State CFS Talkgroups etc

[Hicksflat14]

As yet the policy for all this is still up in the air. I don't think the actual decision is made till early next month.

Pumprescue your outburst in regards to duty officers is puzzling. If a group wants to do it that way then why shouldn't they? Indeed you are able to see it running "heaps well" as both the Sturt Group and the Kyeema Group do it.

The groups that do this are hardly stuck back in the 60's. Indeed its modern technology of GRNs, mobile phones etc that allow them to have a moving group base. In fact a command car has more radios than either a station or a group base in it.

Why would you have an individual respond all the way to the station to take comms when you can do as much, if not more, sooner, from a command car and from sitting in their own driveway? I think your the one thinking back in the 60's man.

You say that they would struggle for 100 calls. As an example, Sturt Group which has been doing this for the past 4+ years has clocked up well over 300 calls for each of those years. Probably in total over 1000 calls done this way. In fact the number of calls (higher than it was in the 60's) is one of reasons for going for a duty officer.
You then proceed to say that the CFSHQ should tell them how it is and yet in the next post you say that "If my station isn't open I'll continue to do comms though Adelaide Fire". NO, you should take your own medicine and do it exactly how CFSHQ tell you to do it. Trust me they aren't going to be telling you to do comms on 111 because if you get anymore than a handful of brigades doing it and the whole thing will fall apart STATE WIDE for everyone...Well it'll fall apart for everyone in the state except those whose duty officer has notified MFS by phone and are working independently on their own group TG.

Oh and let me point out that when CFSHQ "told how it is" with the move to Adelaide Fire they said NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Now you are "told how it is" GOING TO CHANGE. I wouldn't trust a thing they told me.

With regards to your comment on duty officers been heaps reliable, yes they are. You then say "If my station isn't open"... oh dear, not even your station sounds that reliable. You should look into that before having a go at the idea of having a duty officer.

"Aren't these guys due to retire" Well if they retire from work they'll have more time to be duty officers wont they, or are you talking about retiring from the CFS? In either case aren't you going to retire one day?

It takes decades of dedication to become a Group Officer. I think most GO's have more experience than the CFS staff members. The loss of such experience from any group is a loss for the CFS.

PS I think you'll find that the GO's of one of the groups you may be referring to have many years left in them both with the CFS and MFS. They also have strong backing from their group for their position on this.

Hicks

[jaff]

hicksflat14 telling it like it is!this has been an excellent discusion with some great debate.
no its not leaving much time to implement before the fire season thats why the changes proposed have been subtle and they havent reinvented the wheel       
                jaff         

[OMGWTF]

just one thing..


if we go to ONE talkgroup for acknowledgements and mobilisations of resources.. then what happens when everyone statewide is monitoring it and we start to get some action... first few transmissions, and every tower statewide will load up and crash the system.

wasnt this one of the problems that came out of the wangary fires?

[Zippy]

SA GRN 101 - hopefully everyones done GRN training already...therefore ignore this post

a tower frequency is only used when someone pushes the PTT..(the several beeps that are heard is the loading processing.)..putting all the radios that are on the specific talk group onto a frequency at the nearest tower to them.   So yes...if:

Port lincolns, Adelaide Fire, Murray Bridge are on GRN 124...IDLE....then Murray bridge PTT's to Adelaide Fire...THREE towers would be used..but only one frequency from EACH tower would be used.  This is the problem, and maybe why they have the CFS regions on different GRN channels.

Its best to turn off station radios, portable's and appliance's etc when not in use to make the system work properly elsewhere 

something else to note: you may notice that GRN 124 goes out of range if you go far enough out of Region 1.  i believe that the "GRN system Regions" has a part in this.

[SA Firey]

Something else to note: you may notice that GRN 124 goes out of range if you go far enough out of Region 1.(Quote)

Yes that is correct and GRN124 does not work at Karoonda, but TG111 & 112 does

As the fire danger season is almost starting it would be a good idea for all brigades and groups to get their comms right to minimise the chit chat of the past, and as we all know the real test at Adelaide Fire has'nt started yet.

