what is available from your truck to assist with the task as it's a almost complete workshop including self contained generator for the power tools.  Some trucks even carry air compressors for specialised air tools.

For industrial site incidents there is normally on site access to heavy lifting equipment etc and personnel with specialised skills to assist with the emergency, plus you have MFS, SES and SAAS all working as one big team each with their own skills base to support the challenge.   How can you prepare yourself for a full arm stuck in a meat grinder?

Cheers,

Oldone

[misterteddy]

Excellent question Numbers, answer is no!

It has been an ongoing thought of mine, that CFS is certainly not equipped to deal with any type of rescue other than RCR/vertical, and it seems, in general terms, neither is SES. This worries me, yet I doubt that we will see any change as people are already complaining that they have too many things that they are trained in, and god forbid we get into domestic/industrial rescue.

Ah well, back to crossing our fingers, making do and hoping for the best :)

well...wouldnt make that assumption too much Numbers. There are brigades out there with High and Low Pressure Air Bags, Battery Operated tools and the like.... so just cos CFS don't run courses in it...doesnt mean we dont have the capacity to attend to it. For most industrial accidents I have seen and read of, no training would suffice beyond a good working knowledge of your tools, and the capacity to think logically and consult with ambos and the people on site (who know how to pull machinery apart quicker than we do).

As for waiting for the SES mobile workshops....puuulease. Before USAR was the non de plume for anything involving tools.....there was this thing called RESCUE....and everyone trained in it. Just cos i need a battery operated saw doesnt mean its suddenly a CAT 2 USAR Response. Likewise putting a piece of wood under a broken bit of verandah (the most common call for help for our multi million $$ USAR resources). By all means have the tunnel rats crawl through broken multi storey buildings, am very happy to call that a specialty in structural collapse and leave it to the experts....but simple (or even complex) removing of bits that don't belong there....thats just Rescue.

BTW....what do we call a single story farmhouse that has a verandah fall down cos son has driven the ute into the support on his return from the pub??... cos surely it isnt Urban?....OMG....a new course....CSAR  :-D

[misterteddy]

How can you prepare yourself for a full arm stuck in a meat grinder?

don't eat beforehand.....and bring the bbq sauce

[chook]

Not sure why you mentioned USAR Misterteddy, SES Rescue trucks have always been "mobile workshops" long before USAR was the flavour of the month!
True the equipment may have improved but there was always gear there & teams trained in rescue (if you knew anything about SES/Civil defence history you would have known that).
Arno's answer was quite correct (Hi Arno how is it going?) & he is right you can't plan for every incident - ever planned on how you can get someones leg out from under 3 tonne of concrete? Or a woman's arm out of a filling machine? or industrial rollers? or conveyor belt? No? I didn't think so so thats why you learn what the equipment you have can do, what it can't & rely on the people on the site for expert guidance on the machines involved, discuss the task with the emergency services that are there develop a plan and do the task.
I'm no longer in a Rescue Squad (sorry NSW term), however being an SES unit even we have to do General rescue which covers off all of the modules required to do the above tasks - just don't have all of the equipment!
This is not a insurmountable problem, if you keep a calm head, have a good team, and train with all of the tools you have (not just pop a door, remove a roof)
Anyway have said enough cheers

[jaff]

So Chook the SES thing im assuming is have a hardware store style appliance, reciprocating saws, tinsnips, boltcutters, chainsaws and the like, keeping calm and in consultation with the specialists and other responders on site winging it! :-).
Something all training manuals should have in them somwwhere "if after consultation with other agency responders no learnt method fits the problem, keep calm and wing it"
Part two of that training manual SOP would go in to "in case of job going pear shape, have a pre-determined fall guy, preferably not from your own agency" :evil:

[6739264]

Well hoping is not the answer,  training is preparation.

The Metro SES units all have trucks that are basically mobile workshops with a large collection of hand tools and both battery and power tools to handle most domestic emergencies as they also carry timber, acro props and sundry other repair items as standard.

All members who havd completed the Advanced SES Tools courses are proficient in the use and the limitations of all power tools that the truck carries and train regularly in the use of the equipment.

You can not plan totally for any incident as each incident is different from the last as each task needs its own assessment BUT you know what is available from your truck to assist with the task as it's a almost complete workshop including self contained generator for the power tools.  Some trucks even carry air compressors for specialised air tools.

For industrial site incidents there is normally on site access to heavy lifting equipment etc and personnel with specialised skills to assist with the emergency, plus you have MFS, SES and SAAS all working as one big team each with their own skills base to support the challenge.   How can you prepare yourself for a full arm stuck in a meat grinder?

