SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?

[Darius]

Well it was just a quick summary of the major points (eg. I didn't bother mentioning things like that CFS staff will no longer be able to divert their phones to SOC and use it as an answering service).  But find out all the gory details (that have been thought of), and ask all the tough questions, tomorrow night.

[Hicksflat14]

Might pay to not have too much speculation yet, all shall be revealed (hopefully) at the transition meetings planned.

Your still running the "all will be revealed line". Are you trying to buy CFSHQ some time to allow them to work out what they are going to do?
Trying to make it sound like its been all thought out and well planned? We all know how well CFS organise and plan ahead...

Moving operations to MFS has been planned for a long time at ministerial level, but after that the CFS has been making it up as they go.
 
I remember not too long ago you were saying that all will be revealed and the SOCC isn't going to MFS, also that MFS couldn't do all the things that the SOCC does so it will never happen. So I ask you, were you just playing dumb or are you, as I suspect, in the dark yourself and just trying to sound in the know by stating all will be revealed.

You know as little as, or less, than everyone else.

[RescueHazmat]

Are the new MFS Comms peep's (ex. CFS SOCC staff) already in MFS comms? .. Heard some new voices today on the radio...

[mack]

lol HF14 - i think u read into everything too much... i was merely making that statement that Darius had the basic idea of it in his post, and that if people actualyl want to know exactly what the current story is, then attend the meetings.


dont be such a tool mate.

rescuehazmat - noone has transfered yet, the transition is meant to take place on 1st July.

[Mike]

First post is a long one....
The following is taken from the Info sheet we were given last night:

1. Why does this move need to occur?

The SACFS will be transitioning to a computer aided dispatch system in 2008/2009 call SACAD. The SACAD terminals will be located in 3 purpose built CRD centres in Adelaide (SAPOL, SAAS and SAFECOM - CFS, SES and SES).
The SAFECOM CRD is located at the MFS COMCEN (call sign 'Adelaide Fire').
Should any communications path or equipment fail there are either redundant communications paths or contingency plans that will keep the SAFECOM CRD centre functioning so the community will always have a response to their request for help.

2. What will change from the way the community rings CFS brigades?

There will be very little noticeable change from the way emergency calls are handled at the moment. The public will continue to ring 000 or their local brigade number and the call is answered by the ALERTS system with one member of the ALERTS being MFS COMCEN (Adelaide Fire).

3. Will brigade alarm numbers change?

No - Not in the transfer of CRD to MFS COMCEN, but 000 will be promoted to the community as the only means of alerting brigades prior to the full transition to SACAD in 2008/2009.

4. How will brigades contact the MFS COMCEN by radio?

As you do now, via your Regional Operations talkgroup with the callsign 'Adelaide Fire'

5. There will be a direct number to contact MFS COMCEN (will leave this to be communicated back via your reps)

6. Who answers the ALERTS calls in Adelaide?

These will be answered by MFS COMCEN operators, and with a further 5 CFS OCO's transfering to the MFS COMCEN there will be significant "CFS expertise" in the CRD for CFS incidents.

7. How many operators will be able to take emergency calls?

There will be a minimum of 4 operators with a further 2 operators available at a moments notice and the CFS Communications Co-ordinator will also be located at the MFS COMCEN.

8. Who will send out the brigade response pager message?

The MFS COMCEN operators in the same way the SOCC does now, the prefix of the pager message will change from SHQ: to MFS:

9. Who will brigades contact to acknowledge their response pager messages?

The MFS COMCEN operators will usually obtain response page acknowledgement during the ALERTS conference. If the vrigade has been direct paged (no ALERTS conference) the brigades will ring the MFS COMCEN direct on [see Q5] or radio into MFS COMCEN using the Regional Operations Talkgroup with the callsign 'Adelaide Fire'. COMCEN operators may also ring the brigades ALERTS number.

10. What if an Incident Controller needs to respond additional resources?

The Incident Controller will contact the MFS COMCEN by radio ('Adelaide Fire') or telephone [see Q5] and request additional resources including CFS and non CFS resources.

11. What about CFS resource tracking (Region 1)?

• Responding Brigades will report to 'Adelaide Fire' on TG 124
• They will then proceed to their command and control TG as per the R1 Regional Operations Management Plan and inform 'Adelaide Fire of the TG
• Additional resources responding to the incident will report to 'Adelaide Fire' on TG 124
• 'Adelaide Fire' will inform them of the command and control TG the incident is working on
• Currently, there is no operational requirement for arrival notifications, sit reps, and return to station messages to be transmitted to 'Adelaide Fire', After hours sit reps can still be transmitted to 'Adelaide Fire' dependingon operational activity

[bittenyakka]

Well that resource tracking bit will make going to bushfires on the RIGHT talk group easier.