There are rumours of only monitoring one State talkgroup but I cant see that working very well during Fire Danger Season.

Any brigade or station not involved in an incident should not have their radios on anyway,monitoring another brigades/groups talkgroup as this ties up the GRN sites and is monitored by the NOC, so they know who YOU are.

[Zippy]

If it does all go to GRN-111, I can see R1-HQ taking comm's for Region 1 on really bad days anyway lol. (as in specific times where 124 is operational).

Tho you will still have to ring adelaide fire to confirm pager msg.

Adelaide Fire monitoring less talk groups would clean up the Metro GRN towers

During the heavy day of winter weather in early july...there were moments when all you got was "On-Queue" Tone on the GRN radio.  Had to use VHF to contact station at the worst case.

GRN's a great system, but it will neva be perfect....lets be glad we're prevented to making Portable to Portable private calls

[Alan (Big Al)]

Is there a set non emergency no. for adelaide fire?? we were told it was 841290xx ( didn't think it appropriate to put up the full no.) i have called this number to acknowledge page but they have answered it as an emergency line!

If anyone has a differnet non emergency no. can they PM me with it thanks.

[Zippy]

i believe that is the right number for calling MFS comm's directly (from my *sometimes* unreliable memory ). ive rang them up a few times...quite happy to answer...but remember its a recorded conversation (beeps..in the background).   

[Zippy]

there can also be a delay in them answering cause they might be in the middle of dispatching a group of met trucks

[pumprescue]

As yet the policy for all this is still up in the air. I don't think the actual decision is made till early next month.

Pumprescue your outburst in regards to duty officers is puzzling. If a group wants to do it that way then why shouldn't they? Indeed you are able to see it running "heaps well" as both the Sturt Group and the Kyeema Group do it.

The groups that do this are hardly stuck back in the 60's. Indeed its modern technology of GRNs, mobile phones etc that allow them to have a moving group base. In fact a command car has more radios than either a station or a group base in it.

Why would you have an individual respond all the way to the station to take comms when you can do as much, if not more, sooner, from a command car and from sitting in their own driveway? I think your the one thinking back in the 60's man.

You say that they would struggle for 100 calls. As an example, Sturt Group which has been doing this for the past 4+ years has clocked up well over 300 calls for each of those years. Probably in total over 1000 calls done this way. In fact the number of calls (higher than it was in the 60's) is one of reasons for going for a duty officer.
You then proceed to say that the CFSHQ should tell them how it is and yet in the next post you say that "If my station isn't open I'll continue to do comms though Adelaide Fire". NO, you should take your own medicine and do it exactly how CFSHQ tell you to do it. Trust me they aren't going to be telling you to do comms on 111 because if you get anymore than a handful of brigades doing it and the whole thing will fall apart STATE WIDE for everyone...Well it'll fall apart for everyone in the state except those whose duty officer has notified MFS by phone and are working independently on their own group TG.

Oh and let me point out that when CFSHQ "told how it is" with the move to Adelaide Fire they said NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Now you are "told how it is" GOING TO CHANGE. I wouldn't trust a thing they told me.

With regards to your comment on duty officers been heaps reliable, yes they are. You then say "If my station isn't open"... oh dear, not even your station sounds that reliable. You should look into that before having a go at the idea of having a duty officer.

"Aren't these guys due to retire" Well if they retire from work they'll have more time to be duty officers wont they, or are you talking about retiring from the CFS? In either case aren't you going to retire one day?

It takes decades of dedication to become a Group Officer. I think most GO's have more experience than the CFS staff members. The loss of such experience from any group is a loss for the CFS.

PS I think you'll find that the GO's of one of the groups you may be referring to have many years left in them both with the CFS and MFS. They also have strong backing from their group for their position on this.

