house fire

[pumprescue]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

[Zippy]

LOL Riiiight ...thats all that covered then...

Cheers mate
Rainer

Rainer, i bet i know who you initially thought numbers was, i thought too, that guy stuck in the land of the mardi gra's lol but he isnt...

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !!  angry

cant remember where it says this, cos it doesnt relate to my brigade at all or at least "rarely"....1 24P/34P/Pumper appliance response when responding into MFS area, unless specifically asked over Alerts, Phone or Pager (I.E Grassy in MFS area..obviously a 34)

Primarily, you should definitely keep 1 appliance at your own station 90% of the time for that out of the blue 2nd or 3rd heavy response incident.

[Darius]

The topic is about who got called - it's relevant to discuss who didn't. So long as it's not whining. A mature discussion is welcome.

On the topic of Salisbury CFS not getting a run...Did the chiefs not sign off on an agreement that said closest most appropriate resource?

Have the chiefs actually signed off on the "closest & most appropriate?"

Last I heard of it, (about 6 weeks ago) it had still not been signed, and discussions were (still) continuing.... has it been signed since then?

Pip

it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect.  I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades.  But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.

[chook]

I think it's the way the "system" is set up - before I left we had numerous jobs that were given to other units based on what is in the system - not on who was the closest appropriate resource. Care factor - not much at least some one went.
On the driving past brigades - again it's the closest appropriate resource - not closest resource!
The comment on taking ages cuts both ways - had to wait up to 1/2 an hour for any fire resource to turn up for jobs this had occured more than once and several times they had to drive past the closest appropriate resource (who were not called), go figure!
Finally there was a job here recently (last week) where the occupants of a car had to wait TEN hours for a response by emergency services! The problem wasn't the system, lack of crews, equipment etc - they were not noticed.
So guys & girls it's not a perfect world, you will always get hick ups - so stop bitching & work towards improving your part of the organisation. After all no ones perfect are they? cheers

[misterteddy]

it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect.  I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades.  But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.

not quite....agreed in principle is I believe the term used....lots of sticking points from all services that still need to be addressed (or the perspective of that particular Service representative re-aligned by his his Chief...lol).

So signed off for implementation, still a ways off

[Zippy]

On the driving past brigades - again it's the closest appropriate resource - not closest resource!

In the case of most CFS brigades that are "being driven past"...they have a chainsaw or two with PPE on there appliances. Hence the CFS brigade is the closest and most appropriate first responder.

[car31]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.

[chook]

Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource! Not all brigades are equipped or trained for storm damage ops (even cutting up a fallen tree on a road).
Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.
It's the same argument as used in RCR the Green book gives the minimum standard for all, but it's not enforced by all.
And some of you are of the opinion that Storm damge ops is a council job anyway!
As a side issue there is a big debate here about inappropriate response by RFS in one of the local council areas.Basically the local mayor of a town not far from here is in the media saying that the RFS calls all incidents (major) & over responds appliances. The incident mentioned involves a local farmer doing a controlled burn off is rough country, next thing he knows the RFS is there full noise, multiple appliances & crew & somehow a national media organisation gets hold of the story saying " a large bush fire is threatening such & such town".
RFS is investigating, the reason I mention this is a) only got one side of the story - which looks bad fro RFS, b) funding comes from the council - maybe the council is not happy paying out so much money (hidden agenda?), c) that SA is not on it's own with issues like over/under response!
Anyway I'm sure once SACAD is introduced the problems will be solved 
cheers

[pumprescue]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.

Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.

No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.

[Zippy]

Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource! Not all brigades are equipped or trained for storm damage ops (even cutting up a fallen tree on a road).
Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.
It's the same argument as used in RCR the Green book gives the minimum standard for all, but it's not enforced by all.

might be time for a Pink book for Severe Weather incidents

[Zippy]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.

Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.

No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.

completely agree with you about that.

[safireservice]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.

Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.

No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.

Where on the page does it say 1 truck? I thought when CFS are paged they are paging the brigade? So if the likes of Mt barker get paged for a house fire and MTBK19 comes up they only should send 1 truck to it?? So youre with Salisbury MFS then?

[RescueHazmat]

3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!!

Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! 

agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.

Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.

No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.

Where on the page does it say 1 truck? I thought when CFS are paged they are paging the brigade? So if the likes of Mt barker get paged for a house fire and MTBK19 comes up they only should send 1 truck to it?? So youre with Salisbury MFS then?

Last time I checked, Barker don't often get paged to assist MFS.

-His point (which is quite clear), is if X CFS brigade is paged to asssit MFS at a House Fire.. - Dont roll with 2 BA on one truck, then 5 mins later bring the 34 with another BA operator, then the Spare with 2 operators 15 mins later.. - WAIT a couple of mins till all 4 BA get there, and send the one truck.

