Oxygen & AED stowage

[tft]

for 250 units for the CFS:  $440,000    One or Two fire appliances.

What is the price of a Firefighters life ??
Bulk purchase much cheaper price, this has all ready been looked at!

[Zippy]

id definately go without two new appliances in order to save even 1 Life, No thinking involved at all.

I think its very affordable, even for the treasury peanut counters to relise.

[6739264]

So id suggest you stay away from something like the zoll brand then. The phillips AED is full proof and doesnt overload you with instructions like some AEDs, aslong as your doing some form of compressions its better than doing none. If you have senior first aid you should know how to do cpr properly. Phillips also make the MRX defibs that SAAS carry.

Tongue in cheek buddy

Anything is better than nothing, but having seen the results of some Snr. 1st aid refreshers I'd imagine that a little help to make things go a little smoother would be fantastic!

Compressions on the stomach, 2 compressions 15 breaths, 1 compression every few seconds, things like this can be sorted out with a little help.

[rescue5271]

If your going to buy the gear make sure you shop around.....

[6739264]

If your going to buy the gear make sure you shop around.....

Don't we just go straight to the lowest bidder?

Do Fisher Price make AEDs?

[JC]

Tongue in cheek buddy

Anything is better than nothing, but having seen the results of some Snr. 1st aid refreshers I'd imagine that a little help to make things go a little smoother would be fantastic!

Compressions on the stomach, 2 compressions 15 breaths, 1 compression every few seconds, things like this can be sorted out with a little help.

Ah right, long day underground, But your right about the first aid refreshers some interesting interpretations of CPR out there.

[tft]

Time for some facts  ( this is from USA)

* Heart attacks were the most frequent cause of death for 2007, with 52 firefighter deaths.
I wonder how many had AED's or wished they had them.
 I think you will also find that more than 1 brigade in the state has them.

[rescue5271]

I am well aware of a number of CFS brigade's that have or are about to buy this gear,good on them for having the money to do this but also for looking out of the box.....

[bittenyakka]

In this case i don;t think the USA augment is applicable as many US fire trucks also run to all medical calls. (hence probably have the equipment anyhow)

[Robert-Robert34]

In this case i don;t think the USA augment is applicable as many US fire trucks also run to all medical calls. (hence probably have the equipment anyhow)

Well said bittenyakka plus their fire fighters are also trained EMS technicians hence why they have all the medical equipment on their trucks and respond to medical emergencies

[CFS_Firey]

I think the USA argument was pointing out that firefighters die of heart failure more than they die of burns.  It wasn't comparing their stowage with ours...

[tft]

CFS_Firey you are correct, it had nothing to do with the EMS calls.

[6739264]

In terms of the US argument, its the same as we have here:

SA,Vic,NSW etc etc, all run A) Different Appliances B) Different Stwoage and C) some First responder services.

Not ALL US Departments run EMS, and often times those that do include EMS run Ambulances out of the station, they dont just have it all stowed on their Fire Appliances.

The fact that Heart Attacks were the most frequent cause of death has nothing to do with the stowage of appliances or the setup of EMS response.

[boredmatrix]

$1500-$2500ish for Phillips Brand.

BAH! Phillips makes Walkmans and Steros, not life saving technology. I want to save someone, not make them play a tune.

The Zoll for $2995.95, you get:

    * Not pushing hard enough? It will tell you when to push harder.
    * Pushing hard enough? It will say, "Good compressions."
    * Not pushing fast enough? A metronome will lead you to the right rate.
    * It will even show you the depth of each compression. In real time.
    * Not yet started? The AED Plus will tell you again to get started.
    * Compressions stopped? It will tell you to continue.

As well as all your usual AED funtions. In my book, anything that needs to be used by CFS volunteers, needs to be as simple and retard proof as possible - If its going to be used outside of Region 1 that is

that $2295 is the retail price...I reckon if you were to approach the right people you could knock at least $500 or more off that price....especially being a community volunteer group.....or if a Group wanted more than one I'm sure the distributors would talk turkey.....

