Land Search MORIALTA PARK

[sesroadcrashrescue]

after being on a Land search course over the weekend and being informed that the Mounted team will be responded more i cant understand why the mounted team hasn't been responded as yet time being 1940hrs.

does anybody else have 2cents to say 

[chook]

Who ran your course? - just curious thats all. Just I'm on the team thats reviewing the new (yet to be released) TRK & a Landsearch trainer yet I haven't been told any such thing.
Not that there is anything wrong with the mounted unit, I agree it should be utilised more (it costs a fair bit to maintain & is under utilised).
But as you would be aware, the SAPOL SARMAC decides what resources are used - we can only recommend!
So by making such a statement the person who told you this, may be giving you false hope.
As you are also aware the mounted unit takes a bit of time to deploy & also needs a bit more requirements (feed, water etc) where as quad bikes only require fuel(as you also know).
Finally out of all of the searches I've been involved in we have only had the dogs deployed twice (another two times stop called) & only on the search once & the dogs are easier to deploy than the horses! I can't think of one where we would need you guys (we use the backs of 4x4's & the bikes instead).
So I wish you luck & the next course (just like everyone in the past) I teach I will mention you guys, but as I said at the end of the day its up to our friends in blue to all you guys.
cheers

[Jimmy]

Quite simply the terrain was not suitable for the horses. Overgrown, narrow, steep.

[sesroadcrashrescue]

it was mention that the mounted team is moving from north region to state and will still belong to Kapunda unit as a mounted response is a full unit response.

our mounted team is self reliant for 24hours before we need food supplies we carry water and hay

also our riders can move through most areas and have been used in the finders a lot and can go more places then quad or car can

how response time is reasonable considering the logistics of moving horses around and can be on the road in 30 to 60 mins depending on how many horses, pick up points and if the owners are home or need to get home first but in the last three years our longest mounted response time was 45mins (one mounted team member had to get home from gawler to RV with the truck and float)

but yes our team supposedly will be used more and more and possibly be on first response depending on what the search is for.

oh and for this new TRK whats the point in changing if its still not going to line up with the rest of the nation if your changing something to fall into line with other states doesnt it make sense so have the same training not having 8 differnt ways             

[Pipster]

Sorry, but I am yet to see a horse climb a near vertical cliff in the dark.....

Half the tracks in Morialta are big enough to comfortably drive 34's through - which is perhaps quicker & easier than getting a horse there.

Many of the other tracks are very narrow (eg wide enough for a person to walk along) but not wide enough for a horse (bit hard to fit between large trees).

And some of the walking tracks lead to vertical / nearly vertical cliff faces....no good trying to get the horse to go up there!!  :-)

Horse have their place in land searches, but I don't think this was one of them.

Pip

[bajdas]

Maybe its because they were located, so a relief deployment of crews was not required at dawn...

Not all metropolitan SES Units were deployed to the search either..

It was good to see two local CFS brigades deployed as well..
.........................
From: http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23312101-5006301,00.html

FOUR French-Canadian students lost in Morialta Conservation Park walked more than 12km before finding a house last night and calling police.
Police retrieved the quartet, three boys and a girl all aged 16, just after 8pm from the house in Gully Rd, Montacute.

Police and SES volunteers applauded as the students hugged worried teachers and the billet families they were staying with on their return.

The students' supervising teacher from Rochebelle School in Quebec Mario Lamontange said he was relieved to have the teenagers back safe.

"It's one of the best feelings in my life right now," he said.

"We were very fortunate tonight.

"They (the students) are very much relieved and very tired, exhausted and they want to talk to their parents."

The students, started the walk at 10.30am and were due back with the group of 40 student at 1.20pm. They were all wearing T-shirts and shorts.

A major search effort involving Police, SES volunteers, search dogs and the Rescue One helicopter was launched after the alarm was raised when the students hadn't returned within a couple of hours.

While rescuers were conducting their search, the group of teenagers walked out of the conservation park and into the Adelaide foothills looking for a house so they could contact emergency services, stopping only for water and rests.

When they found the house in Montacute the owner of the house let them, contacted police and fed them while they waited.

Sen-Sgt Scott Denny said police were pleased with the end result but warned it could have been worse.

"Given the fact that they're international students that aren't familiar with the area and given today's heat we could have been looking at some dehydration if it had have gone any longer," he said.

"But a very successful result in the end."

The four teenagers are expected to meet up with their classmates tomorrow before flying out of Adelaide on Wednesday.
............................

[jaff]

Just a question , with no intended implying behind it , why wouldn't the local CFS's Athelstone,Montacute,Cherryville and Norton Summit ,who must be very familiar with the park as they border on it, have been one of the first responders ? .Their knowledge of the terrain ,access tracks and having suitable vehicles close at hand , i would have thought , would of had them amongst the first called!