Hicks

This is speaking from experiance, ever tried getting a radio log from Sturt duty officer, "oh sorry, didn't write anything down"

I am trying to get though to people, why do we have such an abortion of a system, we are all over the place, people doing whatever they like, its more like Dad's Army than it has ever been, at least Captain Mainwaring followed orders.

[bajdas]

I know I am the outsider here and most probably missing some of the history.....

My understanding is that Adelaide Fire was only ever to do 'Call Receipt & Dispatch'. Not Operations or Resource Tracking or anything else.

This will transfer to SACAD when it arrives. Again, just answer the telephone call & set the pager off as per business rules. Nothing more...

I understand the GRN consoles and CFS contract operators are still at CFS SCC.

So wouldn't the CFS SCC or Regional CC's activate with Operations staff on busy or high risk days. Both were doing this last Fire Danger season with CFS Region One doing the resource tracking.

Other than the 'changing pains' to the system, am I missing something...

[Zippy]

I understand the GRN consoles and CFS contract operators are still at CFS SCC.

So wouldn't the CFS SCC or Regional CC's activate with Operations staff on busy or high risk days. Both were doing this last Fire Danger season with CFS Region One doing the resource tracking.

I believe this is how it will be happening...briefly outlined in the "FAQ" given to each brigade.

But i acutally hope EACH region has the capability for this to occur.  Thing to remember is that the Wangary fire did not occur in Region 1 (of course Mt Osmond did tho).

[rescue5271]

By having one GRN channel to talk to adelaide fire will cause the GRN to crash when a large lightning storm comes this way how will the system cope with overload from groups talking to SHQ...Why not have 3 state GRN channels??

[6739264]

Isn't the simple way to run things to have say, 4 GRN talkgroups monitored by adelaide fire. Say, GRN 100 is SAMFS, 101 is region 1, 102 is region 2 and 3, 103 is region 4 and 5 and 104 is region 6 and SES. As ALL of the talkgroups would be monitored, if you get no response on your given talkgroup, try another. This way when there is a blow up day in a certain area the whole state doesnt get screwed in terms of GRN.

Now all we need is GRN simplex on the fireground...

[bajdas]

By having one GRN channel to talk to adelaide fire will cause the GRN to crash when a large lightning storm comes this way how will the system cope with overload from groups talking to SHQ...Why not have 3 state GRN channels??

How !!! Unless people are monitoring the Adelaide Fire talkgroup to 'see what is happening' then GRN will not cope at anytime. If you are not responding to an incident then I would hope for all GRN users sake, that radios are switched off.

You are just acknowledging the page with Adelaide Fire and then you are going to another GRN talkgroup that everyone in your local area will be using for resource tracking & operations control. This local talkgroup (maybe Region wide) will not be monitored by Adelaide Fire & thus will not impact statewide GRN resources.

Thus you are using one talkgroup in your local area. Unless the incidents increase then Operations might wish to utilise an extra GRN talkgroup to separate radio traffic.

If that is the case, then Operations base can acknowledge the page via telephone thus not using a GRN resource.

Yes multiple incidents statewide can make things busy, but it can work.

** please note I have not seen any CFS documentation so the above might not be planned ** My thoughts & opinions only **

[Zippy]

Isn't the simple way to run things to have say, 4 GRN talkgroups monitored by adelaide fire. Say, GRN 100 is SAMFS, 101 is region 1, 102 is region 2 and 3, 103 is region 4 and 5 and 104 is region 6 and SES. As ALL of the talkgroups would be monitored, if you get no response on your given talkgroup, try another. This way when there is a blow up day in a certain area the whole state doesnt get screwed in terms of GRN.

Talkgroups wont necessarily BREAK the GRN...its the amount of them being monitored by the Control channel at each tower which may.  And when all 4-12 frequencies are being used for TX/RX...thats when bottlenecking will happen.

if  10 stations were active throughout the state...and adelaide fire broadcasted to them on GRN 111...the nearest towers to all of them would have one frequency LOCKED for that transmission.   Then you have SAAS talking,  then SAPOL talking, then DEH.....thats when a 4 frequency Tower would simply say  SORRY YOUVE BEEN PLACED IN QUEUE, "Insert jazz music" (FLAMES EVERYWHERE),  then u finally get through.

thats why we have GRN 115   which i believe is designed to tell the control channel to kick who ever is on one freq...and lock 115 in as a Emergency broadcast.

