PBi at MVAs

[bittenyakka]

This came up on Ozfire and as that isn't really the right plaec to discuss it i thought i would ask opinions here.

It was directly related to a MVA on the freeway on Monday arvo where I did where PBi gold. Now I have always been told to wear PBi to MVAs what are your thoughts?

[Bowforce]

Well atleast you have PBI....had to borrow some for the house fire we attended today....did BA course middle of last year.  I always thought you could only wear it to house/structure fires?

[mengcfs]

I would assume a vehicle fire (wearing BA of course) would constitute the wearing of PBI gold. It seems, as was the case when we were first issued the gear, that Groups and Regions still have their own rules/recommendations for the use of it.

[SA Firey]

Rule of thumb has been non structure fire related Nomex, and anything Structure Fire related ie fixed/private alarms,domestic,brush fence etc PBI.

[safireservice]

I thought the photo of the firey wearing PBI pants and Nomex? top looked a bit odd. I didnt think you were supposed to do that?

[bittenyakka]

Rule of thumb has been non structure fire related Nomex, and anything Structure Fire related ie fixed/private alarms,domestic,brush fence etc PBI.

Is this nomex L1 ie nomex or proban and bushwacker helmet or L3 structual nomex which some of us don't have and is what pbi is replacing?

I thought the photo of the firey wearing PBI pants and Nomex? top looked a bit odd. I didnt think you were supposed to do that?

If it doesn't compremise you saftey why not?

[OMGWTF]

nomex is only level 1 until you introduce a liner...


a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc

[Hicksflat14]

Could all those people who answer yes explain why?

Is it the old argument of "but we may get called to go to something else", or is it more the case that it provides better protection from something at an MVA be it a hazard or the environment?

If it's the latter, could someone explain why non BA trained people should not be afforded the same level of protection?

The fact that people are still debating this after this length of time since PBI was first issued, is a joke. The CFS should have put out a policy BEFORE the uniform was even introduced! The fact they haven't would indicate you can wear it to what you want absent of any other documented procedure laid down by the Group or the brigade.

Does anyone know if the CFS has done the risk assessment yet on the PBI? You know the one that should have been undertaken and lodged before it was purchased...

[Zippy]

It does tend to be personal preference....based on a case by case decision when your donning your PPE at the station. 

Id personally would not like to come from a RCR to a House fire in my Level 1 without liner and get told to don BA and go inside...but i would definitely "think about it" if it was a must (Persons reported)..

Personal safety is after all in individual decision. Just means someone isnt allowed to whinge about getting a tiny bit hotter than usual due to trapped body heats


Further to that...i did forget to outline the positives of it at a Road crash incident.   Protection from fluids either from the car and/or casualties,  Sharps from the car,  The Winter coldness and its rain...

[Hicksflat14]

Further to that...i did forget to outline the positives of it at a Road crash incident.   Protection from fluids either from the car and/or casualties,  Sharps from the car,  The Winter coldness and its rain...

So why should someone who has done BA have a higher level of protection from from sharps, fluids and rain than a member that hasn't?

[RescueHazmat]

nomex is only level 1 until you introduce a liner...


a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc

I agree.. - Im not really phased which is worn.. - Just dont wear half and half!

[Zippy]

Thats a tough question to answer Hicks.   altho i quite like High Vis Jackets when it comes to on scene presence visibility.

[bittenyakka]

The answer hicks is Yes they should have PBi but we don;t have the money and for the time being level 1 is fine but if PBi is avalible to you the added protection zippy mentioned make it worth wearing.

[Firefrog]

Why do people persist with the idea that PBI is structural gear only? It is fire fighter protective clothing. Apart from grass and scrub fire fighting why would you not wear the best gear you can?

Absolutely wear PBI to every single job you can. I'd wear it to a cat up a tree.....

[bittenyakka]

SWEET someone else who thinks like I do

[Alan (Big Al)]

I've watched one of our snr's almost exhaust himself from heat at a RCR on a 25 degree day wearing PBi and it was only a 20 min cutout, why would you wear it to a non structural job on a screaming hot day??

[bittenyakka]

I wouldn't, but as with everything it has it's benefits and costs. in  this case protection vs heat and a bit of weight.

However you can easily make simple adjustments to cope eg. if it is a 30+ degree day and you got to a house fire call that extra crew to enable full and appropriate breaks for you crews etc.

[jaff]

CFS has been appalling in there issuing of definate guidelines as to the wearing of PBI, this job was meant to be completed almost 18 months ago that im aware of, an absolute embarrasment by technical services, they need a bollocking from above. If we took that long to put together paperwork as critical as this, we would have a please (probably not that polite) explain.

[bittenyakka]

In away i fell this thread is a bit stupid that we even need SOP or SOG or rules or what ever on the wearing of uniforms can't we just decide for ourselves?

[RescueHazmat]

If their wasn't guidelines, the reputation of the service would be pi$$ed out the window in minutes..