Cheers Jaff

[chook]

"oh and for this new TRK whats the point in changing if its still not going to line up with the rest of the nation if your changing something to fall into line with other states doesn't it make sense so have the same training not having 8 different ways"
The new TRK is the National Package - developed by the West Australians, tweaked & piloted by the Victorians & all we need to do is add some SA bits e.g. payed officer is to be involved when a search is activated etc.
Not sure who has been pulling your chain but, the facts are that all of the new TRK's except Map Reading & Navigation are from interstate & modified here to fit our modus operandi :-D. Map reading & Navigation was fully developed here, this was a long & involved project, so unless there isn't an interstate package it won't happen again! (he says hopefully!).
Wait until you see it before passing judgement as with all of the other TRK's people have found that they are far better than what we had previously & you will get more out of them e.g RCR(originally NSW),Induction(NSW), Map reading(a number of successful courses & happy students),General Rescue (NSW Under going a special pilot in East region soon & has been trialled in central waiting for release).
One of the most important things to remember is for units to train as per the TRK, instead of developing there own stuff loosely based on the subject matter. Anyway have patience as in my humble opinion the new Land search is a good course :-D.
As for those CFS units you mentioned Jaff, great idea are they qualified as land searchers? If not then NO they would not be considered as first responders but can assist qualified land search teams by intergrating with said teams (as general searchers under supervision). I have seen ad hoc searches conducted by the unqualified turn to filtered very fast & any clues that may have been around destroyed because people have stomped all over them! This includes what is termed "FAST" searches, it is far better to follow the process get a SAPOL SARMAC on site, work out the numbers & types of resources required & then get the job happening! As like anything there is a process that needs to be followed, sometimes what happens is people (local SAPOL, CFS, Locals & dare I say it even local SES units), race off & try & conduct a search without following the process & then decide to follow the process after several hours have past :-( By then the clues have gone cold, the target/s have had a chance to move further etc, etc.
I'm sorry if I'm about to offend some people but the "cowboy" days are gone, correct procedures, training, equipment, people etc must be used ever time, otherwise when it all goes to the coroners court, those who decided not to follow the process will be on there own! (Which happened last year!).
Finally it is the responsibility of SAPOL to arrange & conduct Land searches in this & every other state in Australia - in this state Star group is the section that controls the above. So if you think that the way SA conducts land searches then the matter needs to be bought to their attention :wink:
Sorry about the long reply but training & Landsearch in particular is a passion of mine, so the more I can help this state become more professional in this area before I go the happier I will be :-D (not saying that we aren't, but we can always do better!)
cheers         

[bajdas]

Just a question , with no intended implying behind it , why wouldn't the local CFS's Athelstone,Montacute,Cherryville and Norton Summit ,who must be very familiar with the park as they border on it, have been one of the first responders ? .Their knowledge of the terrain ,access tracks and having suitable vehicles close at hand , i would have thought , would of had them amongst the first called!

Cheers Jaff

Fully agree, along with Eastern Suburbs SES which is the local Unit.

I would assume though that if you have too many  people (eg 5 SES units & 2 CFS brigades @ 10 people each = 70 volunteers + DEH + SAPOL + SAAS + paid staff), it is damn hard to keep track of who is doing what to prevent the 'hurry, hurry, wait while we find you a job' syndrome.

Which I think (or hope) is the reason why some metro SES Units were not deployed & were held in case fresh crews were required at dawn.

In seriousness though, how many of the Brigades mentioned have been bushwalking & have had some search or map reading/navigation training ?

PS. Majority of the metro SES crews have local knowledge the parks and reserves in the Adelaide Hills. Search training and bush walking has been conducted in the parks.

[Dave O]

Police only called for assistance once their 2 choppers come up empty handed...
Montacute & NS were called pretty much straight away and Cherryville were requested by CFS members but not sure if they rolled to it..

I would assume though that if you have too many  people (eg 5 SES units & 2 CFS brigades @ 10 people each = 70 volunteers + DEH + SAPOL + SAAS + paid staff), it is damn hard to keep track of who is doing what to prevent the 'hurry, hurry, wait while we find you a job' syndrome.

STAR had it run really well
17 search teams in total, all deployed within an hour, which is roughly one deployed every three minutes...
My team arrived and was sent out within 10 or so minutes, very different to the usual hurry up and wait, so it was very well planned and tracked

[bajdas]

STAR had it run really well
17 search teams in total, all deployed within an hour, which is roughly one deployed every three minutes...
My team arrived and was sent out within 10 or so minutes, very different to the usual hurry up and wait, so it was very well planned and tracked

17 search teams of 6 people per team = 107 searchers on the ground. Not bad for volunteers that get accused of being 'toooo slow'      :wink:  :roll:

[6739264]

...why wouldn't the local CFS's ... have been one of the first responders ?

Why take resources offline for things that they are not trained to do? Perhaps tap personnel for their local knowledge but thats about it. Its not a Fire Service job, let the SES have some fun :)

As for sesroadcrashrescue, you're idiot mate. Use your head from time to time - it does come in handy.