I'm glad to hear the comments regarding the SES mobile workshops, this is sort of what I was looking for. My comments regarding CFS Brigades and having a lack of capability comes down to the listed standards for Rescue Equipment and what details are recorded of the specialist gear. I know of CFS Brigades that have the acro props, the air tools, the airbags etc etc, but then there are those that only have the "Standard Issue" single locker of rescue gear, yet there is nothing to differentiate between the two. They are both "Rescue".

As for training and preparation, its more than possible to train for your more common rescues such as your Meat Grinder entrapment, finger entrapment and impalements. You may not be running a full scenario, but you can train on the major parts. For example, you can get a thick length of steel pipe to double as a Mincer Barrel, and use this for practice in making the cuts along its length to remove it. There are basic steps to follow, every time.

Chook and Arno, I wholeheartedly agree with your team work comments, not to mention the fact you should know the ins and outs of your tools. This discussion has confirmed some of my fears, regarding some areas of the state being covered for RCR, but not for other forms of rescue, along with the gaping hole in defining the Rescue capabilites of different brigade/units.

Once again, bring back the old clasification of Heavy Rescue, or atleast differentiate between "Rescue" appliances and "RCR" appliances.

[bajdas]

What do MFS do ? Serious question, because personally I do not know.

They would be the first responders in the metro area to industrial rescue with SES backup ?

[OldOne]

Once again, bring back the old clasification of Heavy Rescue, or atleast differentiate between "Rescue" appliances and "RCR" appliances.
[/quote]


A lot of people have lost or confused the difference between General Rescue, be it domestic or Industrial and Urban Search and Rescue and then also RCR.  Each have their own specialised equipment and training.

General Rescue is all the standard Metro Type tasks including a single person trapped/injured or car taking out a wall or veranda posts  to a roof blown off or a tree through a roof etc.

Then you have USAR where you look at mass casualties with a collapsed building due to maybe earthquake or explosions etc.  These highly trained rescuers use items like heat cameras, remote night vision cameras. SCBA and specialised tunnelling equipment, there are currently a handful of SES volunteers and a larger number of paid members from SES, MFS and SAAS who are qualified to the international standards for USAR Cat2 and able to respond anywhere at very short notice 24/7.

Then you have the specialised members who do the RCR training and their unique equipment.

All metro SES units have trained members covering general rescue, advanced tools (use) and Storm damage operations with a large number also trained for USAR cat 1 (building collapse- surface search & rescue)  and of course our country members also cover RCR accredited courses but normally drop of USAR cat1 course.

Re metro response,  any structural or trapped person P1 or P2 taskings the SES and MFS are dual responded as we assist each other with manpower and equipment.

Arno.

[6739264]

A lot of people have lost or confused the difference between General Rescue, be it domestic or Industrial and Urban Search and Rescue and then also RCR.  Each have their own specialised equipment and training.

For sure. I don't know how people manage to, as they are all very obviously different fields. Atleast as far as CFS goes, there are Brigades that have similar, if not more 'General Rescue' equipment than some SES units, compared to others that have the RCR basics. Hence the suggestion for a classification, either state-wide or at the very least within the service.

EG:

USAR = USAR

Heavy Rescue = RCR and General as a min, may include Vertical/Confined space, if so that is noted in BOMS/SACAD to enhance incident response.

Rescue = RCR min, and perhaps some other gear.

Light Rescue = SES General rescue truck. Eg: No Hydraulics.

I know that it doesnt translate very well to SES and that the entire Rescue classification system is screwed, but I believe that something needs to change, otherwise any non RCR rescue job could well turn into a filtered real fast.

A question on not-so urban response, as far as the SES and MFS would turnout together, would this still hold true where the incident falls within a CFS '(RCR) Rescue' area, with the CFS and SES being turned out?

[chook]

scheiße Jaff you have seen a hole in my plan :-D
Totally agree Numbers - the term "Rescue" is very broad indeed, which is something I have been saying all along!
Differing standards, different ideas & training & equipment - people assume just because you are RCR then you are heavy rescue, if only that were true! In the Premier state where ambulance is also rescue in some areas, they wouldn't even meet the standard here for RCR response (just like some of our MFS retained friends very light weight equipment). I totally agree the whole rescue side of ESO's needs to be looked at by a proper board where every unit/brigade/station is assessed every 2 years - equipment, training, operations & responses. It needs to be free from passion, one eyeness etc.
One form of industrial rescue which would challange any service is trench rescue - honestly does anyone have access to conduct this operation in a safe manner? I doubt it!
In other cases though I still believe that a response comprising of fire & SES could cover most situations - yeah they would be winging it :wink:
And yep on occasions we have conducted training cutting shafts tubes etc, just to show what the tools can do!
cheers have a safe one