[misterteddy]

$1500-$2500ish for Phillips Brand.

BAH! Phillips makes Walkmans and Steros, not life saving technology. I want to save someone, not make them play a tune.

The Zoll for $2995.95, you get:

    * Not pushing hard enough? It will tell you when to push harder.
    * Pushing hard enough? It will say, "Good compressions."
    * Not pushing fast enough? A metronome will lead you to the right rate.
    * It will even show you the depth of each compression. In real time.
    * Not yet started? The AED Plus will tell you again to get started.
    * Compressions stopped? It will tell you to continue.

As well as all your usual AED funtions. In my book, anything that needs to be used by CFS volunteers, needs to be as simple and retard proof as possible - If its going to be used outside of Region 1 that is

that $2295 is the retail price...I reckon if you were to approach the right people you could knock at least $500 or more off that price....especially being a community volunteer group.....or if a Group wanted more than one I'm sure the distributors would talk turkey.....

actually in the large part of the rest of the world...the Phillips brand is on what we see here as the Laerdal brand. Phillips make it - Laerdal brand it. Its just that in Australia (and a couple of other places) they signed a deal about single market access for the units (smart people them Laerdal types)

Don't be fooled by the Zoll bells and whistles....they are not that good and the research says that untrained punters get bamboozled by them. Depth of compressions cant be measured adequately for each particul;ar body type with their dinky little sensor....sorry, smokescreen marketing at play there. Also in Australia, Zoll are a pain in the arse to deal with. My advice (based on a lot of discussions with them over a number of years) - avoid them like the plague - sorry Robert.

All the major brands for sale in Australia do what they say in terms of delivering a shock when needed, some use different energy levels, although there is no independant research that defines a set energy level as best. All are relatively easy to use, although some of the cheaper lesser used brands (like the Sammaritan) are more difficult in my opinion for untrained people to use. Retard proof??....have to find a trial region to test it if u like....suggestions?...lol

As for costs.....if you were going to buy 400 units.....u'd get them for around $1000 ea...maybe $900 if the dollar picks up a little.

[boredmatrix]

Don't be fooled by the Zoll bells and whistles....they are not that good and the research says that untrained punters get bamboozled by them. Depth of compressions cant be measured adequately for each particul;ar body type with their dinky little sensor....sorry, smokescreen marketing at play there.

so if these chest compression things are such a smokescreen - why does the latest MRx from phillips that is being supplied to SAAS come with them as a standard item??

not to mention SAAS isn't even buying their (Phillips) AED's (not monitors....the AED's)choosing instead the Cardiac Science brand.....

[misterteddy]

so if these chest compression things are such a smokescreen - why does the latest MRx from phillips that is being supplied to SAAS come with them as a standard item??

because the sophistication of the algorithym in the $18k MRX is vastly superior (and several generations more advanced technically) to the $2k Zoll, but the statement is still valid that there is NO PROOF that these things work better than having nothing at all. Interestingly I'm aware that there was some anecdotal evidence that came out of a Company (who shall remain nameless) sponsored trial that showed that using a metronome tone and light resulted in decreased depth of chest compression.....funnily the trial was terminated- go figure. The algorithym the Zoll unit uses is to measure displacement between 38mm and 51mm which is the AHA guidline for compression depth. The Australian Resus Council rejected those numbers as possibly erroneous and without valid proof, and opted for 1/3 the depth of the chest, which makes allowance for differing body types. I can't find the actual algorithym data on the QCPR function in the MRX (not surprisingly - Laerdal are very secretive about what things ACTUALLY do and HOW they do it) , but it looks a similar concept

As the the Cardiac Science units for SAAS. They have always been good units, and if SAAS have bought the G3Pro (which i would assume they have), then it is an excellent unit, especially when you compare it to the tired Laerdal FR2, Lifepack 1000 and Zoll AED Pro units. Their only problem ever was that they were $1000 dearer than the competition. I hear around the traps that SAAS got the deal of the century on them - maybe there were some other  (Cardiac Science) motives behind getting them into the system regardless of making money on the deal - but that is just supposition  and conjecture (and normal practice in the AED market in Aust)

[boredmatrix]

thats an awful lot of technical information on that equipment for a pleb....