Now all we need is GRN simplex on the fireground...

Equals Statewide Tower upgrades...which would be great!

[Crankster 34]

Adelaide Fire monitoring less talk groups would clean up the Metro GRN towers

Would make no difference, Adelaide Fire use Centracom consoles which have a direct connection into the backbone of the network through the NOCC. Same with SAPOL, SAAS, CFS and SES, as well as a few other agencies that use GRN.

They do have the ability to direct connect to a GRN site should the wide area trunking become unuseable though, in that case only the users on the particular site that the Centracom is connected to would hear the comcen. That is why you see the Yagi antennas on top of the comcens, they are pointed at key GRN sites to still provide some coverage to particular areas on a single talkgroup.

Now all we need is GRN simplex on the fireground...

Have to disagree with you there chief.

UHF simplex at the lower end of 400mhz is a fickle beast, it doesn't fare well with smoke, wet pine forests or dense fog. We had our fun with it in the early days of GRN and quite frankly it sucked.

VHF for fireground is the way to go, just give us a few more portables and ditch the crappy speaker mikes that come with the Icoms.

[bajdas]

Now all we need is GRN simplex on the fireground...

Equals Statewide Tower upgrades...which would be great!

GRN Simplex does not use a GRN repeater tower...this is SES talkgroups C30 and C31. They have been operational on all SES GRN radios since the install of the system.

[Zippy]

UHF simplex at the lower end of 400mhz is a fickle beast, it doesn't fare well with smoke, wet pine forests or dense fog. We had our fun with it in the early days of GRN and quite frankly it sucked.

VHF for fireground is the way to go, just give us a few more portables and ditch the crappy speaker mikes that come with the Icoms.

hehe, this caused as much contraversy as the new SAAS uniforms if not more ey...

[6739264]

Adelaide Fire monitoring less talk groups would clean up the Metro GRN towers

Now all we need is GRN simplex on the fireground...

Have to disagree with you there chief.

UHF simplex at the lower end of 400mhz is a fickle beast, it doesn't fare well with smoke, wet pine forests or dense fog. We had our fun with it in the early days of GRN and quite frankly it sucked.

VHF for fireground is the way to go, just give us a few more portables and ditch the crappy speaker mikes that come with the Icoms.

Thats odd. I hate VHF and have been in the position where you can stand at one end of a house and can't talk to someone at the other end. GRN Simplex on the other hand, I've found very few issues with, especially around smoke, heat and water.

[Hicksflat14]

This is speaking from experiance

Experience wise in this regard I think I trump you several hundred times over. That aside you have the belief that MFS "log" things. They just undertake call receipt and dispatch. They don't log and they don't do resource tracking. They take the call page it out and if no one acknowledges receipt they page the next nearest brigade. All they care about is the page acknowledgement so they can tick it off the running sheet. The only "logging" thats going on is that its claimed that the state/regional talkgroups get recorded, but good luck getting the recording or anyone to listen back to the recording for you. I have however heard recordings (MP3) of the Sturt Group talkgroup. If I'm not mistaken, they record both their talkgroups at the base continuously.

"oh sorry, didn't write anything down"

Well it probably wasn't that important then. I think you will also find that as soon as any station/base is under pressure logging is amongst the first casualty.

I am trying to get though to people, why do we have such an abortion of a system, we are all over the place, people doing whatever they like

You mean like you doing comms on 111 as your threatening to do when you shouldn't be?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, I'm just saying that given the situation in which groups have been placed, having a duty officer is amongst the best solutions going.

[Zippy]

Experience wise in this regard I think I trump you several hundred times over. That aside you have the belief that MFS "log" things. They just undertake call receipt and dispatch. They don't log and they don't do resource tracking. They take the call page it out and if no one acknowledges receipt they page the next nearest brigade.

