Author Topic: K12s (Read 8679 times)

bittenyakka · « **on:** May 10, 2007, 09:03:58 PM »

K12 or chain saws with a disc don't seem to make an appearance in CFS.
http://www.stihl.com.au/Products/subcategory.cfm?isubCategoryID=14 Link to what i am talking about

now assuming you can fit them on your truck does any on have any opinions on these?
most people i have suggested them to just say "you don't have enough time" but i would have thought they would be very usful in getting into overly secure structures.

uniden · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2007, 09:24:25 PM »

Other fire services use them all the time. They are ideal for accessing roller doors etc in a hurry.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:00:53 PM »

My point exactly.

Crankster 34 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:55:02 PM »

Some brigades have them, there was some training issues to be sorted out but I believe this is now fixed and they have been given the green light to use them.

fireblade · « **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:24:20 AM »

I think that they're an over rated tool. Have made access to sheds without them by using a hooligan tool or as most new sheds are screwed together with a self drilling hex-head screw a good powered cordless drill or speed brace will do the job.

The entry that way is more controlled; you can easily roll back the sheet of tin with obviously another fire fighter close by with a charged line with no fear of the tool being a danger to either operator unlike a disc cutter. Plus I've seen a few videos where the use of a disc cutter has gone wrong, cutting into things that they should not.

As for entries through roller doors, use of a spreader works and I know the reply that not all brigades carry RCR gear. Why not look at a rapid intervention tool (combi-tool) that way you can cut padlocks, open hardened doors, cut window bars etc. Also this does not mean brigades become instant RCR brigades, but in some remote areas where an RCR brigade is a while away. Brigades with a combi-tool could make access for medical teams, whilst awaiting arrival of a Rescue Appliance.

That's just my opinion, could use the cost of one of them buying some better kit.

uniden · « **Reply #5 on:** May 11, 2007, 05:25:53 PM »

Thats fine fire blade but then you open a bigger can of worms about stowage. Where can you store a combi tool and hydraulic pump on the older Hinos? The locker space is limited at the best of times not to mention OHS issues of lifting heavy equipmet up and down to stow and use it. Disc cutter takes up less space and would surely be quicker to get up and running also. Just need the appropriate training to obviously be conducted before use..

bittenyakka · « **Reply #6 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:18:08 PM »

Well the combi tool sounds more multi use but how much training does it take compared to a k12?

does any one know anything about the blades that these saws use as i have only seen them cut concrete in a civil use with water and specific blades? and in a fire situation they might have to cut through all manner of stuff with out the luxury of being changed for every different medium.

calspec · « **Reply #7 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:48:17 PM »

Demolition saws use a Diamond tipped blade, suitable for cutting through steel and timber. This type of "General Purpose" blade would be used on most if not all saws utilised by emergency services. The type of blade required for cutting concrete is a Tungsten Carbide Tipped (TCT) blade. This type of blade is only suitable for cutting concrete and in most cases would require water cooling. Using it on steel would render it useless in seconds.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #8 on:** May 11, 2007, 07:22:46 PM »

so what happens when you hit steel reo in concrete?

24P · « **Reply #9 on:** May 11, 2007, 07:46:23 PM »

Quote from: bittenyakka on May 11, 2007, 07:22:46 PM

so what happens when you hit steel reo in concrete?

Lots of sparks?

bajdas · « **Reply #10 on:** May 11, 2007, 08:29:20 PM »

This was partially covered in another thread. SES carry the 'quick cut' saws on the trucks and have for many years.

Different blades are designed for steel, rock, concrete, etc. As well as the multipurpose blades.

The last time I saw one used in SES training they had a manual water pump attached to provide collant to the blade when the crew was cutting concrete.

The saw does require extra training & multiple crew to operate. Stowage requirements include coolant water, petrol, spare parts (blades, sparkplug, tools for saw, etc) and crew safety (visor helmet, ear plugs, gloves, etc).

Sometimes a recipro saw is quicker.

But the sparks from using a motorised quickcut on metal (eg part metal roof off that needs to be cut into moveable peieces) is spectacular.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #11 on:** May 11, 2007, 08:45:07 PM »

well I have the Idea that it would be a trained CFS member in BA with full PPC ideally Pbi using it to make rapid entry into building.

when you say Multiple crew How many exactly? could a charged hose supply the water to cool the blade? does the blade require some special coolant? ( fire trucks tend to carry water)

bajdas · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2007, 12:40:59 PM »

Quote from: bittenyakka on May 11, 2007, 08:45:07 PM

well I have the Idea that it would be a trained CFS member in BA with full PPC ideally Pbi using it to make rapid entry into building.

when you say Multiple crew How many exactly? could a charged hose supply the water to cool the blade? does the blade require some special coolant? ( fire trucks tend to carry water)

The water washes the cut material away, provides some moisture at the cutting edge which keeps the blade cool.