[Mike]

There was much objection to US nominating a TG and going straight to it.

What it means is - A appliance responding to an incident can sit on a TG without anyone to talk to.

Under the current system appliances will remain on TG 124 until a station/base/person comes online to take the communications from SOCC. The TG allocated is that of the group/person taking command.

this system works well, and ensures that crew always have someone to talk to if needed. Why would you want to go back to a point where you potentially have no-one to talk to??

There are a lot of other issues that came up, but i will let others comment first.

[CFS_Firey]

Mike, can you just clarify that point about resource tracking... 

Does that mean that when responding to an incident, the first responding appliance will nominate a talkgroup to go to, then all appliances will go there.
Until a local station opens up, no sitreps, arrival messages or other messages will be transmitted - unless its after hours and Adelaide fire aren't busy?

[Zippy]

Generally shouldnt the first arriving person to the station open up the radio room and take comm's till say a admin officer,etc arrives...therefore there will always be someone to talk to on your Groups talk group.......and then in a upgraded response: Group base opened up by the groups IMT....

[CFS_Firey]

Generally shouldnt the first arriving person to the station open up the radio room and take comm's till say a admin officer,etc arrives...therefore there will always be someone to talk to on your Groups talk group.......and then in a upgraded response: Group base opened up by the groups IMT....

Many brigades have enough trouble crewing the appliances let alone the station as well!  In my group we frequently run entire incidents through SHQ because no station opens up...

[Mike]

A couple of phrases were uttered quite a bit:

"Im not sure about that" and "what do Adelaide Fire think will happen"

CFS_Firey:

What you interpret from that form is what they initially said, after much discussion and objections it was stated we would continue with what was already happening with SOCC

My GO has told me the SLA was signed off in EARLY MAY.
Without any consultation with firefighters they have come up with a system and signed off on it and there is little at this stage we can do about any issues.

There is a conflict resolution process but it may take up to 3 or 4 weeks for an issue to be fixed.

Dezza

Those first arriving people may be requires as part of the crew leaving the station unmanned. - unfortunatly it does happen leaving an opening for a potential problem under their proposed plan.

There are other issues concerning 'responding to pager times' and defalting to other brigades. To be discussed later....

[CFS_Firey]

Thanks Mike... This is going to be interesting.....

[Zippy]

In my group we frequently run entire incidents through SHQ because no station opens up...

i reckon with the merger its gonna be harder to this...might be more times "more crew required" just to run the radio room...

[Mike]

It is set to become a lot more challenging, particularly if we dont get a straight answer before July 1st...

[TillerMan]

Stuff them just stay on the regional talk group like you do now and they can do it, thats what they get paid for, i'm sure they will cope. What are they going to do sack you.

[Darius]

exactly.  I have it written down in my notes that Mal Watts said that Adelaide Fire will do comms for an incident on the regional ops talkgroup (ie. 124 for R1) until a station/base opens, exactly as SOCC do now.  If none opens they will do it for the whole incident.  I'm sure they don't really want to do that, and will be looking for someone to take comms asap but if no one does, tough luck you stay on 124.

other points: I like the way Mal stated they had spoken to volunteers about it, including regional management committees, COAC and the VFBA.  "Spoken" perhaps (or vaguely hinted more like) but not consulted.  I know for a fact the R1 management committee were not consulted.  And ask the VFBA if they think they were consulted.

I also love that he said there are no changes to the way brigades will interact with Adelaide Fire, apart from using a different name.  Then it turns out that in fact there are a few key things that they want to change.  Personally I think some of the changes are good but it needs to be really clear what exactly is changing otherwise at brigade level people won't know and hence there will be serious stuffups.

I think the overall concept of having one fire comms centre is the only sensible way to go but they don't seem to have realised that they can't have a one size fits all model for every group/brigade in the state.  I also think a few senior CFS staff members need their arses kicked over they way they have handled the whole thing.

[Mike]

I think the overall concept of having one fire comms centre is the only sensible way to go but they don't seem to have realised that they can't have a one size fits all model for every group/brigade in the state.  I also think a few senior CFS staff members need their arses kicked over they way they have handled the whole thing.