That is true to a point.  All they require is the information they need to fill in Bom's and they do require a Mobile time.  My belief is that Bom's has been made to work with Criimson and Airs, but this ive only heard from other people.  So they do log detail,  just to what is related to dispatching.

[Alan (Big Al)]

Our 24P went off line for 8 hours a couple of months ago for servicing we "logged" it off with comms as being offline and an MVA occurred that we would have been required for back up but it went to MFS instead as it should have, but then our truck was logged back on with comms at 5pm as being operational and 45 mins later an MVA with 3 trapped happened 5 kms from us and SES and MFS were responded as the call taker didn't know our truck was back online??

A bit of a breakdown there!!!

[pumprescue]

This is speaking from experiance

Experience wise in this regard I think I trump you several hundred times over. That aside you have the belief that MFS "log" things. They just undertake call receipt and dispatch. They don't log and they don't do resource tracking. They take the call page it out and if no one acknowledges receipt they page the next nearest brigade. All they care about is the page acknowledgement so they can tick it off the running sheet. The only "logging" thats going on is that its claimed that the state/regional talkgroups get recorded, but good luck getting the recording or anyone to listen back to the recording for you. I have however heard recordings (MP3) of the Sturt Group talkgroup. If I'm not mistaken, they record both their talkgroups at the base continuously.

"oh sorry, didn't write anything down"

Well it probably wasn't that important then. I think you will also find that as soon as any station/base is under pressure logging is amongst the first casualty.

I am trying to get though to people, why do we have such an abortion of a system, we are all over the place, people doing whatever they like

You mean like you doing comms on 111 as your threatening to do when you shouldn't be?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, I'm just saying that given the situation in which groups have been placed, having a duty officer is amongst the best solutions going.

Righto , when was the last time you went to comms and found out how it actually happens, obviously about 15 years ago, all radio transmissions are logged in CRIIMSON, I have asked for a log only in the last week and they faxed it to me, had all the times and sitreps, sooo, that says to me that they are indeed logging everything, but as always, I am happy to be proven wrong. We took a tour of the commcen to see how it really happens, and whilst they are still learning, they do in fact get quite involved in the CFS jobs. I can see why they get frustrated though, boy oh boy do we woffle !! "nuff nuff 24 out on 30 k run" cutting over the top of incident traffic, good one! So they are strongly pushing for the smaller amount of TG's. Its not anyone's fault out there, you don't know someone is talking, but you will with the new arrangement.

As for your point "It probably wasn't that important" in regards to logging, you deserve a slap around the head !!!!  I bet the first 10 mins of Ash Wednesday wasn't that important, or Wangary, or the MVA where 3 people died, until the coroners inquest, you can't have been involved in many decent incidents if you sprout forth that woffle, my god man, what are you thinking !! Logging radio transmissions is vital, you or anyone can't tell me otherwise.

When did I threaten to go to 111, I am still doing it the way it was done with SOCC, unlike Sturt and Kyeema groups who go against everything CFS ever asks of them, so don't tell me I am going against the trend, I am actually doing it the way CFS has asked.

I really wish people would stop thinking they know , and actually find out, I bother to go and find out, I bother to read memo's from CFS. I still have my opnions on what would be a better option, but we will still be back in the dark ages after I post this, and the way the state's group officers carry on, will most likely be for some time to come.

We still can't seem to get over this ownership and power trip, it isn't the Sturt Fire Service, Kyeema Fire Service, Heysen Fire Service, Mt Gambier Fire Service, Lucundale Fire Service etc, IT'S the Country Fire Service, much the same way its the Metropolitan Fire Service. Only when people realise this, might we see some change, and that's obviously going to take another generation. Thankfully some of these old group officers are coming to the end of their time............

[Zippy]

"nuff nuff 24 out on 30 k run"

your quite right there....you could actually ring your regional office to put this into the system, instead of distracting the people down at adelaide fire.