So if you can direct the 'charged hose' at the blade point without soaking the operator, motor and flinging muck everywhere then yes this would work. But seems an overkill when the charged hose could be used elsewhere.

The SES exercise was a USAR rescue.

The crew were cutting a hole in the side of a concrete loading platform and later through a concrete roof. The crew consisted of quickcut operator, water pump operator and observer. The observer makes sure everyone is safe and the operator is cutting the correct spot/depth.

Another portion of rescue team were waiting behind them to complete the rescue when the hold cutting was completed. Normally the people operating the tools step back for the next team to work. They then make sure the area is safe from the tools they are operating.

They were not using BA. How much extra air would you use to operate a heavy motorised saw ? Does the operator really need to be in BA ?

If you are cutting metal and have a generator, then the electric recipro saw (large jigsaw) is a lot lighter and quicker. Just need to make a hole for the saw to start in.

Otherwise, callout the local SES Unit to bring their equipment to the job. Lets share the resources

bittenyakka · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2007, 01:07:10 PM »

Well ideally the operator would be be wind but cutting into a burning building smoke could be anywhere. Mabey we should conduct some trials about increased air usage while using these?

No offense but my local SES wouldn't get here in time the door probably would have burnt away

fireblade · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2007, 07:43:20 PM »

Like i said the majority of incidents my brigade responds to is structure/ RCR incidents and a lot of them are with the MFS who hardly use them.

Hooligan tool, power drill, speed brace, bolt cutters and urban entry tools will get you in anywhere and safer.

Combi tool was just an alternative and would not take up much more room than a disc cutter plus you can buy them as a manual pump or a battery pack option now days.

If the saws are such a great tool why have CFS asked Brigades to remove them off appliances such as Nurioopta and banned Salisbury CFS running training courses in the use of them.

As a USAR tool they have a place, I know MFS have them and i have family in that service that dont rate them.

uniden · « **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2007, 07:50:48 PM »

Probably cause CFS have some strange ideas. They are also slow/hesitant to permit non standard stowage on appliances due to liability of things going wrong. If CFS dont have a certified course for disc cutters I guess they wont let you use them.

fireblade · « **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2007, 08:30:02 PM »

I've just got a fear of some volunteer Fire fighter hurting themselves with one. At some brigades guys struggle to keep up their skills in B.A. etc and thats with not handing them a tool that can take of arms.

As its a tool you would use at minimal incidents, so you have concerns of crews being familiar with them.

They create sparks, petrol engine, heavy and cumbersome. Plus in a lot of occasions you don't know what you could be cutting into.

JamesGar · « **Reply #17 on:** May 14, 2007, 12:56:25 PM »

Two products which I think are much more suitable to firefighting operations:

http://www.makita.com.au/product.asp?ContentID=BJR181RF

http://www.makita.com.au/product.asp?ContentID=BSS610RF

I;ve used the K12's, cutting through security door at the Mitcham Shopping centre fire and found it to be extremely cumbersomes, torquey (twisting when in use) and dangerous - significant amounts of sparks and fumes.

The 18volt system, although not as powerful as the petrol powered product have the following benefits:

Quick to change blades (lots of blade options)
Light weight
Much safer to use (Circular saw has a trigger break)
Flexible purpose - can be used for practically anything - RCR, structural access, recipro saw is great for taking tech screw heads offf.
Good battery life
low noise

List goes on. Great product and I think overs much more flexibility in the emergency environment.

I'm not a salesman either!

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #18 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:53:13 PM »

Someone told me disc cutters only require a chainsaw certificate as far as CFS is concerned. Has anyone else heard that?

bittenyakka · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2007, 06:39:17 PM »

i heard that on this forum Don't ask were tho.

SA Firey · « **Reply #20 on:** May 17, 2007, 02:46:24 AM »

Anything to do with making our job easier as far as access into a premises and carrying extra stowage seems to be a nono with CFS, much like trying to get Oxy Viva's on an appliance.Funny how almost all other fire services seem to have them on board except us as standard stowage.

fireblade · « **Reply #21 on:** May 17, 2007, 04:37:44 PM »

Oxygen therapy kits should be on a least one appliance at each station as well as having defib machines strategically placed around the state. The only real good thing a disc cutter is good for are roller shutters, got in everywhere else with out them.

Wonder what the reason is for no oxygen therapy kits. Not like it is hugely expensive to train a few guys in the use of.

MFS have them and industrial services like BHP in Roxby and Santos in Moomba have them.

Author Topic: K12s (Read 8679 times)

uniden

uniden

uniden