[chook]

All I can say well done to all - Objectives achieved, everyone (well almost everyone :wink: ) is happy. No bad publicity - great job!
cheers

[Pipster]

The kids actually walked to the edge of the park, and went for help at the nearest house...which happened to be a CFS member, who was at the search..lucky his wife was home!  :-)

[bittenyakka]

Can i ask what is actauly taught in a land search course? i may be ignorant but when looking for somone/thing as long as it is done in a ordered, calm and measuarble pattern won't that work?

thanks

[Firefrog]

Yep - Done the course not the slightest bit of rocket science. Basic Map reading compass work or GPS and walk in a line.

Bit more expertise required to coordinate the whole thing but not hard.....

[chook]

Definitely not Rocket science but very easy to stuff it up!
Searchers & the people they are looking for have been lost due to simple mistakes.
And there is far more than walking in a line - its like me saying "fire fighting is easy put water on to fire easy"
However its not a hard course by a long way and the new one is easier - however it takes a lot of discipline so that important clues are not missed or destroyed!
And working out the time frame for survival, search areas, resources can get complicated.
In areas that don't have SES units or those who are CFS rescue should at least do the Landsearch course & have at least someone qualified to land search team leader.
Cheers

[jaff]

Chook ,what are the sort of clues, that could be over looked or corrupted ,by inexperienced search crews in a public space like Morialta?  Again this is not a stir or a shot ,just curiosity about something that on face value appears to be  a fairly simple logistical scenario. Hence why im just a baggy arsed firefighter?

Cheers Jaff

[safireservice]

Maybe those with a problem should ring the MFS comms centre and ask why they responded the said CFS brigades?
1908870 18:47:58 03-03-08   MFS: *CFSRES INC052 03/03/08 18:47,RESPOND Rescue Search,NORTON SUMMIT RD,NORTON SUMMIT MAP 121 B 4 TG126,BACK SES TO RESCUE AT RV CENTRE P2,NORT00
This page looks like the SES asked for the CFS?

[chook]

Not taken as a shot Jaff, I will give you some examples:-
1) we tracked & found an at risk old woman by firstly following her foot prints & then later a blood trail on reeds (the first clue was dismissed by a less experienced team!).
2) we were trying to find a weapon used in a murder - however the foot prints left be the alledged murderer were contaminated by the initial response - further the scent trail couldn't be followed by the dog.
3) followed & located another alledged murderers camp by following footprints and some discreet questioning by the SAPOL officer attached to our team lead to the apprehension of the individual.
4) During one training course one team actually found $70 in a very public place!
I could sight others but I think you get the picture.
You would be surprised what individuals leave behind, when we conduct the course we show the students what to look for & how to discount old/nonrelevant clues.
And I have unfortunately marked students as NYC if they can't remain focused, contaminate incident scenes or are not physically capable. However there is a place for the non qualified - mixed in with competent persons. More eyes the better!
And I'm not saying every team placed in the field are "Guru's" but they do have the competency and hopefully the new course will remove some of the "nice to know" & there will be more practical exercises to re-enforce the core skills.
Anyway Jaff thanks for the interest,  honestly it's refreshing that someone is actually interested in something we do that doesn't involve power tools :-D
And I actually conducted a basic intro to Landsearch for CFS people & they were good (found all of the chockies :wink: ) So hopefully your service will allow our service to train you guys if you see a need & our service will let us do it!
Again thanks Jaff cheers

[6739264]

I would imagine the same basic principles are applied to both land search and not destroying evidence in a fire/mva incident.

You don't park you truck on the area of origin, nor do you remove all debris from the scene of a major accident, so why would it be any different from a land search?

[chook]

Yes you are right, but it is more than that (however your fire investigators would know what I'm talking about). Its searching for clues & using them to establish whether the target (or thing), is or was in the area you are searching.
Those who were ever in the Army would recognise some of the training as a scaled down version of patroling & tracking. Whats the old saying? seeing the wood for the trees? And its not just looking either its using all of the senses (believe it or not), using the training provided & experience.
Its also about being physically and mentally prepared, having the right equipment etc.
I guess I can't really say any more (& sadly can't attach the learners guide :-( ). So I guess a look at the AEM on Landsearch will help.
Anyway I hope thats answered some of your questions. cheers

[jaff]

Thanks chook , the search scenario is obviouly not just a logistical problem.
But hey chook wouldnt every problem be better solved with power tools :-D

Cheers Jaff

[chook]

Yep your not wrong :-D

[OldOne]

Hi All,  I have produced a new compilation video from the Adelaide TV News.

The TV footage covering "080304 Morialta search 04 Mar08" from Tuesday night's
news.   Both SES and CFS members attended.
The video is a 21.3 MB file in Divx (mpeg4) format and runs about 4:53
minutes.  The Web download location for the file is ftp://video:news@sesfiles.dyndns.org and pick the file to FTP.

It is also available for viewing on YouTube at
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eniEpzthCNg

Over the 4 news feeds it looks like both SES and CFS received about equal coverage but some reporters still do not know who is who with their voice overs. !

Cheers
Arno.