State CFS Talkgroups etc

[Pipster]

There was some info that came out of HQ, with a proposal to out the whole state onto 111, instead of being spread across the different regional channels....

Originally, I think it was meant to commence 1st September (?) but that didn't allow for "consultation" and the commencement date was moved a bit later (which I can't remember the date ! )

My Group are still to discuss the issue, so we are staying as per the current arrangements... I suspect many Groups are the same at this time.... although some may have changed...

Pip

[Jimmy_91]

15:17:03 15-09-07 FROM CAPTAIN: BRIGADE ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS @ RESPONSES TO REMAIN ON TG 124 TO "ADELIADE FIRE", TILL FURTHER NOTICE. WILL DISCUSS COMUNICATION BREAKDOWN ON MONDAY NIGHT PRIOR TO TRAINING. CFS Upper Sturt Info

It seems they they are going back to 124 now. Someone must have told them about it though???

[pumprescue]

So many bright idea's coming out at the moment, the reason for consolidating TG's is that at the moment Adelaide fire are running 10 or 11 TG's, which is a bit over the top, and streamlining is needed.

111 will be mobile etc, your local TG's will be just that, for local radio traffic. If a station isn't open you can still book arrived on 111 but chit chat will be on your local TG, there is some big bright idea's from some region 1 group officers that the group duty officer should take comms for every call, but stuff that for a joke, and I can just see it being run heaps well, at least Adelaide Fire log things, but yeah, those region 1 group officers are stuck back in 1960's, and their entire groups would struggle to put 100 calls on the board, chumps. About time CFS told them how it is rather than the other way round, aren't these guys due to retire, I wish they would!!!

[Pipster]

It's actually 9 channels...not 10 or 11....

As for putting everyone on one channel for CRD.. it'll probably work..... when things are quiet.....it'll be a nightmare on a busy day....

The Group Duty Officer thing has come out of getting crews off 124 (in Region 1) and onto their Group channel.... but since many brigades don't have radio operators, there is no point in going to their own channel, with no ability to speak to anyone to log details, arrange extra resources etc...which is where duty officers are being encouraged to take comms.....and act as that resource...

Pip

[pumprescue]

Hmmm, yeah, like I said, duty officers are heaps reliable, always write stuff down, are always in radio range, always have phone range, are actually around.

I forgot, CFS are useless when it comes to radio procedures, and I am in the CFS have been for 15 years, we are embarassing. We have a commcen, use them, god this organisation is frustrating to be in, so many clowns. If my station isn't open I will continue to do comms through Adelaide Fire - they will have to get used to it, and thats the way it should be. Why are so many CFS people against being a professional fire service, its no wonder we can't attract new members.

Maybe we should be renamed Clown Fire Service..............

[jaff]

pumprescue you sound like,you have it all sorted out,maybe next AGM you should stand as a G.O or a D.G.O. after 15 years in the service you should be cherry ripe for the job,yeh I bet you`d sort it tiger!
 

[JC]

I'm some cases it could work having GO's doing comms for quieter groups, but for a busy group like Mawson it would be a nightmare.(Just used mawson as an example, there are plenty of other groups that are just as busy). You have to remember that these guys are also volunteers, the majority have full time jobs to contend with as well.

[pumprescue]

pumprescue you sound like,you have it all sorted out,maybe next AGM you should stand as a G.O or a D.G.O. after 15 years in the service you should be cherry ripe for the job,yeh I bet you`d sort it tiger!
 

Yeah for sure, I plan to win the lottery so I will have all the time in the world to think up ways to give myself more work..........then I will stay in as GO for the next 60 years and not leave until I get forced out.

[Zippy]

The only thing i see lacking with Duty officer's is Local Knowledge as he/she may be from a brigade some distance away from the job.  Which is why i think the Local station to the job should take comm's*...if they dont already.

(*until the job is big enough to open a group base.)

I dont believe it is the job of GO or DGO to take comm's. while they may be OIC, Operational and Logistical Support or Strike Team leader?

[safireservice]

 and I am in the CFS have been for 15 years, we are embarassing. We have a commcen, use them, god this organisation is frustrating to be in, so many clowns.

Maybe we should be renamed Clown Fire Service..............

Well why do you stay then? You always seem to bag the service you represent.

