PBi at MVAs

[Red Message]

Interesting discussion so far. I'll bite.

Its probably a little different for my brigade, as we have the Rescue truck, the Urban truck, the Rural truck, etc, all with rather defined roles. eg: The pumper rarely turns out as primary to a scrub fire...

Within this framework, I wear PBI to everything, unless I am on one of our rural appliances that has no BA stowage. As far as PBI +Lvl 1 is concerned, the looks may not be great but its functional and as the CFS dropped the ball on PBI I'm happy to wear 1/2 - 1/2, and preferably, just PBI pants and T-Shirt.

In terms of dropping the ball, CFS had a really great opportunity to introduce a lightweight, long sleeve, cotton work shirt to be worn (a la MFS) with the PBI when the conditions dictate that full kit is not required. This helps to combat heat stress issues and looking mildly retarded in a lvl 1 coat, while still maintaining the level of protection necessary for both rural and rescue incidents.

I believe that the CFS minimum PPE for a rescue job is Lvl 1 turnout gear? Correct? Then, our problem is solved. As long as you are wearing something that meets or exceeds the standard, there is no issue. Its like Splash Suits and Gas Suits. As long as you have the minimum, you are only making a choice to increase the level of protection you have. I don't believe that PBI provides any greater protection specifically at rescue incidents and if anything, I think it's bulkier, heavier, hotter and a general pain in the arse as far as rescue is concerned. At work, 100% cotton pants and shirt (+gloves etc etc) is the minimum for any rescue work, and at MVA's the only person in their full turnout gear is the bloke providing fire cover.

I'm all for firefighter safety, but I really don't really agree that going down the path of 'PBI provides better protection at MVA's' is the right way to go, especially when countered with the heat stress argument. The weather protection it gives is great, and wouldn't be an issue if the CFS made raincoats a standard item that didn't need to be fought tooth and nail for.

That said, I do wear my PBI for rescue work, I find that the pants are more comfortable, more durable and more padded for my abused knees. I try to ditch the turnout coat asap, but hey, bring on the work shirts.

Don't forget that the old L3 nomex, was never a complete L3 outfit. Only the turnout coat had the liner...
(unless you are super special or lived at STC)

Cheers!

[ltdan]

I agree with "Red Message"

We have the gar use it to your personal needs.

I am a yes, I wear most of the time in the winter cos of the reasons members have outlined:  More pockets etc, Better on your knees when kneeling at a MVA, Waterproof, Warm on cold night, to name a few.

If our rural jackets eg nomex was the same colour as PBI, I could guarantee that you would wear your PBI L3 pants and Rural Jacket.  But because our jackets are canary yellow or Australian gold however you want to look at it we do not. 

We want a kit which is multi-purpose not a kit which is limited.  I can recall the Mt.Bold fire where our fire appliance arrived on that afternoon to a going structure which probably could of had the damage to the property reduced if we had L3 clothing to enter with our CABA, but as we did not have our PBI all we could do was perform an defensive attack from outside.

You could argue why didn't they take their liner for their nomex (as we use to).  I can't answer that question as I do not know. 

But if were able to wear a L3 pants which are not hot and actually, majority of your heat dissipates above your waist, wouldn't it be smarter to provide a shirt or similar jacket for wildfire suppression like SAMFS do now. It would make crew members easier to store their PPE on their appliance.

I know from our group we were advised to wear PBI pants to most jobs and take your L1 jacket.  I don't fully agree with this idea.  But I do agree that in the winter season PBI can be worn due to the climate and conditions.

If we are passionate about our views our ideas it needs to go to V & E and OH&S to provide solutions eg A shirt or a jacket to be worn with the L3 PBI pants.  Or not keep waiting for them to give us an answer.  Maybe when BC's OH&S reps go to the OH&S safety whatever meeting on the April 28th for Region 1 they can outline this issue.

[Zippy]

I quite like your idea of a Level 1 Jacket that matchs the PBI Gold Pants, would help cut down the amount of gear required for each volly..and the lower half doesnt tend to have as bad heat stress effect as the top half.

[SA Firey]

It also depends on what the group has made an SOP, and in our case PBI is only worn to structure incidents ie Alarms,Domestic related responses. Everything else is Nomex MVA's,Rural jobs,etc

While I would prefer to wear the best protection available I know wearing PBI on a 40 dgeree day at an MVA would not be comfortable, so an alternate Level 1 clothing is an option CFS should look at, and forget the politics of we dont want to be MFS. Let us decide what we want to wear and go forward.

[ltdan]

No SA Firey,

Why should we re-invent the wheel.

To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.

Eg pumpers, RCR equipment, CABA equipment etc etc etc etc.

If something works and is already designed why not go with it.  I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing.  And VICE VERSA.

All comes back to this, if our level 1 was the same colour as PBI gold this would not be an issue!!

[RescueHazmat]

No SA Firey,

Why should we re-invent the wheel.

To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.

Eg pumpers, RCR equipment, CABA equipment etc etc etc etc.

If something works and is already designed why not go with it.  I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing.  And VICE VERSA.

All comes back to this, if our level 1 was the same colour as PBI gold this would not be an issue!!

Here here..

[CFS_Firey]

...I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing.  And VICE VERSA...

