PBi at MVAs

[rescue5271]

Nomex level 3 did meet our needs and the AUST STAND, but for some reason we got PBI gold and i guess we are stuck with it till there is a change at how we buy things with in the CFS.....

[chook]

Yeah I have a set of Nomex level 3 at work and we wouldn't have bought it if it didn't meet Australian Standards (& that would have been good cause I would have got the$1200 lime green set instead  ).
cheers

[Cameron Yelland]

I thought the standard had changed or something, therefore the move to PBI?  oh well back to the drawing board.

[RescueHazmat]

Like I have said, like Rainer has said, and as JC / any one else that has to wear it at work, I think its great. I MUCH prefer it over Nomex. That is my personal opinion based on experience. Everyone will have their own opinions, and so be it.

I do however think the mis-match look is ridiculous (The service does have an image/reputation it 'attempts' to uphold). . However I understand how it saves time / minimises the carrying of extra gear. Lose lose really..

[pumprescue]

Hate to tell you Bill, but your wrong, CFS Nomex level 3 does not meet Australian Standards, it actually never did. To be a true offensive firefighting garment it had to have a thermal and moisture liner in BOTH the pants and jacket. Clearly the CFS Level 3 Nomex didn't come close.

Don't be confused with the fact that Nomex the material meets the standard, just not the original CFS Level 3 Nomex.

Like I have said before, there was a big thing about wearing Nomex to everything when it first came in, I remember my brigade proposed to only carry 4 sets of Nomex on each truck and you put it on if there was a structure fire, now we wear it to everything.
The novelty factor will wear off and no one will care anymore.

[chook]

Thanks for clearing that up mate - not that we need the full capabilities of level 3 gear anyway. Am a bit annoyed it was sold to us fully compliant & it isn't! It certainly meets our needs as is.
cheers

[safireservice]

Has anyone actualy compared the new nomex stuff to some of the older stuff? The material seems a lot thinner, so probably wouldnt provide as good protection as some of the older stuff anyway, rural or structure.

[pumprescue]

Yeah I would be interested to see a comparison, I am still wearing my first set from 1998, the new stuff "appears" thinner.

[uniden]

Hate to tell you Bill, but your wrong, CFS Nomex level 3 does not meet Australian Standards, it actually never did. To be a true offensive firefighting garment it had to have a thermal and moisture liner in BOTH the pants and jacket. Clearly the CFS Level 3 Nomex didn't come close.

Don't be confused with the fact that Nomex the material meets the standard, just not the original CFS Level 3 Nomex.

Like I have said before, there was a big thing about wearing Nomex to everything when it first came in, I remember my brigade proposed to only carry 4 sets of Nomex on each truck and you put it on if there was a structure fire, now we wear it to everything.
The novelty factor will wear off and no one will care anymore.

Hence when you went to Brukunga to do gas prop training, you used their supplied Nomex outfits that had both pants and jackets lined.

[pumprescue]

I remember when we did one of the first compartment courses they told us to wear 2 sets of Nomex, even then it was rather toasty.

[bittenyakka]

hicks

it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?

is this right?
because it make no sense it that is the case. i don;t really want to sacrifice my protection so other crew fell better

i wish it was feasible for everyone to take both sets of gear to every job

Not everyone has both sets of gear which is what the issue here really is. The majority of people here are saying that they want the choice of wearing their PBI to things that dont require PBI. Why shouldn't everyone have that choice?

correct so don;t restrict a uniforms use

[rescue5271]

What about the new level 3 nomex gear that is out??

[pumprescue]

What new Level 3 ?

[Zippy]

bill are you refering to the Lime Green CFA Nomex Gear?

Only the CFS Public Affairs guys and girls have level 1 lime green nomex.

[rescue5271]

I will have to find the paperwork and read it,but there is new nomex level 3 gear around and meets all the AUST STAND,someone on here may know something about it..Was talking to some MFS guys during the week and they only wear the PBI jacket at MVA'S at night to keep them warm,some of the old timers who are station officer dont like it so each to there own.

[CFS_Firey]

Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.

Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.

Can you justify why you think that's right please?

[Hicksflat14]

hicks

it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?

is this right?

I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.

Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.

The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.

Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.

Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.

Can you justify why you think that's right please?

Yes I can.

There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.

As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.

Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.

[Zippy]

There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.

after checking the hazchem codes S,T,Y,Z requires Level 3 Structure PPE. (and id be more inclined to use PBI with its thickness and chemical protection)...

then again....9/10 ill be in a liquid tight suit for a hazmat or in coveralls for zone operating,   so level 1 is just fine.

Im another "for" individual choice.

[Cameron Yelland]

So your saying that if PBI is unavailable to the operator and they enter a burning structure, they can do so in Nomex?  Despite not meeting AUS standards?

[pumprescue]

hicks

it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?

is this right?

I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.

Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.

The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.

Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.

Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.

Can you justify why you think that's right please?

Yes I can.

There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.

As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.

Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.

Gee, Fire and Rescue at Blackwood would be jaded that PBI came in if its not needed 

I still can't see how a garment that doesn't meet Australian standards can be supported. I think I will be telling my crews to wear the maximum.

[tft]

When PBI was issued no risk assessment had been completed, but when nomex was first issued the risk assessment had been completed.
Which version of PBI do users have
hmm which was the version of PBI that caught on fire???

[CFS_Firey]

Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.

Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.

Can you justify why you think that's right please?

Yes I can.

There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.

As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.

Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.

You make valid points, but I think it should be acknowledged that we are in a "changeover period" when it comes to our PPE, and while we may have a choice now, (and an officially CFS supported choice), that doesn't mean both options are good choices.

I'd draw a parallel to when BA was first being introduced, (well before my time), I'm sure the policy was "if a BA is available, wear it, but if it's not, hold your breath and go in anyway".  Now we insist on BA without exception, and look back at those times pitying the firefighters dieing of lung cancer.

The PBI Gold / Nomex choice may not result in issues as serious as cancer, but it may well be that we look back on this time and wonder why anyone would choose, (or allow their crews to choose), the lower level of protection when a better one was available.

(End of sermon)

[bittenyakka]

nice sermon 

hicks

it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?

is this right?

I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.

Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.

The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.

I will say of course i would love to have all crews in Pbi but will acknowledge it would cost way to much.
So the crews who are willing to go into structure fires which does have more risk should be afforded better protection.

Next it seems the debate is more of a debate between Nomex with Lvl 3 liner. Well i don;t have that all I have is Pbi and proban and in my opinion proban is not that good. SO due to the fact that many vollies have proban lvl1 lets consider that in comparison to Pbi for these jobs. AND that CANNOT be worn into structure fires.

[SA Firey]

Wait for the new official CFS poster to come out

[pumprescue]

Which tells you its the officers descission !! Nice one, still tells you nothing.