Agreed.

[Mike]

Mal may have said those things Darius - but i await for the official written advice saying thats what will occur. It certainly wouldnt be the first time something has been said and something totally different actually happen.

Apart from the actual merger - what do you consider were the other good points?

[SA Firey]

There was much objection to US nominating a TG and going straight to it.

What it means is - A appliance responding to an incident can sit on a TG without anyone to talk to.

Under the current system appliances will remain on TG 124 until a station/base/person comes online to take the communications from SOCC. The TG allocated is that of the group/person taking command.

Just to clarify a couple of things.
The way we respond to a call is staying the same.

MFS page goes out and must be acknowledged within 6 minutes. 4 minutes for EMA brigades.No acknowledgement MFS will ring the ALERTS phone.No answer brigade is defaulted.

Appliance responds on TG124 and remains there as we do now, and when a station or group open we will be advised what talkgroup the incident is running on.

The suggestion that we will have noone to talk to is incorrect.
When other resources are responded they will still call on TG124 and be advised what talkgroup to change to.

Dont forget there are 5 SOCC operators transferring to MFS Comms and are training the MFS Comcen operators in our procedures so it gets done right.
Gary Bau is effectively the MFS Liason in relation to any issues that brigades will have so any issues are dealt with as they arise.
 
The plus of this new system is we are not a stand alone comcen anymore, and there are redundancies in place to cater for a Communication failure which is backed up by SAAS and SAPOL.

The advertising of the "000" number has been in place since March 2006, and brigades should have removed their alarm numbers from all stations,advertising,stationary,etc by now to comply with the SLA.

CFS/MFS had a ministerial directive to put this in place by July 1st.

[Alan (Big Al)]

So if some smart arse from a non ema brigade starts using K-codes are they gonna get a kick up the arse???

Surely if sitreps are kept short and sweet and no unneccesary chit chat, it couldn't be all that hard to remain on 124.
And if the incident escalates and the lead appliance or OIC can handle it they can take comms through their radio on a group talkgroup like we do occasionally now??

[Darius]

Mal may have said those things Darius - but i await for the official written advice saying thats what will occur. It certainly wouldnt be the first time something has been said and something totally different actually happen.

yeah true but in this case if people are not told differently they will keep doing things as they have been.  After 1st July if you respond and Adelaide Fire say "go to talkgroup 120" you should reply "through which station or base?" then if they don't know or say none, you say you will remain on 124 until one opens.

I will be surprised if anything written comes out by 1st July to answer all the questions raised last night (although would be happy to be surprised).

Apart from the actual merger - what do you consider were the other good points?

Well perhaps the biggest single improvement will be that SOCC and MFS Comcen will not have to phone each other to respond brigades (eg. brigades already on MFS direct paging versus those responded by SOCC).  It may also improve the responding of fire appliances to 000 calls taken by the SAAS comcen, or then again maybe not until SACAD comes in.

Other things are MFS have a better set up comcen that SOCC, in terms of redundant power and communications links.  Also apparently better GRN voice recording and automatic existing procedures for fallover to SAAS then SAPOL comcens in the event of overload/failure, prioritising of 000 calls etc.

Things not yet mentioned on here are:
- there is a new phone number to contact Adelaide Fire (although I imagine the old one groups already direct-paged by MFS have will continue to work),
- MFS comcen operators are being trained in CFS procedures and the ex-CFS OCOs are being trained in MFS procedures.  You will not have different types of operators depending if it's a CFS or MFS appliance calling, all operators will be doing all comms,
- Regional Coordination Centres (RCC) will not take over comms on the regional ops talkgroups, even on TFBs (this is obviously paving the way for future changes to talkgroup usage and management when SACAD comes in),
- Adelaide Fire can still assist with weekly pager/siren tests although it sounded to me like they would prefer not to,
- there is no requirement to transmit arrival messages, sitreps, appliances on training, return to station etc messages to Adelaide Fire, it should be to brigade station or group base or RCC (although it wasn't explained what role the RCC will take in operations if they are not answering the regional ops talkgroups), however you can do all the above if you wish, although again sounded like they would prefer not to,
- AIRS reporting remains the same (fax/phone to SOCC), new web-based system coming soon apparently including the ability for groups/brigades to see their call details/stats online,
- no K-codes for CFS appliances and MFS operators will use the appliance names not codes (eg. "Burnside Pumper" not "2919"),
- Air Ops will stay with SOCC for now,
- Gary Bau is the liason and first "port of call" for any problems with responses

Problems raised last night and not resolved are:
- default time of 4 mins or 6 mins? was going to be 4 mins for everyone, suggestion to compromise on 5 mins but really it should stay like it is now (there is no reason for all brigades/groups to be the same)
- issue of Adelaide Fire calling the group ALERTS number to get acknowledgement of receipt of a response page. This one clearly hasn't been thought through and several problems with this approach were raised (it showed a lack of understanding by HQ staff about how many groups operate - which I have to point out could have been discovered by them earlier, and resolved, by consulting with the regional management committees).

anyway that's enough typing from me!!