[jaff]

the role of the duty officer taking coms was only envisaged for the time period between the initial page and a station or a group base coming up on air,the responding appliances would still be contacting ADELAIDE FIRE on a yet to be announced channel so that they could still be tracked by CRIMSON before being put on their primary talk group.
while this might be onerous on some groups it still is the easiest (read least changes compared to some of the suggestions put forward)way to handle the transitional period whilst still maintaning a monitoring overwatch,instead of having ADELAIDE FIRE asking you to "hold out"whilst they deal with another channel that you cant hear,or worse still another incident on the same channel
                
                            jaff                                        

                      

[Pipster]

Trouble is, in many areas,there is a lack of radio operators / people willing to do radio..hence no base / station opens....

We are constantly being told to keep off / get off 124 / 111 once we have acknowledged a call....  so we end up with a quandary... go to a anther channel all by yourself, with no one to talk to, remain on 124 / 111 against what HQ are pushing, or use the Group Duty officer.....

It would help immensely, in the recruiting of new radio operators, if CFS actually had a course for it...which I understand is coming...not sure when

Pip

[jaff]

pip
i agree that we need to have a course for comms operators,that would certainly do the job in the long run ,in the interim period though? the group duty officer taking coms until a station or group base opens up is the quick fix.
another solution im hearing is for radio ops from adjoining brigades taking coms (an internal coms brigade sorta)just see how that pans out
                              jaff

[Zippy]

another solution im hearing is for radio ops from adjoining brigades taking coms just see how that pans out

i believe this should already be done, essentially an "SOP".

Trouble is, in many areas,there is a lack of radio operators / people willing to do radio..hence no base / station opens....

We are constantly being told to keep off / get off 124 / 111 once we have acknowledged a call....  so we end up with a quandary... go to a anther channel all by yourself, with no one to talk to, remain on 124 / 111 against what HQ are pushing, or use the Group Duty officer.....

It would help immensely, in the recruiting of new radio operators, if CFS actually had a course for it...which I understand is coming...not sure when

Pip

I would think any of the left over people who responded to the station would think...we need to open the station to take comes for this incident...log on to adelaide fire let appliances know you are open, and take them to the stations primary GRN channel.

In regards to "people lacking experience with comm's"...good idea for a training night.

[alphaone]

Trouble is, in many areas,there is a lack of radio operators / people willing to do radio..hence no base / station opens....

We are constantly being told to keep off / get off 124 / 111 once we have acknowledged a call....  so we end up with a quandary... go to a anther channel all by yourself, with no one to talk to, remain on 124 / 111 against what HQ are pushing, or use the Group Duty officer.....

It would help immensely, in the recruiting of new radio operators, if CFS actually had a course for it...which I understand is coming...not sure when

Pip

I would think any of the left over people who responded to the station would think...we need to open the station to take comes for this incident...log on to adelaide fire let appliances know you are open, and take them to the stations primary GRN channel.

In regards to "people lacking experience with comm's"...good idea for a training night.

I agree with you dezza, in my brigade, we will always try to have a radio opperator at the station. If you are the one left behind at the station, you are automatically the radio opperator, no if's or but's. If we dont have anyone to leave at the station, some one on the truck is asked to log mobile, arrival times etc, and any extra resources will be requested via 093.

[Zippy]

and any extra resources will be requested via 093.

now i can see why having a "STATE Operations" Channel to talk to Adelaide Fire is a good idea...especially if 3 brigades from 3 different regions respond to a callout...and cant hear each other say there mobile...

Once an appliace has logged mobile on the state channel, they with other respond appliances could move to the regional channel...with Adelaide Fire only monitoring  124 when there are appliances on that channel.

I can see comm's turning into the style which MFS use...with Incident channels instead of Group channels.

[bittenyakka]

the idea of adjoining brigades comms operators taking calls is a good idea but mabey give a coms operator a half a group or a few brigades not an entire group

[Zippy]

the idea of adjoining brigades comms operators taking calls is a good idea but mabey give a coms operator a half a group or a few brigades not an entire group

brigades taking comm's wouldnt necessarily be controling a "group"..just the incident they log onto.

so if a second incident were to occur, utilizing the brigades secondary channel would be a good move to separate the incident comm's.  obviously another station would have to take comms for that incident.   

Ive experienced this once where two mva's in our primary area have occured within 30mins,   had to involve another rescue brigade and open the group base for inc #2 for a short time.

[pumprescue]

and any extra resources will be requested via 093.

now i can see why having a "STATE Operations" Channel to talk to Adelaide Fire is a good idea...especially if 3 brigades from 3 different regions respond to a callout...and cant hear each other say there mobile...

Once an appliace has logged mobile on the state channel, they with other respond appliances could move to the regional channel...with Adelaide Fire only monitoring  124 when there are appliances on that channel.

I can see comm's turning into the style which MFS use...with Incident channels instead of Group channels.