If you only get 2 BA, send the one truck (as requested), if more rock up 10 mins later, too bad, you missed the call..

No need to dump the "house".. EG.(Don't Respond every appliance into MFS area, in 5 min intervals with the crew who arrive 15 mins into the job).. - Quite frankly, if it keeps happening, you might find the requests will cease..

[chook]

Or we just don't worry about it Zippy ( I know you were only kidding  )! If the service introduces another book, SOP, instruction (whatever )- it will just be ignored by those who think they know better.
Have to agree with SA fire, I was always under the impression that brigades/ units were paged & if there was a special requirement provided by that particular brigade/ unit then it would be identified e.g.boat, floatation pump etc.
Having said that I also agree with the comment on vehicles clogging up the parking area/scene & if a particular brigade/ unit is not the first response & can't provide a full crew then they should stay in the shed.
It looks totally unproffessional to have multitudes of vehicles around a scene just because "everyone wants to be there".
Finally everyone (well almost everyone) sticks their boot into Adelaide fire (I know I have  ) but imagine how inefficient it would be trying to second guess every task (i.e are they the closest?, should I put only one truck?, if I get this wrong they will bag me on that filtered forum ).
Seriously think about how many jobs go right & what the ultimate aim is - if too many trucks is the problem or certain brigades are not getting enough jobs, maybe you are over resourced? By the way if you get a chance have a look at the latest report on volunteering it's an interesting read. And on that happy note - cheers

[Zippy]

i would think the CFS Promotions website has to be the best Resource Directory around!   (Pip, Ashes...would be good to have a section to search by suburb for the nearest of something eg.   cudlee creek    PPV Fan  Two finds:  Lobethal and gumeracha)

[chook]

Maybe for CFS but not every service - no disrepsect Pip it's a great site!

[Darius]

it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect.  I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades.  But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.

not quite....agreed in principle is I believe the term used....lots of sticking points from all services that still need to be addressed (or the perspective of that particular Service representative re-aligned by his his Chief...lol).

So signed off for implementation, still a ways off

well responses in BOMS were changed based on it and CRD notification of issue forms are lodged based on it

[6739264]

Ok. Can I try to make this really easy for everyone involved?

There are a couple of different scenarios being discussed here and they need to be separated. Its more about commonsense than a hard and fast rule.

First of all, lets say there is a House Fire on the border of Mt. Barker and Littlehapton. Its the middle of the day. We all know Mt. Barker can get crews for at least two trucks, Littlehampton are good, but not a certainty. In this case, I would immediately turn out the Pump and 24P from Mt. Barker, as they both carry CABA, and would have enough operators. When Littlehampton arrive in their 24P and 24 if they get enough crew, that makes 4 trucks total on the fire ground. This ain't bad for a volunteer service. Depending on the fire, you would even query Littlehampton 24.

Ok, so nothing wrong with that. CFS turning out into CFS area. Brigades turning out more than one truck. Questionable crewing, daytime, etc etc etc.

Now for the Salisbury example, if SAMFS already have multiple resources assigned, they are not asking for the help of the CFS (Oh CFS COME SAVE US) its more of a courtesy than anything else. Much like the wacky responses for Seafood and Morphett Vale and MFS that sent 6 Trucks to a Rubbish fire, because the CFS boys took it upon themselves to unleash every truck in the station.

Use your head! Its not hard. If you are turning out into MFS area to a job of THEIRS, chances are they have it in hand at the moment, and you're backup or a courtesy. You don't need to rush out the door and then have the 'rest' of your BA crew come 15 minutes later. As RescueHazmat and others have already said in this thread, just relax and think.

As I was trying to suggest earlier in the thread as well, its in places like Mt. Lofty group that get 9 trucks to a small shed fire, block the road and look like a bunch of ******* because people don't think about whats been turned out, whats at the job already and whats needed. Got the 12 at the job and the 24P is crewed 10mins later? ASK if its needed. Need another resource? Try to get it from a Brigade already assigned rather than get another whole brigade and 100 trucks turned out.

People bang on about being Professional Volunteers, but as soon as the pagers go off, its like their brain melts and it turns into a Dads Army filtered with a billion trucks in a street doing nothing just so 'everyone gets a go'

_{MOD Note - Try to choose language that does not cause offence to anyone.}

[pumprescue]

I have never agreed with numbers more than this occasion.

We are talking about responding to MFS area. Not just CFS jobs. It happens all to often out north, being in both services, it does embarass me. Those that have been involved in EMA brigades for years will know that its 1 truck unless directed otherwise.