[5271rescue]

Well when we we in region 5 be informned of all these on going changes?? no one has said anything down here and when I asked some one up the chain(Volunteer) he said he did not know.....

[backburn]

 [issue of Adelaide Fire calling the group ALERTS number to get acknowledgement of receipt of a response page. This one clearly hasn't been thought through and several problems with this approach were raised (it showed a lack of understanding by HQ staff about how many groups operate - which I have to point out could have been discovered by them earlier, and resolved, by consulting with the regional management committees]

What would the issue be??

[ltdan]

Fellow Fire-figthers,

I have read everything you are saying but I think you need to step back from the issue and take the following points down.

You as a volunteer give the fire service a resource or plainly put it "free labour".  The fire service teaches you life to life skills everyday on and off the job.  You as a volunteer DO NOT have to be consulted in what they are going to do.  You as members of the service take orders from the officers above.  We all know this as this is what we call the "chain of command".  Therefore if they want to change the system to whatever they want they can do this is, and if you can't get over it well that's tough luck.

The Service could of given the volunteers a different approach with this and basically handed you a flyer saying this is what is going to happen and you need to bring your brigade and group SOP's in line with these new dispatch procedure which are going to occur.

But the service did not do this, in fact what they did is gave every member the opportunity to attend these meetings and give members the opportunity to understand what is going to occur and clarify any issues you may have.  The fire service is trying to get you involved to help you understand the system and get you to move in a positive step forward prior to SACAD.

What the CFS do not want is people bitching and complaining the way in which is occurring now and sadly with the attitude of some people a non-factual article  could be produced in the paper and cause "KAOS" within the community.  (I hope this does not occur.)

In fact if you look at the proposal this is exactly what the 30 cfs brigades which are currently on SAMFS BOMS do now.  We get a page from MFS inform MFS of the page and then just do our job as normal.  CFS have used MFS BOMS for over 10 years and have not at this stage had an issue which could not be resolved or a issue of service not being delivered.

The new system will make it easier for brigades, maybe some brigades will need to slightly change their way in they operate.  "So what".  Just do it and make it happen.  But really you are doing the same thing as you do now.  Currently if you are not on the SAMFS BOMS system and you a paged by SOC you still confirm the page with SOC instead confirm with "Adelaide Fire".

It is now even easier for all parties BOMS brigades and NON-BOMS BRIGADES as you have different options in confirming that page.

SAMFS don't want you to learn K-codes in fact from my understanding they are trying to get rid of them in their own organisation.

As said by a Captain last night it is sad that if so many people can't understand what is going to occur it makes it very scary as this new procedure is exactly the same as you use.

No disagreeing that brigades which are not in Region 1 will have a slight culture change, and from phonecalls a I have had from regions 3, 6, 5 & 4 they are quite happy of the change and think it is a positive move forward.

For all the right reasons this merger is better for the volunteers and the community and the community is the most important out of all of this.

The State Coordination Centre will still be in CFS H/q and also the CFS intelligent cell will remain the same.  The only thing we are changing is the dispatch. The operational capabilities of a upgraded incident will still be the same as it is.

More options for CFS with this change and more dispatch capabilities will occur with this change.

As discussed this has been proposed for 10 years now so eventually it was going to happen.

I will leave you with this if you can't handle this slight change to your brigade maybe you are in the wrong organisation as their will be bigger and better changes in the next 10 years for both fire services in SA.

All it is, is that some people can not handle change and if this is the case that is disappointing.

Well done!! Govt, SAMFS & SACFS for this change!!

[littlejohn]

Well when we we in region 5 be informned of all these on going changes?? no one has said anything down here and when I asked some one up the chain(Volunteer) he said he did not know.....

Brace yourself Bill:

Naracoorte Town Hall, 26th June 2007 at 2000hrs.


Letter arrived yesterday, inviting a brigade representative.