Actually, I want to be like the MFS.  They are far more professional than the CFS, they have better equipment, they have a union that seems to look after them...  Why wouldn't you want to be like them?

(also your post sounds like you disagree with SAFirey, but I think you're arguing the same point...)

[Zippy]

...I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing.  And VICE VERSA...

Actually, I want to be like the MFS.  They are far more professional than the CFS, they have better equipment, they have a union that seems to look after them...  Why wouldn't you want to be like them?

(also your post sounds like you disagree with SAFirey, but I think you're arguing the same point...)

Here....Here.   Good points there Mel.

[JJD]

[ PERSONAL PROTECTIVE CLOTHING ROLL-OUT ]
By: Sandy Paterson, Manager Vehicles and Equipment

In early 2006, the Country
Fire Service (CFS)
received funding to roll
out the new PBI Gold
structural firefighting
garments and to provide
wildland garments to replace
older style clothing that is no
longer fit for purpose.
By the end of July 2006,
more than 1,400 sets of
structural garments and
494 sets of wildland garments had
been received and distributed to
brigades, with some additional
garments still to be delivered.
Also being delivered are 1,500
flash hoods to complement the
structural garments.
Delivery of these items will result
in every currently competent CABA
wearer being issued with the latest
quality protective clothing to
improve fire fighter safety.
Standards for PPE
This table provides a quick guide to
assist in determining what may be
used in various circumstances.
All PPE used in CFS must be
certified as compliant with the
appropriate standard.

STANDARD ITEM MAY BE USED IN
AS1801 Type 3 Wildland Helmet All areas except internal
structural firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 1 Wildland Glove Wildland firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 2 or 3 Structural Glove All areas
AS4067 Structural Helmet All areas
AS4821 Type 1 Wildland Boot Wildland firefighting (Includes
Taipan elastic sided boot)
AS4821 Type 2 Structural Boot All areas
AS4824 Wildland Garment All areas except internal
structural firefighting
EN467 Structural Garment All areas except Wildland
firefighting (Lion PBI Gold)

This is from the "Volunteer" Magazine, Vol 115 - September 2006

I thought i remembered reading something about this, previous issues of the volunteer are available for download from the cfs website.

[Zippy]

AS4824 Wildland Garment All areas except internal
structural firefighting
EN467 Structural Garment All areas except Wildland
firefighting (Lion PBI Gold)

Thats very interesting to know

Thanks for that JJD.

So there we have it, PBI can be worn at every incident, but except "wildfires".  End of debate?? lol

[RescueHazmat]

Not end of the Debate.. - Regions and groups may have seperate rulings.

[Zippy]

ah darn it *JD returns to Scrubs*

[Red Message]

Considering that that list contradicts the CFS Headwear policy, I'll stick to using my own common sense.

[bittenyakka]

yeah it says i can wear my structure helmet to bushfires? i currently get told off if i do.

[Gilly]

Unless its paged as a grass fire, i'll wear PBI. If i get hot, i put my level one coat on. I dont have a problem with it.

I can recall the Mt.Bold fire where our fire appliance arrived on that afternoon to a going structure which probably could of had the damage to the property reduced if we had L3 clothing to enter with our CABA, but as we did not have our PBI all we could do was perform an defensive attack from outside.

We have brigade a rule where you take all your gear to all jobs, training etc. Its bulky, but can be shoved it behind seats, hung up, whatever.

[bittenyakka]

i get the feeling that that rule is becoming more common. I like it.

[Cameron Yelland]

Well i have taken the attitude of PBI for winter and Nomex (yellows) for summer unless its a predetermined structural response.  This not only refers to responses but for training and truck runs etc.

Currently i am receiving alot of crap from my group because of this.  What are peoples thoughts on this?  Why do people take the opinion that PBI is this emotionally crippled piece of clothing that cant be worn anywhere but structural responses?

I have taken this attitude due to a call last week, which we were responded to a rubbish fire (completely legal in our part of the country, so therefore we were going just to investigate) but in fact this call turned out to be a shed fire.  Due to me wearing my yellows i wasnt properly equipped to wear my BA (yes i understand nomex was previously used for ba but for arguements sake lets just keep it to PBI!).

Anyway what are peoples thoughts?

[RescueHazmat]

I wear it to everything. (Except rural).

My body, my safety, my decision.

[jaff]

I wear it to everything. (Except rural).

My body, my safety, my decision.

Geez RescueHazmat you could write Panadol adverts for a living  , agree with the sentiments though!

Cheers Jaff

[OMGWTF]

personally i would like to wear it to every call at my own discretion...

however, in my group the heirachy and our procedures clearly say only for structure [fire] related responses... and although theres nothing they can really do, people that dont obey get a stern talking too...

[SA Firey]

No SA Firey,

Why should we re-invent the wheel.

To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.(quote)

Response from SAFirey

For the record I was'nt asking us to re-invent the wheel, as I and others are working with the SOP's that were stipulated regarding the wearing of PBI......I DONT MAKE THE RULES

[ltdan]

Jeff, their is no formal SOP in wearing PBI Gold.  Only a directive

[SA Firey]

Jeff, their is no formal SOP in wearing PBI Gold.  Only a directive

Group SOP's

[Zippy]

im not exactly sure the term GROUP SOP's even exists?   mostly  "Common Sense" exists within a group...hopefully 

[ltdan]

group sop's