MOD! - WE HAVE A SALESMAN IN THE ROOM!!!

[tft]

I think he is only a part time salesman !

[misterteddy]

thats an awful lot of technical information on that equipment for a pleb....


MOD! - WE HAVE A SALESMAN IN THE ROOM!!!

Mu'um!!!.....mu'um!!...make him stop mu'um

awww c'mon...lol...dont misinterpret someone who has worked with them, compared them AND studied the research as having to be a salesman. Funny how the same reference isnt made to all the Monday night experts in the fire related forums...lolol. If you dont know the science behind your equipment.....then ur just a user....and anyone can do that...it certainly doesnt take a degree  ...nor justify a case for wage increase.....which may or may not be in the process of being formulated  All the information mentioned is off the companies concerned websites,, its there for anyone with an interest to look at and critically review.

 

[Alan J]

I hear around the traps that SAAS got the deal of the century on them - maybe there were some other  (Cardiac Science) motives behind getting them into the system regardless of making money on the deal - but that is just supposition  and conjecture (and normal practice in the AED market in Aust)

Possibly purchased when AU$ was worth US95c rather than US65c ?

[mattb]

Just wondering if other brigades have started purchasing AED's yet.

Our Group has now got one in each Command Car and each brigade is likely to get one (due to some second hand ones being donated) my brigade is about to purchase at least another one - possibly two depending on how another grant application goes.

Should the CFS be recommending a particular brand or model, or do we just leave it up to brigades to purchase whatever they like.

I've got a few quotes on different models but am still not sure which one to go for, and reading some of the info on here confused the situation a bit more. Anyone got an suggestions for up to $3000.

[Zippy]

The Phillips model seems to be the most common...

Command car > Done
Appliances > Soon (1 AED, several O2's)

heres a question, to get other Point of views.

Would an AED be more worthwhile to be placed on a 34 or 14.

Theory is, that a 14 is able to become a Ad-hoc command vehicle so yes it seems sensible.

Meanwhile 34's are out of the fireground having to do a heap more work in between Rest (refill) breaks.

[CFS_Firey]

Here's another question:  Would an AED be better on a rural appliance, or an urban appliance?  (If you're in a brigade lucky enough to have both).
As far as resuscitating members of the public, it's more likely to get used on an Urban (inc. Rescue) appliance, but if you want it for the fire fighters, I'm thinking a rural appliance would be better?

[bajdas]

The Phillips model seems to be the most common...

Command car > Done
Appliances > Soon (1 AED, several O2's)

heres a question, to get other Point of views.

Would an AED be more worthwhile to be placed on a 34 or 14.

Theory is, that a 14 is able to become a Ad-hoc command vehicle so yes it seems sensible.

Meanwhile 34's are out of the fireground having to do a heap more work in between Rest (refill) breaks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is a multi-appliance incident that requires a command vehicle around, would you not have first-aid facilities already at the base for everyone (eg eye wash, smoke affected, exhaustion, small wounds, etc)?

At least the base would be easy access via sealed roads for SAAS (thus quick response) & multiple people around to assist.

But out at the fire front, you would have a longer delay in the AED & O2 getting to the casualty. Also less people to assist the casuality & a more dangerous environment (incl dust, dirt, smoke, heat, etc). Not only for fellow crew, but also if you find a casualty on the fire ground.

If so, personally I would put the equipment on the 34. They will be more isolated when working & the bonus is that the equipment is at site for a less than 3 appliance incident, when the command car is not around. That is if you can fit the extra equipment in the truck.

If you are going to transport the equipment via a command car to the site, I would have thought it would arrive too late to be useful.

If the 34 did the transport, it will have extra protection equipment for the casualty in the fireground environment when compared to a command car.

Just my thoughts.