Thats exactly what should be happening Dezza, which is how CFA run, they book mobile with Vicfire, arrive with Vicfire, the IC gives sitreps to Vicfire, when appliances leave, they book in with vicfire, and they book back in station with vicfire, so they know they are available, again, Vicfire allocate them a TG to use at the incident but sitreps and upgrades are done back to Vicfire on the state TG. Thats what I am trying to get at, not just coming up on 111 or whatever, and then never speaking to them again and going through the group duty officer, that is frought with danger, didn't we just go through a coronial, people seem to forget very quickly. Its not like we have that many brigades, with all the brigades CFA have, they run very well, even the 1 call a year brigades can manage to book mobile arrived and back in station with Vicfire. Listen to the CFA some time, you will be impressed !!

[Zippy]

i do intend on finding a scanner feed for Vicfire

but remember in all of this discussion....CFS SOP is CFS SOP .   

[ltdan]

15:17:03 15-09-07 FROM CAPTAIN: BRIGADE ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS @ RESPONSES TO REMAIN ON TG 124 TO "ADELIADE FIRE", TILL FURTHER NOTICE. WILL DISCUSS COMUNICATION BREAKDOWN ON MONDAY NIGHT PRIOR TO TRAINING. CFS Upper Sturt Info

It seems they they are going back to 124 now. Someone must have told them about it though???

Maybe, I can answer your questions.

I recived a fax from the Group indicating the changes to CRD.  As I was unaware of the latest outcomes and problems which has been arising from GO & DGO's in Region 1, I was only following the document which indicated that on the 15th Sep @ 0900hrs we will now use TG 111.

Later in the afternoon I got a phonecall from a DGO indicating that this was not occuring and that we are to remain on TG 124.

As the original document was from Comcen, I was only following the document.

From what I have been told from the DGO is that until a resolution can be resolved about comms we will not be moving over to TG 111.

My opinion:

Go to TG 111, then go to your TG and if you need resources etc go back to TG 111.  Adelaide Fire are not going to note your communications if you give them a sitrep so you might as well go to your own TG and document it yourself if a station is not open.  Not hard to do I think.

The interesting issue will be when something goes wrong and their is a please explain to the minister.  But if you are a good OIC for a 1st alarm incident you should be ok.

I understand that this goes against the SOP's but at the moment with the CRD amalgamation we are not following several SOP's & COSO's

CAPT

[Darius]

As I was unaware of the latest outcomes and problems which has been arising from GO & DGO's in Region 1

that proposal from HQ affects the whole state so is being debated by each regional volunteer management committee, it will then go to the next COAC for voting, this is planned for 8th Oct so nothing will happen before then at the earliest (which incidentally does not leave much time for implementation before the start of the fire season in some areas!).

[Zippy]

nice new consultation process 

dont think it will be too much of a drama for the state....its merely just a single channel to log appliance mobile.  In terms of acknowledging pager messages, a duty officer system does work there, but only that responsibility i think.

IDEA

To solve a whole state being on One Channel for every type of call, maybe this idea would work:

111 - Station: Acknowledgements > once logged move to 113
112 - Appliances: Mobile > once logged move to 113
113 - GENERAL INFO > Station open for comms, Incident Channel Allocation, More resources required, etc

10 Incident Channels each for region 1,2
6  Incident channels each for region 3,4,5,6

[Firefrog]

This topic has been split out of the interesting paging thread to keep things tidy and provide a better place for the topic to be discussed.

[littlejohn]

In a similar fashion to what is proposed, R5 used to all respond on the regional talkgroup, then change to group TGs. It didn't work - the towers got clogged during busy periods and traffic was not getting through.

Now the page is acknowledged on the regional TG, then all comms (should) be conducted on group TGs. Including appliance responding etc. That way, neighbouring groups at least know if there's a job on next door which may require assistance, but otherwise it limits the grn usage to a couple of towers.

This may not be such an issue (I don't know) in R1 where each tower presumably has more frequencies.

However we already have problems on busy days in this neck of the woods with towers blocking up. We really don't need to know what appliances are doing a couple of groups away, much less in the next region, and more importantly it will compromise our own communications.

Fortunately our group bases open pretty quickly in most instances (R5 in general), so the groups are used to being self sufficient in that manner.


Frankly I can't see much changing. Gary Bau indicated recently that it is fine for a group base/GO to monitor appliance movements, and notify Adelaide Fire (so as I see it, once a handful of appliances are on the go, Adelaide fire will be contact and told 'x,y,z appliances on the go').

So really, R1 can keep using Adelaide fire as they do, the other regions can keep operating as they do and once again we've got different ways across the state!