You send 1 truck, perhaps ring comms and say, hey look, we have another crew, do you want it? you will more than likely get told no, but stay around the area as you might get used for other jobs.

It just look very cowboyish to rock up with everything you can muster. Just remember, you are not the one's upgrading the job, MFS are. Sending all 3 trucks turns what would perhaps be a 2 and a half alarm job to 4th alarm, without it being asked for.

Stop doing it, your not helping.

[Darius]

Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource!
[....]
Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.

that's what a computer-based dispatch system is for! (different response types, different capabilities etc)

I should have known you'd pop up again as soon as I mentioned those letters SES. Try to understand this is not about having a go at SES volunteers or about turning everything into some kind of CFS vs SES thing.  It's about public safety being compromised because a much closer appropriate 'resource' is not being responded to some incident types (I'm thinking of the Adelaide Hills area but gather it happens elsewhere too).

[OMGWTF]

Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource!

In theory callsigns, ie 19, 00, 20, 29, 42, 28 etc...

maybe time to introduce one for CFS brigades with storm damage stowage, or just add 20 to them as well...

[Darius]

Ok. Can I try to make this really easy for everyone involved?

Mr numbers you're doing fine talking about MFS area but when you get stuck into lofty group again you're heading off on the wrong track.  And Rainer already explained why (I wouldn't have justified anything if I was him by the way, he is answerable to the group management and up the chain, not you, but anyway).

I am curious though why you say having too many (by your judgement of 'too many', were you there?) trucks on scene looks 'retarded'?  to whom?  I've never heard of any member of the public complain about too many trucks turning up to fight a fire.

you are in danger of sounding like one of those people that bang on about fire trucks should be red not white, or should be mercs instead of mazdas or whatever, at every opportunity because that's their opinion and they have a bee in their bonnet about it and are unable to see any other points of view. Those sort of people are not taken seriously you know.

[6739264]

Mr numbers you're doing fine talking about MFS area but when you get stuck into lofty group again you're heading off on the wrong track.  And Rainer already explained why (I wouldn't have justified anything if I was him by the way, he is answerable to the group management and up the chain, not you, but anyway).

I am simply using some of the more recent jobs that Mt. lofty group have attended to highlight what happens when Brigades turnout everything that they can without taking into account what is really need/already assigned to the job. I was not having a go at anyone, nor questioning the abilities of the IC. The only reason I'm specifically talking about Mt. Lofty is because they seem to always do it. Other groups are guilty of it as well, don't worry...

I am curious though why you say having too many (by your judgement of 'too many', were you there?) trucks on scene looks 'retarded'?  to whom?  I've never heard of any member of the public complain about too many trucks turning up to fight a fire.

I am a strong believer in getting the job done with the minimum of fuss and in the fastest time possible. I don't really care who 'gets a go' or who gets their fun for the week. I know that house fires are exciting and not all that common in certain areas of the state, but if you can't knock a house over with 4 pumps max, you need to reassess your basic skillset. There is simply no need to fill the street with trucks, when you have 99% of people not doing anything. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if it can be shown that EVERY person off EVERY truck is being put to good use. As soon as that is not the case, you have too many people - send them home.

I have been to MANY jobs that I believe have been over resourced both with the CFS and not. A parking lot for firetrucks just looks stupid and unprofessional if they are not all being used. This is REGARDLESS of the Service.

As for the general public, I have often heard "Whats on fire?" "XYZ" "OH? Why so many trucks?" for jobs, from structures to grass. It all comes down to public perception. If they see 2 trucks getting stuck in and the boys working their ring off, they think "Wow, look at those brave men" if they see 10 trucks and everyone standing doing nothing then we fall into the Dads Army category.

you are in danger of sounding like one of those people that bang on about fire trucks should be red not white, or should be mercs instead of mazdas or whatever, at every opportunity because that's their opinion and they have a bee in their bonnet about it and are unable to see any other points of view. Those sort of people are not taken seriously you know.

For the record, Red looks better and both Mercs and Mazdas look retarded as fire trucks.

Mate, I post on this site. Do you really think I believe I'm taken seriously? Or that I care in the slightest?

Edit: Spelllling

[Zippy]

Numbers,  +6 Kudos.

Minimum fuss and fast time is good, attempting to get it right at each job is what we should be aiming for.  As an incident controller if you believe youve got nearly enough resources on scene, ask for every oncoming appliance to downgrade to priority 2, rather than stop called, so more time can be had to assess.

and too right about merc's and mazda's....and for my record...Red with white (CFA) is my preference .

[jaff]

Honey....The kids are fighting with their cousins again!
Somewhere in a groups SOP I think it says "if its good enough for one truck, its good enough for all", lets party!