- If the thread is a bit stupid, why did you create it??

[pumprescue]

CFS is a joke,no wonder they call us the Clown Fire Service, I love the new poster coming out, Officers Discretion, in other words we can't be bothered making a rule, you guys work it out, and what happens when we get it wrong, can't beleive it took them 3 years to come up with that, yes its been 3 years, I got my PBI in June 2005 !!

[bittenyakka]

If their wasn't guidelines, the reputation of the service would be pi$$ed out the window in minutes..

- If the thread is a bit stupid, why did you create it??

At the time i thought it was a good idea and wanted opinions. However it has moved to what have the bosses told us to do.

"we don't know what to do we need to be told rather than think."

yeas some issues NEED guidelines but what uniform to wear? as fire frog said

Why do people persist with the idea that PBI is structural gear only? It is fire fighter protective clothing. Apart from grass and scrub fire fighting why would you not wear the best gear you can?

Absolutely wear PBI to every single job you can. I'd wear it to a cat up a tree.....

[mattb]

In away i fell this thread is a bit stupid that we even need SOP or SOG or rules or what ever on the wearing of uniforms can't we just decide for ourselves?

Well for our brigade and others in our Group this has been an issue since PBI was introduced.

There are many in our Group that feel PBI should be worn at all non rural incidents, just for the greater level of protection it affords in a range of situations.

As Hicksflat pointed out though, that does leave some with and some without the increased protection. Not that this is anything new - in my brigade B.A. operators wear structure helmets to all jobs whilst everyone else is issued a rural helmet, so disparity amongst a brigade is not a new issue.

We pushed the point about wearing PBI to jobs a lot in the early days and got shot down severely, our Group Officers then took the issue to the Regional management meetings and we were told that all Region One Group Officers had agreed that until a policy from HQ is put together all brigades in the Region will only wear PBI to structure related incidents, obviously though some groups were still doing there own thing - we probably would have too if it wasn't for our Group Officers pushing us so hard about it.

The problem for us is that we often get turned out to an MVA or rubbish bin fire and then get a run on to a structure related job - so it means carrying two sets of gear to every call. The physical limitations of six crew each with a set of PBI and Nomex are obvious - the space in our 24P cab is small enough as it is.

What do you do??

The worst case scenario for us is to arrive at a going house fire job in Nomex, do you go in wearing PPE that does not meet the Australian Standards and risk an injury or do you wear PBI to all non rural jobs and manage the heat associated issues arising from that - I think I will take the later.

For info the poster that HQ is bringing out on the use of PBI says that you can only wear it to structure related incidents, however the OIC can use their discretion to wear it to any other jobs, I will be exercising my discretion a lot.

One needs to ask why this document wasn't distributed with the gear, it would have saved a few hassles.

[CFS_Firey]

a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc

Wouldn't meet any standard?  I've been led to believe that standards are measured at the weakest point, so if you're wearing a level 1 coat, but PBI pants, you're wearing gear to the level 1 standard.  PBI Gold meets, and exceeds the level 1 standard. (It has to in order to meet the level 3 one).

Could all those people who answer yes explain why?

Is it the old argument of "but we may get called to go to something else", or is it more the case that it provides better protection from something at an MVA be it a hazard or the environment?

For me, it's a bit of both.  PBI Gold is water proof, and also most-common-chemical proof.  It's also more padded for when you're kneeling in oil and coolant setting up stabilisation at an MVA.
I would fully support supplying PBI to all members (ignoring the cost for a moment) - I had a liner for my nomex before I was BA, and I never suffered as a result.

I wear PBI because I find it more comfortable than nomex, more functional in that I don't get wet, I have more pockets & gear loops, and I think it looks a whole lot better than nomex (or proban).  I have also never had a problem with overheating.

Id personally would not like to come from a RCR to a House fire in my Level 1 without liner and get told to don BA and go inside...but i would definitely "think about it" if it was a must (Persons reported)..

Personal safety is after all in individual decision. Just means someone isnt allowed to whinge about getting a tiny bit hotter than usual due to trapped body heats

Would you also go in if you had no BA on your truck?  Why?

I've watched one of our snr's almost exhaust himself from heat at a RCR on a 25 degree day wearing PBi and it was only a 20 min cutout, why would you wear it to a non structural job on a screaming hot day??

I've also seen Seniors and Lieutenants exhaust themselves with heat wearing nomex.  How is that different?   You work hard at a job, if you're getting too hot, you take a break.


The PBI Pants and Nomex coat idea was floated to deal with the problem of needing to carry 2 sets of gear.  the Idea is that if you wear your PBI pants to everything, then you only need to bring a spare coat, rather than a full set.

[Firey9119]

hey all time for my 2 cents worth


where do mfs stand on this matter?? they wear pbi to just about everything!!
they are a fire service and human just like us in the cfs

they suffer just like us and i would guess they just deal with it!!